Leatt Braces... someone had to say it

Capricorn · Jul 16, 2011

interesting question, especially given gwin hasnt had a major crash to warrant the brace in the first place (unlike Gee via Affy's situation, and Hill after his massive stack at Fort Bill last season). So why did gwin wear it, and then ditch it? e-spec aside, i'm curious to the answer from the team.

My personal experience is, it feels better without the brace on, and understandably so. The extra movement yields more confidence.

fred.r · Jul 16, 2011

Honestly I don't notice mine at all when riding. A buddy of mine says I look stiffer when I wear it, but I can't feel it. Either way though, slower or not, I'll keep it on. I'm not getting paid to ride, I race for fun and hope to continue to do so, so the added protection is welcomed.

Norther · Jul 16, 2011

Well, how about making neck brace as a mandatory safety equipment by the rules such as helmet? Hate it or not, everyone should use it. No more speculations how it effects to race times. Making the sport also more safe.

troy · Jul 16, 2011

Maybe you shopuld try ortema neck brace : http://www.speedbrain.de/index.php?a=628&lang=eng IIRC yamaha mx team uses them and some dh guys as well.

supercow · Jul 16, 2011

An interesting question, however ultimately we will not get an answer to this.

That said other factors, such as Gwin's increased training, Gee's bad luck, Hill fighting obesity was stripped out of your example. If put those back in (along with a plethora of others) , neck braces do not seem such an evil does it?

RMboy · Jul 16, 2011

I think your right mate. It does seem odd. However i think many other factors are influencing it too.

However i really want to know do people really think they make a difference in a crash?

None of us used to wear them. And most of us are ok... Now all i hear is "man my neck brace saved me, i felt the brace take the impact"..

Well of course you did its stoping your head from going back!! A few years back when u crashed with out it you just said " Sh*t thank god im all right, i will keep my head up next time"

Not to mention they poor load placement. Who diverts an impact load to the top part of the spine... Its a little crazy, its such a weak point.

Also im sorry but have to say it. (correct me if im wrong) the brace is meant to snap when loading becomes to great...LOL So thats awesome. It snaps where does the load go then. It wont just disappear, it has to go somewhere. Why not deform like a car. You dont see cars just saying "yeah it snaps to save you" It deforms to absorbe the impact.

(if im wrong about the snapping then forget the last part)

I am an Industrial designer, so if i have got some engineering wrong then feel free to correct i dont mind.

Rant over.

jekyll991 · Jul 16, 2011

My astars one definitely hindered me the one time I used it for DH. I already have the bad habit of looking too close to my front tire rather than down the trail. With the neck brace you have to keep your head down and use your eyes to look, which is hard for someone with already bad habits. Also the astars doesn't have any padded material so any drop or bump over a foot or so results in an enormous thud that is very distracting.

Riding moto I never know I have it on.

WParsons · Jul 16, 2011

DH racing is a huge mental game. If you feel that wearing too much gear will make you slower then it probably will. I feel somewhat the same - the less gear I have on the faster I feel.

nowlan · Jul 16, 2011

Mine saved my life, so I wear it.

HardtailHack · Jul 16, 2011

I doubt I will ever own one, I have had two crashes where I have landed vertically on my shoulders with my chin resting on my chest.

If I had a Leatt on I'd imagine the chin(?) on the helmet would have acted like a fulcrum as it hit the brace possibly loading my spine up more. I can walk and I don't really see me having a worse crash any time soon, if I become a Quad I'll get someone to type a reply so you can all say "I told ya so!"

I am probably wrong with the whole fulcrum thing but I think being able to move your head without restriction is more important(to me) than having something that limits movement when you crash.

Kevin · Jul 16, 2011

I have the same with wearing body armor.
If a track is really gnarly Ill try and wear it but I usually ride like crap.
Then when I take it off I start riding much more confident and less sketch...

