Leatt Braces... someone had to say it

HardtailHack · Jul 17, 2011

MarkDH said:
About half the questions in this thread could be answered by taking a look at the Leatt FAQ: http://www.leatt-brace.com/customer-support/faq/#383

I wear one every time I put on my full face helmet, along with a Dainese spine guard. It felt strange at first, but what doesn't? For me, the minor decrease in flexibility is more than compensated for by the confidence that I've done everything reasonably possible to protect my CNS, short of stopping riding. I wouldn't base what precautions I take on what WC pros are doing, for a number of reasons.

Some people don't buy that it'll do anything. Some people think it's fine to backflip a BMX out of concrete bowl with no helmet on. It's your personal decision, and you live with the consequences. What p*sses me off is people (either online or in person), who are not in full possesion of the facts, spouting their opinion aggressively or in a mocking way and putting people off who are considering buying a brace. It's out of line. Fair enough telling someone 'Oh these tyres/pedals/bars are sh!t', but don't try and persuade someone to take less precautions when it comes to safety equipment.

Just read the FAQ's and they do seem quite well written and explain as you said many questions on here, but if every company lived up to everything they promise you wouldn't have questions like this popping up.

I do believe the Leatt is a good thing but people have opinions and some have owned one and found it restrictive enough to make it annoying, to them that may end up being more dangerous than not wearing it.

On a different note, wouldn't you be more likely to get spinal damage by copping a rock or a tree to the spine?

yopaulie · Jul 17, 2011

It is all personal preference...period. Saying that it should be mandatory at races is ridiculous...my safety is MY responsibility, no one elses. This would make racing even more exclusive and expensive. I dont mean to sound like a dick but we need more personal responsibility (especially in the USA) not less.

jekyll991 · Jul 17, 2011

Haven't read much more of the thread, but let me say I am glad I had my astars one on last night during my moto race. After getting the holeshot I got crossed up on a small double that I hit around 30mph, went nine kinds of sideways through the air as soon as the tires touched the ground I got bucked and lawn-darted into the ground, and slammed my knee on... something. Haven't figured out what. My bike hit the ground hard enough to bend/pull the handle bar mount bolts out of the triple clamps, pull my grip off, and knock my radiator guard off.

I can't walk on my right leg right now, my back hurts, and my face hurts because my goggles or the top of my helmet got shoved into my nose and cheeks, but my neck is perfectly fine. There is a nice scratch on the neck brace where i can tell my helmet made contact. I do think it knocked the breath out of me more than if I didn't have it on, but I'm okay with that.

frorider · Jul 17, 2011

For some reason (effective marketing?), many dh riders only seem to consider the Leatt. Try other brands too. My omega is adjusted so that I can look down the trail normally, but restricts past that point.

If my brace forced me to ride with my chin down and my eyes tilted up, I'd sell the damn brace.

RMboy · Jul 17, 2011

MarkDH said:
About half the questions in this thread could be answered by taking a look at the Leatt FAQ: http://www.leatt-brace.com/customer-support/faq/#383

I wear one every time I put on my full face helmet, along with a Dainese spine guard. It felt strange at first, but what doesn't? For me, the minor decrease in flexibility is more than compensated for by the confidence that I've done everything reasonably possible to protect my CNS, short of stopping riding. I wouldn't base what precautions I take on what WC pros are doing, for a number of reasons.

Some people don't buy that it'll do anything. Some people think it's fine to backflip a BMX out of concrete bowl with no helmet on. It's your personal decision, and you live with the consequences. What p*sses me off is people (either online or in person), who are not in full possesion of the facts, spouting their opinion aggressively or in a mocking way and putting people off who are considering buying a brace. It's out of line. Fair enough telling someone 'Oh these tyres/pedals/bars are sh!t', but don't try and persuade someone to take less precautions when it comes to safety equipment.

Mate no one on here as mocked anyone. LOL

No one has really said to buy or not to buy. Its more like there has not been any real medical trials to prove it. Thats all.

I think most people want to believe. Just need a little more than a companies FAQ.

Bikael Molton · Jul 17, 2011

Helmets... someone had to say it.

Saying that helmets should be mandatory at races is ridiculous...my safety is MY responsibility, no one else’s.

Toshi · Jul 17, 2011

rpet said:
Helmets... someone had to say it.

