Carbon V10

frorider said:

The RWS quote above is there standard statement, and is not related to the V10C. RWS just reduces rotational stiction. How is it going to solve your v10c issue? Am I missing something here? I haven't had my coffee yet.

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I would think that with less rotational stiction, the problems that mehukatti described above should be less severe. The screw in the lower link loosening itself and marks on the link suggest that the DU bushing, or rather the shock hardware inside it, isn't rotating as it should.

Tom, I agree. That thought occurred to me after I posted. And made coffee. :grin:

So the v10c has enough flex in that area to make the DU bind rather than rotate? For a frame tested hard by a lot of good riders during development, I'm wondering if something else is going on here? Strange.

I have a Santa Cruz v10 carbon. I have no issues with bolts loosening....

1. The lower bolt on the shock has not loosened one bit, and I am on my second Alpine trip this summer since tightening it.

2. The rear wheel bolt? I'm almost a week in the swiss alps battering the bike every day and it hasn't loosened either.

No issues for me....

slothy said:

So dont know where you came up with that.

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they must be lying then

IH8Rice said:

they must be lying then

Click to expand...

yep sorry , just wrote that without thinking.

Just finished my current ride for the remainder of the 2011 Season and for 2012...

2011 V10C
2010 Dorado Pro
Easton Havoc stem / carbon bar
Hope Pro 2 / Mavic EX721
Shimano Saint bits

Weight: 37.9lbs

About rear wheel loosening.

I have seen pictures of V10.4 carbons with Maxle rear axle without axle pinch bolt and with normal bolt thru axle with pinch bolt, does this have something to do with the problem? I guess the Maxle one is same as Driver8 rear swing arm. But how about trying Maxle to the swingarm with pinch bolt, if Maxle would tighten better than normal bolt thru axle?

Norther said:

About rear wheel loosening.

I have seen pictures of V10.4 carbons with Maxle rear axle without axle pinch bolt and with normal bolt thru axle with pinch bolt, does this have something to do with the problem? I guess the Maxle one is same as Driver8 rear swing arm. But how about trying Maxle to the swingarm with pinch bolt, if Maxle would tighten better than normal bolt thru axle?

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Yeah. That works. I talked to a guy in Whistler that did this. Maybe what you saw was actually a V10 swingarm with a Maxle in it. The Maxle is just like the supplied axle but expands at the end, taking over the job of the malfunctioning pinch bolt.

I think this is really the only safe way to ride the V10 carbon at the moment.

I have not yet done it, because the only Maxle I could find in Whistler was the older, heavy version for 80 Canadian Dollars. So far, my axle has not come loose, even though the pinch bolt doesn't work. But I am definitely a bit scared to be honest. My friend had a nasty crash when his wheel came loose on the landing of a jump.

Early Syndicate Team V10Cs seemed to have Maxle rear end, without pinch bolt.

For current production model, I would try to use Maxle with as long pinch bolt as possible to use all the thread lenght in dropout and blue loctite to secure the pinch bolt. But Maxle should not be overtightened, there might be danger to ruin the dropout or pinch bolt threads. It is worth trying atleast, if there is no compatibility problems.

http://www.tomsbikecorner.de/products/Fahrradteile/Laufraeder/MTB/Enve-AM-MTB-Clincher-Carbon-Laufraeder-Tune-Naben.html

my wheelset came in at 320 EUR with 1950Gramms ...

Norther said:

Early Syndicate Team V10Cs seemed to have Maxle rear end, without pinch bolt.

For current production model, I would try to use Maxle with as long pinch bolt as possible to use all the thread lenght in dropout and blue loctite to secure the pinch bolt. But Maxle should not be overtightened, there might be danger to ruin the dropout or pinch bolt threads. It is worth trying atleast, if there is no compatibility problems.

Click to expand...

So basically you are saying that you think the Maxle would expand too much inside the pinch bolt dropout?

That could be a problem, I guess.