I was thinking about buying a leat but you kinda ruined it with your thread.
If I crash and injure my spine next time Because Im not wearing a leat I hold YOU fully responsible and you will hear from my lawyers...

squiby · Jul 16, 2011

I never thought I would need a leatt. I have crashed a lot. On a moto I had me crashes dialed! Rolling out, ditching, laying the bike over...even managed to surf the bike down the fireroad after it was laid over on a few high speed washouts. I always thought I would have time/instinct to tuck, spin out, what ever. Last year (on my DH bike) I smacked my head back a couple of times going over in rock gardens. One high speed, wrong line, went over, looked for landing and took it in the face, instantaneous. The other slower speed went off line a little and caught the top of me head on a out crop wrenching it back. I was surprised both times how f***ed up my neck was. :shocked:

Seems to me on a bicycle the bike has less momentum as the rider is the heaviest component in the package. Compared to moto, this leads to more scorpion type crashes as the bike gets taken from under you. Got a leatt now and have since had another high speed crash that cracked my helmet and snapped the tail off the leatt. I felt that in that crash it definitely saved me from injury. Through the impact my head and chest felt locked together like a unit. No neck pain after. Got a D3 helmet and don't notice the brace at all. in fact I rode once without it and felt naked. I guess it just comes down to what your used to and your priorities. IMO DH bike crashes put your neck in danger more than other sports. I don't think the brace makes you slower. A lot of younger racers that are now getting podiums are wearing them. They are going faster than they were before. Leatt has got my vote. :thumb:

WParsons · Jul 16, 2011

Take a look around at all the paralyzed mountain bikers and mx'ers and I wouldn't question a slight loss in speed or comfort.

....and yes you can wear a pack with all those braces. I wear one on the moto and there aren't any issues. I've owned the EVS and a Leatt brace.

Shepherdwong · Jul 16, 2011

I wear one all the time and have crashed a bunch of times wearing it but never once has it saved my ass. What I have noticed though is that it has never affected my ability to tuck and roll which is a pleasant surprise.

gemini2k · Jul 16, 2011

Norther said:
Well, how about making neck brace as a mandatory safety equipment by the rules such as helmet? Hate it or not, everyone should use it. No more speculations how it effects to race times. Making the sport also more safe.

Ya except there's really no evidence that it actually does anything. In fact, aren't the different brands designed to help in completely different kinds of crashes and loads.

Capricorn · Jul 16, 2011

there is no doubting the safety value of a neck brace (note, not supporting one over the other here), but the question is, why would a top flight rider such as Gwin then actually not wear it. I dont care what sort of training you do, no one's neck is that strong to survive without injury, crashes at WC rider speeds, where the neck brace comes into it's own.
Is Gwin that cocky, or is it simply a question of probability of crash versus the certainty of being slowed down: risk it to get the biscuit...

Squilby also touches on the other mitigation against neck brace discomfort, and that is a properly compatible lid. I have a THE lid that is marketed as Leatt brace compatible, and feels way better than my 2010 Fox rampage lid that properly interfered with the Leatt brace.
Hoping to get a D3 at some point.

JCL · Jul 16, 2011

All my friends say it has taken them over a year to fully get used to wearing a brace. I'm a month in and I'm definitely not as fast/loose on the bike but I'll keep using it for a while yet.

intensified · Jul 16, 2011

Great thread,,,been thinking about trying one. They are expensive and look like they are hot and cumbersome.
Can they really save you a serious I wonder, after reading what they say its compelling.

gemini2k · Jul 16, 2011

Capricorn said:
there is no doubting the safety value of a neck brace

Really? Why don't football players wear neck braces. They probably have an order of magnitude more neck injuries than mtb/moto people. They instead seem strengthen their necks and maintain flexibility. (Not claiming to be an expert, just making an observation)

My guess is that there's a reason bodies evolved to have flexible necks. Again, can anyone point to a study that conclusively proves the neck braces actually reduce injuries? I am genuinely interested in such a study. I've considered getting a neck brace bust just can seem to convince myself that they'll actually improve my chances in a crash.

Capricorn · Jul 16, 2011

yes really. also, the evolution angle doesnt apply cos we not evolved to deal with highspeed accidents. But feel free to explain which magnitude and force of nature our necks have evolved to deal with.

Also, i used neck braces to imply all of them out there, as none of them individual cover again all neck injury types.

I'm in the "some protection is better than nothing" camp, and i wont lie, it's driven by an element of fear, that i'll go have a blast one day, and not be able to work the next, saddled with medical bills that will tank my lifestyle. Maybe it's a con, or maybe it's just a hedge against an extremely low probability event, albeit the consequences could be life changing or life-ending.

I've read some stuff on the Leatt website, and it seems reasonable. Maybe read up yourself Gemini, and if that bit of marketing is found wanting, request a summary of their scientific evaluations (if they'll let u have it).

squiby · Jul 16, 2011

gemini2k said:
Really? Why don't football players wear neck braces. They probably have an order of magnitude more neck injuries than mtb/moto people. They instead seem strengthen their necks and maintain flexibility. (Not claiming to be an expert, just making an observation)

My guess is that there's a reason bodies evolved to have flexible necks. Again, can anyone point to a study that conclusively proves the neck braces actually reduce injuries? I am genuinely interested in such a study. I've considered getting a neck brace bust just can seem to convince myself that they'll actually improve my chances in a crash.