Saying that helmets should be mandatory at races is ridiculous...my safety is MY responsibility, no one elses.

Where's your legally valid release stating that you'll decline EMS transport, a helicopter ride to the hospital, and all medical treatment offered unless you can demonstrate currently effective insurance coverage or an ability to pay the bills in full at time of treatment?

rider151 · Jul 17, 2011

yopaulie said:
It is all personal preference...period. Saying that it should be mandatory at races is ridiculous...my safety is MY responsibility, no one else’s. This would make racing even more exclusive and expensive. I don’t mean to sound like a dick but we need more personal responsibility (especially in the USA) not less.

I agree wholeheartedly with regards to personal responsibility. I absolutely think that people should have the right to prove Darwin knew what he was talking about. That said you'd better be able to prove you have full coverage health insurance come race day because it is bull**** if I have to pay one penny for anyone's preventable stupidity. If you have seen medical bills for anything with neuro damage then I would hope you would agree. Personal responsibility in this case would start with health insurance. I guarantee you a good number of racers on the gate don't have any (and exorbitant insurance prices are a topic for another day....). I still would like to see this as mandatory in the future simply for the fact that it can help prevent life altering injuries, and secondly because of the health insurance issue.

MarkDH · Jul 17, 2011

RMboy said:
Mate no one on here as mocked anyone. LOL

No one has really said to buy or not to buy. Its more like there has not been any real medical trials to prove it. Thats all.

I think most people want to believe. Just need a little more than a companies FAQ.

Sorry, should have made myself more clear. This thread has been a reasonable discussion (so far...), but there have been threads in the past where a number of brash statements have been made. Stuff like 'I've never worn one, but I don't see how they can work/my mate says his broke his collarbone/other unfounded reason not to use one'. And the classic 'It's just a fashion accessory for rich kids to copy the pros'.

I'm not trying to have a go at anyone, I just think a lot of people come on here for help with a lot of aspects of riding, and it annoys me when they find misinformed opinions about a potentially life saving device which are made to come across as fact.

As for the lack of medical trials, the closest you are going to get are the dummies used by Leatt and other companies to measure the various forces involved. Unless someone wants to volunteer to lawn dart without a brace and see how they get on of course! I think with the (relatively) small user group and the short amount of time that the braces have been available, it will take a bit longer to gather any meaningful stats. For now I'm willing to place my trust in the doctors and biomechanical guys that tell me it should work.

tacubaya · Jul 17, 2011

So, who's making one?

Leatt
Omega
Alpinestars
Moveo
Ortema

Any more?

Trekrules · Jul 17, 2011

tacubaya said:
So, who's making one?

Leatt
Omega
Alpinestars
Moveo
Ortema

Any more?

Ufo Plast but that one is pretty ugly.

jekyll991 · Jul 17, 2011

tacubaya said:
So, who's making one?

Leatt
Omega
Alpinestars
Moveo
Ortema

Any more?

Foam pool noodles + duct tape.

To add to this post:

jekyll991 said:
Haven't read much more of the thread, but let me say I am glad I had my astars one on last night during my moto race. After getting the holeshot I got crossed up on a small double that I hit around 30mph, went nine kinds of sideways through the air as soon as the tires touched the ground I got bucked and lawn-darted into the ground, and slammed my knee on... something. Haven't figured out what. My bike hit the ground hard enough to bend/pull the handle bar mount bolts out of the triple clamps, pull my grip off, and knock my radiator guard off.

I can't walk on my right leg right now, my back hurts, and my face hurts because my goggles or the top of my helmet got shoved into my nose and cheeks, but my neck is perfectly fine. There is a nice scratch on the neck brace where i can tell my helmet made contact. I do think it knocked the breath out of me more than if I didn't have it on, but I'm okay with that.

Now that the day has gone one my neck is getting more sore, but it's mainly muscular and near my shoulders rather than my spine. Here's some photos of my "brand new" Kali Prana helmet to show exactly how precise the term lawn-dart was for my crash.

I can't say whether or not I would have been seriously hurt had I not had the brace on, but I'd like to think the $185 I spent on it was worth it

.

Whoops · Jul 17, 2011

Trousers...someone had to say it.

I feel waaaay more comfortable riding with my wanger flapping around.

heavy metal · Jul 17, 2011

My runs are consistently two to four seconds quicker when I ride with my wang in the breeze, I've timed it I should know! I can't believe pros are still wearing shorts on their race runs!