Here's a picture of a current rear maxle:

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=60309

You can zoom in on the expanding part. Inside the quick release is a grub screw that controls how much the expanding (slitted) end expands. I would guess that this should work on the V10, shouldn't it?

tom said:

So basically you are saying that you think the Maxle would expand too much inside the pinch bolt dropout?

That could be a problem, I guess.

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Yes, that is what I was thinking, because pinch bolted dropout is not specifically designed for expanding axle.

Here's a picture of a current rear maxle:

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=60309

You can zoom in on the expanding part. Inside the quick release is a grub screw that controls how much the expanding (slitted) end expands. I would guess that this should work on the V10, shouldn't it?

Click to expand...

I would try, and with 2011 Maxle 12x150mm (The newest is the best design) Starting from small Maxle torque/expansion, increasing it little by little up to sensible amount if axle is still getting loose.

Norther said:

Yes, that is what I was thinking, because pinch bolted dropout is not specifically designed for expanding axle.



I would try, and with 2011 Maxle 12x150mm (The newest is the best design) Starting from small Maxle torque/expansion, increasing it little by little up to sensible amount if axle is still getting loose.

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Wow, google is a nice guy.

http://www.sram.com/_media/techdocs/RearMaxleFrame_ES4-310498-000_B.pdf

This basically says that the non-threaded side of the Maxle dropout should have a diameter of 12.05 mm (with a tolerance of +0.05 mm or -0.02mm), meaning that the expansion of the Maxle can accommodate between 0.03 and .1 mm.

It should be possible to tighten the pinch bolt so that the diameter of the dropout is in that range.

Wow, who could have guessed people would be putting on a rear maxle to solve a problem. Crazy!

Hi guys,
Usually Scott will post in here when things start going sideways but with the tradeshow going on, and september being some prime DH riding season that we wouldn't want anyone to miss or screw up a ride worried about their wheels due to some issue - or the spectre of an issue.

Tom, I'm sorry to hear about your friend's injury. I hope he's recovering well.

Here's what I can tell you with certainty:
The Maxle is used on Driver8 swingarms. Syndicate ran D8 swingarms at the beginning of last year's race season. We ended up making some changes to the V10 swingarm, one of which was to include the solid axle that used a pinch bolt specifically to address Syndicate requests. This same exact system has been used on V10s since 2003, where the right dropout is threaded, the left side has a through hole with a slot.

We've got ~5 V10 test riders that live in Whistler, who are at the park a lot, who run various iterations of both Driver8 and V10 swingarms, front triangles, and links, doing long term durability testing on various ideas. So you may see some weird things out there in the lift line and wonder why - its probably one of them and they've been instructed to make up ridiculous stories when asked because that is fun for us.

At this point, our inside sales rep DanO, our tech support guy Danny, and our warranty guy Willie, all tell me that they have not been contacted by anyone in Canada about an issue like this even once. In fact, we were contacted by one shop in Washington a few weeks back about a single frame, and Willie replied suggested greasing the pinch bolt head and threads (which helps to decrease thread friction increasing clamping force) and not thread the axle (increasing friction) and haven't heard back yet. Was that the "acknowledgement that it is a problem" referred to?

The Syndicate, our privateer sponsored racers, friends, and colleagues ride the same frame as stock (the syndicate just got some new frames for worlds). This hasn't come up from the Syndicate mechanics once, who are very particular about their set-up. I checked in with many of these parties in the last 15 minutes before writing this to make sure that Tom's call hadn't gotten in just after I checked....

I also did an experiment on a dozen frames that were here to see if this is an chronic or design problem. I used a torque wrench, greased the M6 pinch bolt threads and head, and did not grease the wheel axle. The wheel axle was tightened to 35 inch-lbs (good n' snug) - with a hub in place . The pinch bolt was tightened to 90 inch-lbs (our recommendation, which is good n' tight but not crazy). Then I used the torque wrench to loosen the axle. Each required 45-60 inch-lbs to loosen it, and its got a steady amount of that friction, not like a bolt that overcomes the initial friction and then could vibrate loose during riding. Thats a lot of torque to come out. Of course, this only means that on those dozen frames we are good.