Good point about the football players. I don't know the statistics on their neck injuries but did witness a rugby player get a neck injury that killed him when I was in high school. You can not play that game with a neck brace, but the rules have since been modified to make things safer. I think that US football have been considering rule changes due to head and neck injuries.

Regarding the evolution of neck muscles for DH and Moto... I don't think neanderthal man had much time on a downhill bike or anything else that got him up to that speed. He may have indulged in a little football, but Darwin's theory would have those big lugs dying off as they killed each other... meanwhile the skinny guy with the big brain hung back at the cave with the girls keeping them happy...u know wudda mean :banana:

Now here we are with skinny necks and big heads.

The fact we already DH don't say much for our decision making abilities.. :think:

EDIT, That being said, I am not waiting for a conclusive study to make my decision.

DOUBLE EDIT, Looking at the post below... the football player analogy, was not such a good point.

dump · Jul 16, 2011

gemini2k said:
Really? Why don't football players wear neck braces?

They do. Particularly linemen. Prevents the head from rotating back too far.

Bikael Molton · Jul 16, 2011

American professional football is the last sport you want to point to in regards to sensible injury avoidance.

heavy metal · Jul 16, 2011

RMboy said:
A few years back when u crashed with out it you just said " Sh*t thank god im all right, i will keep my head up next time"

If it was this easy I wouldn't have shattered my c7 :rofl:

All it takes is getting thrown over the bars at the wrong angle, or on the wrong incline and pow, you auger like I did. You could end up in a wheelchair pissing in a bag for the rest of your days, luckily I narrowly avoided that scenario.

WParsons · Jul 16, 2011

I would tend to believe that with the amount of testing that has been done (namely the Leatt) I am pretty sure they work. Erring on the side of caution is probably the best thing when we are considering neck injuries. All it takes is for one crash to change your life.

ilfreerider · Jul 16, 2011

check out the movies on the the MOVEO page, sure made me a "believer" !
http://www.moveosafety.com/en/gallery
and some more info here :
http://www.moveosafety.com/en/biomechanics

project_d · Jul 16, 2011

RMboy said:
Also im sorry but have to say it. (correct me if im wrong) the brace is meant to snap when loading becomes to great...LOL So thats awesome. It snaps where does the load go then. It wont just disappear, it has to go somewhere. Why not deform like a car. You dont see cars just saying "yeah it snaps to save you" It deforms to absorbe the impact.

You are coming across as saying that since it offers "some" protection, you would rather have no protection...which is pretty lamein this instance. If you can come up with a better design, then bring it to market. Heck, I would buy one from you.

heavy metal · Jul 16, 2011

Also, the brace failing (snapping) would be the direct physical result of an extreme amount of crash energy being dissipated by the brace. Essentially the energy it took to snap it would have instead been busy snapping your neck. Although I hear it more often redirects energy to things like your collarbone, which nature intended to absorb energy and snap anyway.

aaronjb · Jul 16, 2011

Not playing devil's advocate: Is there any research on the efficacy of neck braces? Is there an "approved" standard for braces? What are the potential downsides?

gemini2k · Jul 16, 2011

dump said:
They do. Particularly linemen. Prevents the head from rotating back too far.

Ehhh, nothing as "invasive" as a leatt though. Definitely different in nature.

Kntr · Jul 17, 2011

I just got a Leatt and wore it 3 days at Silver Star. I couldnt get use to it. I had it adjusted so that I had the most movement possible. I took it off and felt that I could ride a lot better. Im not a fan either.

rider151 · Jul 17, 2011

Its just one of those things that you don't want to say "Damn I wish I was wearing that" after the fact (and sure there are plenty of other items and situations that this could be said for). For those arguing that it redirects forces to the upper spine and collar bone; yeah it does seem to do that but I personally would rather have it focus the forces pretty much anywhere other than C1-C7 (hell even C1 through C5 is better than nothing).

Why the football (American or otherwise) comparison got thrown in eludes me....apples to oranges. If we're comparing non-similar things a lot of people still don't wear seat belts.....it doesn't surprise me that a product like this has it those that undervalue it (and probably always will to some extent).