Mulestar · Jul 17, 2011

Sounds like you need to learn to look ahead with your eyes and not with your head.

iRider · Jul 18, 2011

yopaulie said:
It is all personal preference...period. Saying that it should be mandatory at races is ridiculous...my safety is MY responsibility, no one elses. .......

It should also be your responsibility to decide what clothes you want to wear but still UCI forces everybody to wear baggy pajamas so that the pro riders clothing sponsors are happy. :rant:

It is a sport in which a governing body makes the rules that everybody who wants to participate has to obey. And there are worse things that they can ask you to wear than protective gear.

Mr Nug · Jul 18, 2011

bdamschen said:
It also seems this same sort of thing is affecting world cup riders:

Gee Atherton- fast last year, hard time getting sorted this year, just started racing with a brace.

Sam Hill- doesn't seem to be dominating the way he once was: started wearing neck brace

Aaron Gwin- Wore a brace previously, ditched it, is now killing it.

Throw this one in the mix - Brook MacDonald. Killing it more than ever with a neck brace on. It is possible...

Pslide · Jul 18, 2011

Regarding Gwin, he has pulled out all the stops to win. I get the feeling he will do anything within the rules to go faster and win. I'd guess he felt faster without the brace, thus it went. Just like the pros that don't wear armor. They are willing to risk more to gain fractions of seconds. I, on the other hand, am not.

aenema · Jul 18, 2011

Another note about forcing racers (at least UCI event Pros) to wear neck braces. This would push the evolution of the product making it better for the masses. If a pro thinks he is losing seconds because of restrictions, product is revised. If we think it restricts, we stop wearing or adapt. I think it would be better for everybody involved it they went more mainstream and our market share meant manufacturers valued our input.

Don't have one yet, planning to pick up a Leatt in near future. I broke my neck trail riding when I went over the bars and am lucky I didn't die, very lucky. It would not have helped me then as I was in an XC lid but those forces that cause neck injury are a very real part of mtn biking.

davec113 · Jul 18, 2011

I think braces work better for some people than others. I have tried on braces but found them too restrictive because I have a short neck, large chest and enormous head (XL moto helmet). My helmet makes contact with my back protector and chest protector before my neck comes close to the limit of it's motion. I would like a brace to protect me from compression in a lawn-dart type accident but any further limit on the motion of my head forward or backward would not be welcome. Other people I ride with do not have the same issues I do.

ChrisKring · Jul 18, 2011

davec113 said:
I think braces work better for some people than others. I have tried on braces but found them too restrictive because I have a short neck, large chest and enormous head (XL moto helmet). My helmet makes contact with my back protector and chest protector before my neck comes close to the limit of it's motion. I would like a brace to protect me from compression in a lawn-dart type accident but any further limit on the motion of my head forward or backward would not be welcome. Other people I ride with do not have the same issues I do.

Check out the alpine stars brace since that is the only failure mode that it was designed to prevent. That said, I disagree with their decision to only protect for one type of impact but anything is better than nothing.

While I 100% agree with personal responsibility, one person getting paralyzed would suck for them and could shut down riding for everyone else due to a lawsuit.

demo 9 · Jul 18, 2011

I dont notice it riding with a D3, i feel it stop my head when i fall(multiple times), thats all i have to say.

kootenaytallboy · Jul 19, 2011

Wait, who won the world champs last year? Oh ya, Sam Hill, wearing a Leatt.

That aside, most of us are only in this for fun. Thus, the risk/reward calculations are necessarily quite different. In other words, NO ONE cares if you're just that little bit slower in [insert any race class except pro].

There is no doubt that some folks just aren't physically suited to a neck brace. However, as this is mountain biking, there aren't that many world rugby types kicking about, so please don't use this as an excuse per se unless you look in the mirror and think, "I could kick Hulk Hogan's ass".

I get that everyone has their protection/freedom of movement compromise. Heck, I wear one, but don't wear back protection. Seems a weird compromise perhaps, but its the one I've struck. However, as in pretty much anything, I'd encourage folks thinking of wearing one to give em an honest try. That means different neck brace/different helmet combos if the 1st setup doesn't work. If you think that's too much money to drop, you'd be right, and you should borrow the stuff to make sure it can work on a trial basis. If you balk at buying the stuff once you've given it a fair shot (and found liveable), consider what its worth to have someone NOT hold/shake/wipe/clean up your business every time you gotta take a nature break. Aside from the hassle of the logistics, actually paying for this will cost you many, many thousands of dollars... more than than say the insurance you pay for to protect that car you haul your bike around with...