Production variation is unavoidable, so there is the possibility that something out there has an issue that made it through. If the "pinch" bottoms out during tightening, contact us so we can replace your swingarm as the hole may be too large. One can also check that the washer and pinch bolt head can spin freely in the counter-bore, as this may cause friction that decreases clamping force. Additionally, paint may be on the threads of the pinch bolt, using an M6 tap to chase them out is a good measure as a precaution. If you need to borrow an M6 tap, email our warranty department and I'll mail you one to use. Also keep in mind that there are frames on the market that just use the axle to thread into the other side (early Saint also did this), with no pinch bolt at all.

We answer the phone here, and respond to email, and take everyone's ride time seriously - my recurring nightmare is that something we made would screw up a ride or cause someone harm.
If there's an issue or even just a question you want the official answer to, just email us info AT santacruzbicycles dot com. No need for conjecture or alarm-ism.
As of two weeks ago, and the one inquiry we had gotten, each swingarm that leaves the building is being checked for this specifically by our frame builders during assembly - the lead builder is an former mechanic at Evolution in Whistler, so you can rest assured he knows the rigors of the bike park. None have yet been found with a problem but we check everything anyway.

And for the record: insane build Christiaan - now you need the ENVE DH rims!

Joe Graney

love how the dude from sc agree's

And for the record: insane build Christiaan - now you need the ENVE DH rims!

Hi Joe,

thanks for taking the time to look into this issue and posting in this thread.

joeg said:

Hi guys,
Usually Scott will post in here when things start going sideways but with the tradeshow going on, and september being some prime DH riding season that we wouldn't want anyone to miss or screw up a ride worried about their wheels due to some issue - or the spectre of an issue.

Tom, I'm sorry to hear about your friend's injury. I hope he's recovering well.

Click to expand...

Yes he is, he's a tough dude.

joeg said:

Here's what I can tell you with certainty:
The Maxle is used on Driver8 swingarms. Syndicate ran D8 swingarms at the beginning of last year's race season. We ended up making some changes to the V10 swingarm, one of which was to include the solid axle that used a pinch bolt specifically to address Syndicate requests. This same exact system has been used on V10s since 2003, where the right dropout is threaded, the left side has a through hole with a slot.

We've got ~5 V10 test riders that live in Whistler, who are at the park a lot, who run various iterations of both Driver8 and V10 swingarms, front triangles, and links, doing long term durability testing on various ideas. So you may see some weird things out there in the lift line and wonder why - its probably one of them and they've been instructed to make up ridiculous stories when asked because that is fun for us.

Click to expand...

Nope, I spoke to the guy for a bit, he had a black-and-white production frame and just put a Maxle in there because his pinch bolt, as he put it, "does nothing".

joeg said:

At this point, our inside sales rep DanO, our tech support guy Danny, and our warranty guy Willie, all tell me that they have not been contacted by anyone in Canada about an issue like this even once. In fact, we were contacted by one shop in Washington a few weeks back about a single frame,

Click to expand...

Yep, that would be our bike shop. We called them up as soon as we noticed the problem. And that was about two bikes.

joeg said:

and Willie replied suggested greasing the pinch bolt head and threads (which helps to decrease thread friction increasing clamping force) and not thread the axle (increasing friction) and haven't heard back yet. Was that the "acknowledgement that it is a problem" referred to?

Click to expand...

I hope I wasn't misinterpreting anything, but the answer I got back via the shop is that replacing the swingarms wouldn't help, because they are all the same, and that you guys are working on the issue.

joeg said:

The Syndicate, our privateer sponsored racers, friends, and colleagues ride the same frame as stock (the syndicate just got some new frames for worlds). This hasn't come up from the Syndicate mechanics once, who are very particular about their set-up. I checked in with many of these parties in the last 15 minutes before writing this to make sure that Tom's call hadn't gotten in just after I checked....