I guess I am one of the fortunate ones who honestly doesn't even notice it when its on (D2 and D3 helmets FWIW) but I feel naked if I'm not wearing it. To each their own, but like someone stated earlier I'm not getting paid to race, and even if it were to add seconds to my race runs at least in the event of a bad get off it increases the chance that I MIGHT have a better outcome. This is one item I would like to see adopted as mandatory at race venues in the near future.

rigidhack · Jul 17, 2011

Kntr said:
I just got a Leatt and wore it 3 days at Silver Star. I couldnt get use to it. I had it adjusted so that I had the most movement possible. I took it off and felt that I could ride a lot better. Im not a fan either.

I had exactly this experience when I first started riding with a full face helmet. Took a lot more than 3 days to get used to it. Come to think of it, I had a similar experience when bike helmets were first introduced on a large scale (yeah, I'm old, so what?). Took a while to get used to them too.

I ride with an Omega brace now. Won't ride DH without it either.

JCL · Jul 17, 2011

gemini2k said:
Ehhh, nothing as "invasive" as a leatt though. Definitely different in nature.

F1 drivers have stronger necks than anyone. Have you seen the Hans Device that they wear?

RMboy · Jul 17, 2011

project_d said:
You are coming across as saying that since it offers "some" protection, you would rather have no protection...which is pretty lamein this instance. If you can come up with a better design, then bring it to market. Heck, I would buy one from you.

Well im not really. In fact i think that its better to be as protected as possible.

All other amour does its job as its meant to (hopefully)..

But because this one is protecting such a fragile part, im a little more concerned that it actually works and save me. Rather than causing further issues from it either been poorly designed or not having the proper research.

I have yet to see any studies or medical trails proving this point.??

But really believe me, if the majority of people felt they made a difference and they where made compulsory at races i would understand that.

LOl funny you said if i designed one. I actually did for my Bachelors. :thumb:

I heard POC do not believe in the whole neck brace system. They are looking at helmet to help reduce hypotension and hyperflextion

RMboy · Jul 17, 2011

heavy metal said:
Also, the brace failing (snapping) would be the direct physical result of an extreme amount of crash energy being dissipated by the brace. Essentially the energy it took to snap it would have instead been busy snapping your neck. Although I hear it more often redirects energy to things like your collarbone, which nature intended to absorb energy and snap anyway.

Thats fair enough. Its a valid point.

But we used to crash before and that energy did nto seem to brake our necks.

MarkDH · Jul 17, 2011

About half the questions in this thread could be answered by taking a look at the Leatt FAQ: http://www.leatt-brace.com/customer-support/faq/#383

I wear one every time I put on my full face helmet, along with a Dainese spine guard. It felt strange at first, but what doesn't? For me, the minor decrease in flexibility is more than compensated for by the confidence that I've done everything reasonably possible to protect my CNS, short of stopping riding. I wouldn't base what precautions I take on what WC pros are doing, for a number of reasons.

Some people don't buy that it'll do anything. Some people think it's fine to backflip a BMX out of concrete bowl with no helmet on. It's your personal decision, and you live with the consequences. What p*sses me off is people (either online or in person), who are not in full possesion of the facts, spouting their opinion aggressively or in a mocking way and putting people off who are considering buying a brace. It's out of line. Fair enough telling someone 'Oh these tyres/pedals/bars are sh!t', but don't try and persuade someone to take less precautions when it comes to safety equipment.

cecil · Jul 17, 2011

i watched one of my co workers fly off his 4 wheeler racing at unadilla and harpoon the ground like a lawn dart. he was wearing the alpinestar brace, the impact broke the back tail piece off the brace it gave him a huge bruise on his back but he walked away.(real world testing, no computer simulation)

i bought the alpinestar brace (my helmet is a fly racing F2) i dont even notice its there, i ware my camel back, and i have had the gopro chest mount on with it also.

one of my dh buddys has a leat its way different than the alpinestar looks bulky

Leatt Braces... someone had to say it

Turbo Monkey

Monkey

Dwangus Bogans

Chimp

Turbo Monkey

Monkey

Monkey

Monkey

Chimp

Monkey

used an iron once

Turbo Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Chimp

Chimp

Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Monkey

Monkey

Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Monkey

Chimp

Turbo Monkey

goofy for life

Monkey

Chimp

Monkey

Chimp

Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Chimp

Turbo Monkey

Monkey

Monkey

Monkey

Monkey

Turbo Monkey