Anyways, all this to say that I'd suggest you give it a try. If you find it doesn't work, so be it. But even if that is your conclusion, please analyze it and your reasons why.

One last thing... have you ever tried to pin it without your helmet? Maybe if you wear a neck brace regularly enough, you'll come to have that same naked feeling when you forget your neck brace.

Total Heckler · Jul 19, 2011

I think if anything wearing mine gives me as much or more confidence than before. I think I have actually gotten faster since I started wearing one.

sikocycles · Jul 19, 2011

I wear a D3 and a DBX Leatt with TLD BP7855 and I dont even notice it any more.
I would not DH without it.
Not sure if it slows me down but I rather be a little safer. Not racing so it does not matter.
After seeing how fast Demo9 is I dont think it slows riders down

-BB- · Jul 19, 2011

heavy metal said:
My runs are consistently two to four seconds quicker when I ride with my wang in the breeze, I've timed it I should know! I can't believe pros are still wearing shorts on their race runs!

Well maybe in your case, but for me, if I had mine dangling in the breeze it would be a HUGE aerodynamic disadvantage.
:thumb:

Toshi · Jul 19, 2011

-BB- said:
Well maybe in your case, but for me, if I had mine dangling in the breeze it would be a HUGE aerodynamic disadvantage.

Really? I thought it'd have worked like the dimples on a golf ball, helping it to fly farther :shocked:

Cant Climb · Jul 19, 2011

There was a post last year where a RM member fell 5 meters on his head in France. Broke nearly every bone in his back, broke his Leatt but his c1,c2 were fine....

Tried a search for the post but couldn't find it......

max.broman · Jul 19, 2011

I've been looking for a brace for some time, and I really need one. So reading this thread, I'd like to know, what's a good one, that's cheap? I don't need it to be the best, I'm no WC rider, but I still need some protection. Thanks.

heavy metal · Jul 19, 2011

Cant Climb said:
There was a post last year where a RM member fell 5 meters on his head in France. Broke nearly every bone in his back, broke his Leatt but his c1,c2 were fine....

Tried a search for the post but couldn't find it......

That's fvcking hard-core $hit right there. Rep for whoever digs that one up. Makes my neck hurt just thinking about it.

FOXROX · Jul 19, 2011

i ride with the dbx pro (full carbon, non adjustable) and a fox v3 i dont notice it at all. in fact, i feel naked when i ride with out it.

alpine slug · Jul 19, 2011

how often do you take pile-driver hits to the head?

consumer automobiles could be built with roll cages to help you survive when you roll your vehicle.

I would think the smart money would be on self-assessment:

do I ride as if I'm invincible, ignoring risk in favor of maximum speed/air? get a Leatt or whatever.

do I ride with risk in mind, trying to be quick but not risking injury for a few seconds off the clock? then what's my peace-of-mind calculus, how often do I pile-drive?

do I ride very casually, never pushing limits? probably not needed, but the world is full of paranoid safety-nannies who would put their kids in full body armor to walk to the mailbox... these people should use a Leatt for paved commutes at 5 mph!

Toshi · Jul 19, 2011

Your automobile analogy is very, very flawed. Cars are built to survive unlikely events. A result of "good" in the IIHS roof crush test requires a vehicle be able to withstand a force of 4x the vehicle's weight before crushing more than 5 inches.

Myles · Jul 19, 2011

alpine slug said:
how often do you take pile-driver hits to the head?

consumer automobiles could be built with roll cages to help you survive when you roll your vehicle.

I would think the smart money would be on self-assessment:

do I ride as if I'm invincible, ignoring risk in favor of maximum speed/air? get a Leatt or whatever.

do I ride with risk in mind, trying to be quick but not risking injury for a few seconds off the clock? then what's my peace-of-mind calculus, how often do I pile-drive?

do I ride very casually, never pushing limits? probably not needed, but the world is full of paranoid safety-nannies who would put their kids in full body armor to walk to the mailbox... these people should use a Leatt for paved commutes at 5 mph!