I also did an experiment on a dozen frames that were here to see if this is an chronic or design problem. I used a torque wrench, greased the M6 pinch bolt threads and head, and did not grease the wheel axle. The wheel axle was tightened to 35 inch-lbs (good n' snug) - with a hub in place . The pinch bolt was tightened to 90 inch-lbs (our recommendation, which is good n' tight but not crazy). Then I used the torque wrench to loosen the axle. Each required 45-60 inch-lbs to loosen it, and its got a steady amount of that friction, not like a bolt that overcomes the initial friction and then could vibrate loose during riding. Thats a lot of torque to come out. Of course, this only means that on those dozen frames we are good.

Click to expand...

So first of all, you should communicate to people that this bolt has to be tightened that hard. Because if you tighten the bolt to say 70 in-lbs, the pinch bolt adds virtually no friction, especially if the axle is greased, which I suppose it is on most people's bikes.

On all similar frames and forks that use a pinch bolt, like my old IH Sunday or my old Boxxers, the axle doesn't budge even if the bolt is tightened moderately, say 50 - 70 in-lbs, and the axle is greased.

joeg said:

Production variation is unavoidable, so there is the possibility that something out there has an issue that made it through. If the "pinch" bottoms out during tightening, contact us so we can replace your swingarm as the hole may be too large. One can also check that the washer and pinch bolt head can spin freely in the counter-bore, as this may cause friction that decreases clamping force.

Click to expand...

On our frames, the "pinch" is not bottoming out on itself. A small gap always remains.
However, the drop out is such a solid piece of aluminum that to close the gap even further to really pinch down hard on the axle would require excessive torque on the bolt, more than the 90 in-lbs you suggest.
I guess that the more you pinch, the more the pinch bolt's alignment in the frame and its thread go off-axis making it harder to tighten even more.

joeg said:

Additionally, paint may be on the threads of the pinch bolt, using an M6 tap to chase them out is a good measure as a precaution. If you need to borrow an M6 tap, email our warranty department and I'll mail you one to use. Also keep in mind that there are frames on the market that just use the axle to thread into the other side (early Saint also did this), with no pinch bolt at all.

Click to expand...

If insert from the other side, the axle will tighten instead of loosen itself if there is a problem, like the pedals or the bottom bracket. This is by no means as dangerous!

joeg said:

We answer the phone here, and respond to email, and take everyone's ride time seriously - my recurring nightmare is that something we made would screw up a ride or cause someone harm.
If there's an issue or even just a question you want the official answer to, just email us info AT santacruzbicycles dot com. No need for conjecture or alarm-ism.

As of two weeks ago, and the one inquiry we had gotten, each swingarm that leaves the building is being checked for this specifically by our frame builders during assembly - the lead builder is an former mechanic at Evolution in Whistler, so you can rest assured he knows the rigors of the bike park. None have yet been found with a problem but we check everything anyway.

Click to expand...

It is nice to hear that you are taking this seriously.

On the third V10c in our riding group, the pinch bolt actually works as expected. You insert the (well-greased) axle, tighten the pinch bolt by hand to a reasonable torque and then it's basically impossible to unscrew the axle by hand.

That's how I would like mine to work, instead of being careful to do grease the pinch bolt, but not to grease the axle, and then tighten both as hard as I can for fear of my rear wheel falling out.

Tomorrow, I will measure with a torque wrench how much additional friction my pinch bolt creates when tightened to 90 in-lbs. If it's in the range you measured and you are convinced that it is safe to ride like that, that's great. Otherwise our frames really have a problem with production variation.

OK, you convinced me, at least partially.

I just tried out the same thing you did with the same torque values.

At 60 in-lbs the bolt does nothing. At 70 in-lbs, which is probably what I tightened it to before, the axle becomes a little bit harder to turn, but it is still quite easy to unscrew it.

But if I go up to the 80 in-lbs that you suggested I also believe now that the added friction is enough to prevent the axle from loosening itself while riding like it unfortunately did on my friend's bike.

I'm still puzzled why it is necessary to exert such a strong torque on that bolt to receive such little pinching. Especially since the bolt goes into an aluminum thread, I'm still a bit uneasy with tightening it that much. All other pinch bolt setups (IH Sunday, Specialized Demo, old Boxxers, current Marzocchis) work better.

But at least you've taken my fear of the rear wheel falling out mid-air.

JoeG, any SC response on the other issue discussed in this thread re: lower shock eyelet bolt?

btw Tom thanks for the detailed description of your observations on the pinch bolt. I hope SC realizes that many riders don't always have convenient access to a torque wrench during a day of shuttle- or lift-served riding. Rear wheels sometimes need to be removed.

90 in-lbs may seem like a lot, but thats recommended seating torque for an M6 fastener in titanium. On the V10.2 frame (the first version of the monocoque front triangle), the pinch was recommended at 115 in-lbs - now that was a little excessive. The thread length on V10.4 left dropout was increased from V10.3 because one of our local groms (who is racing Worlds this weekend - go Kiran MacKinnon) stripped his a couple years ago. Every vintage has been made of aluminum threads. To ease your mind, in case threads are stripped, its a thru hole which makes it easy to helicoil repair and then you can have steel threads. Making the dropouts small, so they are very light, makes the pinch stiffer. Its a balancing act. Having to tighten a fastener to an average M6 bolt seating torque didn't seem like a compromise.

fro: you don't need a torque wrench, you just make the thing tight and it doesn't loosen up. If you aren't sure how tight things need to be, sometimes a torque wrench helps calibrate your hand.
re: lower shock eyelet, I've had this happen on my bike (the clunk picking up the seat). It was the DU bushing worn, and after replacing it was OK. The recommended torque on those ti M8 shock bolts is 140 in-lbs (16 Nm). Threads should be greased. Loctite not required or recommended, it uses a nyloc nut.

joeg -- yeah I think we're all very experienced with the idea of calibrating your hand. 20 yrs of wrenching means mine is pretty damn well-calibrated. however Tom's posts strongly suggest that some V10s, due to mfg'ing variance, are more sensitive to getting the torque above a minimum value. Or to put it another way, pinch-bolt setups on other bikes function very well with people hand-tightening to 'very tight', but Tom is saying that this standard approach may not work w/ all v10 rear ends.

Re: lower shock eyelet -- surprised that you would suggest replacing the DU bushing to this audience. :lulz: If you have time, re-read the thread and comment on the actual issue being described.

Friday afternoon before Labor day weekend? How dare you!

joeg said:

The recommended torque on those ti M8 shock bolts is 140 in-lbs (16 Nm). Threads should be greased. Loctite not required or recommended, it uses a nyloc nut.

Click to expand...

How about the upper shock bolts? The same? I don't want to crack the carbon frame there.

tom said:

How about the upper shock bolts? The same? I don't want to crack the carbon frame there.

Click to expand...

tom,
same torque for shock bolts front and rear. The front makes a sandwich that is all aluminum, and the spacing between the frame and shock should be very close, so no carbon should be affected.
It sounds like you got the same results as I got on the frames here wrt rear axle pinch bolt , so that's good. It seems like the frames in question are OK, but a bit more torque on that bolt than what you were familiar with on other pinch bolts and things will hopefully be sorted out.

frorider suggested re-reading the thread:

The comparison used was versus IH Sunday and Boxxer pinch bolts. Those both have two bolts on the pinch. We went the single pinch bolt (made of titanium) and alum axle route for weight savings. 80 in-lbs of torque is not in a range that is abnormal for an M6 bolt, but if you're used to 50 in-lbs, then the hand calibration for pinch bolts might be off. Not communicating the torque specification on that bolt on this model is something I'll work on making sure is available ASAP on the website.

I love that Christiaan's bike has become an international benchmark...very well done, i like building nice bikes but this is another level.

joeg said:

The comparison used was versus IH Sunday and Boxxer pinch bolts. Those both have two bolts on the pinch. We went the single pinch bolt (made of titanium) and alum axle route for weight savings. 80 in-lbs of torque is not in a range that is abnormal for an M6 bolt, but if you're used to 50 in-lbs, then the hand calibration for pinch bolts might be off. Not communicating the torque specification on that bolt on this model is something I'll work on making sure is available ASAP on the website.