If only we could predict on how we fall, this would be an easy answer. Neck injury is probably the worst case scenario a rider can encounter. And I would also add, no need to ride at the speed of light to get a severe injury.

primo661 · Jul 19, 2011

Personally, I agree with the original poster regarding ergonomics. I dont feel comfortable with one on, but my brother swears by it. Its a personal preference thing.

As for the safety factor, I'm going to throw a spanner in the works. No one can doubt that falling is a skill developed over years of doing it. You see pro's stack it and walk away from crashes that you'd be left in a heap after, they're good at it and as a result are good at staying injury free. My claim(to be backed up further down) of being able to affect the outcome of a crash with a certain learned skill suggests that it requires technique and in my mind this technique requires mobility and flexibility, both are limited severely by a Leatte.

Take the following situation, you are on your way over the bars, what do you do? Well most idiots put their arms out and tilt their heads back to see whats coming their way as if resisting Newtons laws will do them good, but they end up breaking their wrists, collarbones and/or injuring their necks. Those of us who know how to fall just tuck and roll, and walk away. But still there are those of us wearing Leattes who cannot tuck our chins to our chests during the tucking and rolling motion and cant get our heads out of the way. Some of which will get up and say "Wow, my Leatte really saved me". What you dont realise is that you wouldnt have needed saving if you werent wearing it and you knew how to fall. And there lies my gripe with a neckbrace.

If you want to see the art of falling demostrated, do yourself a favour and watch a Judo tournament(Amateur, not olympic level though, they tend to option one but this is not a result of poor technique, its an attempt to limit the opponent scoring points). When I was fighting competitively, alot of our training focussed on falling correctly as not to injure ones self. And for good reason, collarbone and neck injuries were a dime a dozen at competitions because of poor falling technique. "Tuck and roll" has been drummed into me since I was 6, and I began to really respect the art when our Sensei, a man in his late 60's fell off a factory roof(really high!!), did a breakfall(the technical term for tucking and rolling), ended up back on his feet and got away with slight shoulder bruising but was otherwise unscathed. Ever since then I've payed alot of attention and placed great value on my necks range of movement. I've had more than my fair share of scorpions and I've never come out with even a stiff neck. I've come down onto my head from 6 meters up, resulting in a stay in icu and a written off helmet and broken spine protector but my neck suffered naught, because I tucked and rolled according to my brother who watched it. I did what had been taught to me since first grade.

Alot of rambling for nothing you may think, but my point is that with the correct technique, injury to the neck can be minimised to a greater degree in my mind than by wearing a Leatte. A Leatte impairs movement and affects the way we can contort our bodies when trying to use the correct technique during a fall and because of this, it may cause more damage to the head because the neck is unnaturally more rigid and cannot bend to absort the blows to the head. This along with giving us the impression that it saved our necks because we are left with a concussion, trashed helmet and possibly Leatte and no neck injury but in actual fact, tucking and rolling may have been a safer option because the head/neck area may have been moved to a place where they may not have even impacted the ground. Anyways, those are my opinions on this overly generalised subject and however badly they may be articulated, I feel they have substance.

alpine slug · Jul 19, 2011

Toshi said:
Your automobile analogy is very, very flawed. Cars are built to survive unlikely events. A result of "good" in the IIHS roof crush test requires a vehicle be able to withstand a force of 4x the vehicle's weight before crushing more than 5 inches.

you work with a very strange definition of "flaw," Toshi.

maybe I should tell you that I have a couple decades of insurance industry experience and know what the IIHS is about... and should advise the audience that your IIHS citation is irrelevant to the point I was making.

it's not cool when you take my argument and re-interpret it wrongly in order to distort and mock it.

no consumer motor vehicle is as safe as one with a roll cage, despite what you are trying to suggest with IIHS "data." I'm pretty sure this is why roll cages are installed in modified consumer vehicles used for racing. and in any case, adding a properly designed roll cage makes a vehicle safer in a rollover... no matter what the IIHS says.

in case it isn't clear yet: I'd agree with the original poster and especially with primo661 above.

Toshi · Jul 19, 2011

Your implication seemed to be that cars without roll cages are unsafe when rolled over, akin to the lawndarting-without-Leatt scenario. I disagree. While adding additional structure will help (assuming a helmet and proper restraints), my IIHS roof crush example was to illustrate that cars are not designed to some minimum level these days but are actually overengineered.