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Yes. That sounds good. Maybe a little print on the frame itself would be good, like many component manufacturers do these days.
Actually, at the moment there are no technical documents for the V10 online at all.

Can anyone post their RC4 settings on here? I can't seem to get the rebound right.

One click either way seems to make a huge difference but still doesn't feel right.

joeg, thanks for the info on the rear axle pinch bolt situation, but as I tried to make clear in the above posts: there is a second issue that has come up in this thread (see page 23).

3 bikes are reported on page 23 to have an issue with the rear shock eyelet bolt loosening despite being installed correctly. You already made the somewhat odd suggestion that they replace the DU bushing, but that doesn't seem to apply here on what are relatively new frames. (not to mention it insults the intelligence of the posters. everyone knows what a worn DU bushing feels like. note in their posts, the sloppiness goes away when the bolt is tightened. and gets sloppy again as the bolt works itself loose.).

I'm assuming that those 3 bikes had the typical torque for shock mounts. Is this simply another example of the need to tighten the bolt more than the normal amount used on 99% of other bikes on the market? Is the issue here that people are afraid to damage carbon fiber frames by over-tightening?

frorider said:

joeg, thanks for the info on the rear axle pinch bolt situation, but as I tried to make clear in the above posts: there is a second issue that has come up in this thread (see page 23).

3 bikes are reported on page 23 to have an issue with the rear shock eyelet bolt loosening despite being installed correctly. You already made the somewhat odd suggestion that they replace the DU bushing, but that doesn't seem to apply here on what are relatively new frames. (not to mention it insults the intelligence of the posters. everyone knows what a worn DU bushing feels like. note in their posts, the sloppiness goes away when the bolt is tightened. and gets sloppy again as the bolt works itself loose.).

I'm assuming that those 3 bikes had the typical torque for shock mounts. Is this simply another example of the need to tighten the bolt more than the normal amount used on 99% of other bikes on the market? Is the issue here that people are afraid to damage carbon fiber frames by over-tightening?

Click to expand...

Doesn't the rear shock eyelet bolt go through the aluminum link? How are you going to damage the carbon fiber by tightening a bolt that only touches aluminum?

frorider said:

I'm assuming that those 3 bikes had the typical torque for shock mounts. Is this simply another example of the need to tighten the bolt more than the normal amount used on 99% of other bikes on the market? Is the issue here that people are afraid to damage carbon fiber frames by over-tightening?

Click to expand...

Recommended shock bolt torque is 140 in-lbs for both ends of the shock on the V10.4. This is actually 50 in-lbs lower than the V10.3, which used Grade 8 M8 bolts. I'm not sure what others recommend for an M8 bolt, but we don't make our recommendations by surveying bicycle manuals from other companies. Typical recommended torque for a lubricated M8 titanium bolt is in the range of 250 in-lbs - as recommended by fastener manufacturers.

If the bike is ridden for awhile with it loose, its possible that the shock reducers or the link can become damaged. If that happened to anyone, or something seems amiss after inspection of the link area, DU bushings, shock reducers - and working with your local mechanic familiar with Santa Cruz isn't helping - resolution of the issue is best handled by contacting our warranty department directly so you can get taken care of ASAP. You can call or email directly warranty AT santacruzbicycles dot com.

frorider: no insult was intended by my recommendation to check DU bushings for play. This is the most common result of shock play by far. Without complete information about each of the riders and bikes in question, I start with the most common resolutions, which would be DU bushings, correct torque and grease/loctite hardware preparations, correct reducers (you'd be amazed how often the wrong reducers, or no reducers on the shock) are used. Again, having a quick conversation on the phone or via email with our warranty or tech folks can usually pinpoint each individual circumstance, ensure there's a quick resolution, and happy times riding bikes resumes.