If that wasn't your implication, then that's fine, and I just read it wrong. The way you initially wrote it, that's certainly how I parsed it.

Whoops · Jul 19, 2011

alpine slug said:
...
maybe I should tell you that I have a couple decades of insurance industry experience...

This would seem to explain pretty much everything about your online RM persona, AS. :rolleyes:

I agree with your self assessment protocol, and have chosen to use a Leatt.

Restrictive? Yes, a little - but I consider it (wait for it) an insurance policy against that one bizarre crash that I can't see coming and so am not able (lack of skill primo? muscle memory perhaps) to apply the correct technique to prevent serious injury.

ph4se_1 · Jul 19, 2011

Cant Climb said:
There was a post last year where a RM member fell 5 meters on his head in France. Broke nearly every bone in his back, broke his Leatt but his c1,c2 were fine....

Tried a search for the post but couldn't find it......

That was me. I would be dead if I wasn't wearing it, no I can't prove this but I believe it. 2 of my friends saw me hit a hardpack fireroad head first and leave a 4 inch deep hole in it. Happened last July and I am back riding and racing DH since February or so but I still cannot ride with body armour as it just restricts me too much. After the crash I said I would go with it in the future but I just cant move enough in it to ride DH safely and comfortably. Just wear a brace when riding, it will save your life or at the very least some massive healthcare bills for those without insurance.

Kntr · Jul 19, 2011

primo661 said:
Personally, I agree with the original poster regarding ergonomics. I dont feel comfortable with one on, but my brother swears by it. Its a personal preference thing.

As for the safety factor, I'm going to throw a spanner in the works. No one can doubt that falling is a skill developed over years of doing it. You see pro's stack it and walk away from crashes that you'd be left in a heap after, they're good at it and as a result are good at staying injury free. My claim(to be backed up further down) of being able to affect the outcome of a crash with a certain learned skill suggests that it requires technique and in my mind this technique requires mobility and flexibility, both are limited severely by a Leatte.

Take the following situation, you are on your way over the bars, what do you do? Well most idiots put their arms out and tilt their heads back to see whats coming their way as if resisting Newtons laws will do them good, but they end up breaking their wrists, collarbones and/or injuring their necks. Those of us who know how to fall just tuck and roll, and walk away. But still there are those of us wearing Leattes who cannot tuck our chins to our chests during the tucking and rolling motion and cant get our heads out of the way. Some of which will get up and say "Wow, my Leatte really saved me". What you dont realise is that you wouldnt have needed saving if you werent wearing it and you knew how to fall. And there lies my gripe with a neckbrace.

If you want to see the art of falling demostrated, do yourself a favour and watch a Judo tournament(Amateur, not olympic level though, they tend to option one but this is not a result of poor technique, its an attempt to limit the opponent scoring points). When I was fighting competitively, alot of our training focussed on falling correctly as not to injure ones self. And for good reason, collarbone and neck injuries were a dime a dozen at competitions because of poor falling technique. "Tuck and roll" has been drummed into me since I was 6, and I began to really respect the art when our Sensei, a man in his late 60's fell off a factory roof(really high!!), did a breakfall(the technical term for tucking and rolling), ended up back on his feet and got away with slight shoulder bruising but was otherwise unscathed. Ever since then I've payed alot of attention and placed great value on my necks range of movement. I've had more than my fair share of scorpions and I've never come out with even a stiff neck. I've come down onto my head from 6 meters up, resulting in a stay in icu and a written off helmet and broken spine protector but my neck suffered naught, because I tucked and rolled according to my brother who watched it. I did what had been taught to me since first grade.

Alot of rambling for nothing you may think, but my point is that with the correct technique, injury to the neck can be minimised to a greater degree in my mind than by wearing a Leatte. A Leatte impairs movement and affects the way we can contort our bodies when trying to use the correct technique during a fall and because of this, it may cause more damage to the head because the neck is unnaturally more rigid and cannot bend to absort the blows to the head. This along with giving us the impression that it saved our necks because we are left with a concussion, trashed helmet and possibly Leatte and no neck injury but in actual fact, tucking and rolling may have been a safer option because the head/neck area may have been moved to a place where they may not have even impacted the ground. Anyways, those are my opinions on this overly generalised subject and however badly they may be articulated, I feel they have substance.

Great post. I agree.

Leatt Braces... someone had to say it

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