For the front and carbon damaging question: the bolt does not actually touch any carbon, nor do the shock reducers. Its in a love sandwich of aluminum inserts that help to protect the frame from washerless torquing. As long as the reducers are the correct width when the bolt is tightened, there is no risk of frame damage from tightening the bolt. Torque on

Raingauge said:

Can anyone post their RC4 settings on here? I can't seem to get the rebound right.

One click either way seems to make a huge difference but still doesn't feel right.

Click to expand...

Your rebound is mainly going to be a factor of your spring weight, within a click or 2, usually. Just fyi.

What the heck is up with SC's pricing in Europe??? RRP in Germany for a V10C frame with Vivid Air is 4000 Euros, which is like 5300 USD. Hucknroll.com sells the exact same frameset for less than 3300 USD. UK prices are a little bit better, about 4700. Still crazy expensive and a lot more than other high end framesets. On top of that Santa Cruz doesn't allow their online dealers to ship frames outside the US.

fly to america, buy one cash, ride **** here, stick it in your suit case and take it home. problem solved.

Glisseur said:

On top of that Santa Cruz doesn't allow their online dealers to ship frames outside the US.

Click to expand...

not "officially"

Transcend said:

Your rebound is mainly going to be a factor of your spring weight, within a click or 2, usually. Just fyi.

Click to expand...

Spring rate is determined by rider weight to get correct sag on the shock. The only reason rebound would be effected by spring rate would be to compensate for variances in the spring rate from the manufacturer.

If I gain or lose weight and have to switch spring rates I don't need to change the rebound settings.

Raingauge said:

If I gain or lose weight and have to switch spring rates I don't need to change the rebound settings.

Click to expand...

I don't think that's true.

Your suspension rebounds when it is unweighted. That means that (at least most) of your weight is currently not pushing down on the suspension.
Like after leaving a lip of a jump or rolling fast over a hole in the ground.

The speed at which the suspension rebounds then depends on the spring and the rebound damping. To get the same speed with a harder spring, you need more damping.

Raingauge said:

If I gain or lose weight and have to switch spring rates I don't need to change the rebound settings.

Click to expand...

yes, you do

tom said:

I don't think that's true.

Your suspension rebounds when it is unweighted. That means that (at least most) of your weight is currently not pushing down on the suspension.
Like after leaving a lip of a jump or rolling fast over a hole in the ground.

The speed at which the suspension rebounds then depends on the spring and the rebound damping. To get the same speed with a harder spring, you need more damping.

Click to expand...

IH8Rice said:

yes, you do

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Spring rate is a function of leverage ratio and rider weight. Rebound is dependent on terrain, rider preference and skill.

If what you're saying is true different weight riders would need different shock tunes to compensate for increased or decreased spring rates. If your shock tops out to quickly or packs up on the terrain its nothing to do with spring rate it bad tuning.

I know with both my Sunday and my Revolt you could increase or decrease spring rates and still have the same starting point for the shock settings. One or two clicks from that depending on terrain and how you liked the bike to behave was all you needed.

Have a look on the SRAM site and the recommended settings for the Vivid. Does it mention anything about spring rate and dampening functions? That would be a pretty important thing to leave out if your assumptions were true.

http://www.sram.com/sites/default/files/vivid_pocketguid_en.pdf

for every action, there is an equal yet opposite reaction. the stiffer the rate of the spring, the more reaction force to extend it possesses, and thus will require more rebound damping than a lower spring rate to extend at the same speed.

on a different note, boy are anglesets noisy...

descente said:

for every action, there is an equal yet opposite reaction. the stiffer the rate of the spring, the more reaction force to extend it possesses, and thus will require more rebound damping than a lower spring rate to extend at the same speed.

on a different note, boy are anglesets noisy...

Click to expand...

The mass of your body + gravity is a force acting against the spring trying to extend.

If I get on someones bike and they weigh 200lbs and I weigh 160lbs can I compensate for the increases spring rate by increasing the dampening and still make the bike ride well? Not likely. But if I change the spring to the correct rate and the shock is set up properly I won't need to change the dampening unless my riding preferences are different.

As for the angleset, MOAR grease has been the answer for me.