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Pivot Phoenix geo = strange

frorider

Monkey
Jul 21, 2004
971
20
cali
A while back I posted that it seemed that magazine reviewers were encouraged by Pivot to treat this DH bike as an AM bike of sorts i.e. demo bikes were set up w/ a dropper seatpost, uphill pedalling was encouraged.

The more frames I try these days, the more I find I prefer the Reach to be around 16.5 inches (I'm just under 6'3", normal arm and leg length). The Lg Phoenix has just a 15.8 inch reach, which seems more like the reach on a size Medium in other brands these days.

ETT is a somewhat meaningless spec on a DH bike, but in the case of the Phoenix I get the sense that Chris Cocalis designed the bike around the 24.3 inch ETT (i.e. the STA and ETT constrained the reach to just 15.8 inches).

Any tallish riders on a Phoenix want to comment?
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
A while back I posted that it seemed that magazine reviewers were encouraged by Pivot to treat this DH bike as an AM bike of sorts i.e. demo bikes were set up w/ a dropper seatpost, uphill pedalling was encouraged.

The more frames I try these days, the more I find I prefer the Reach to be around 16.5 inches (I'm just under 6'3", normal arm and leg length). The Lg Phoenix has just a 15.8 inch reach, which seems more like the reach on a size Medium in other brands these days.

ETT is a somewhat meaningless spec on a DH bike, but in the case of the Phoenix I get the sense that Chris Cocalis designed the bike around the 24.3 inch ETT (i.e. the STA and ETT constrained the reach to just 15.8 inches).

Any tallish riders on a Phoenix want to comment?
I personally designed the geometry for the Phoenix, the cockpit sizing is almost identical to a Sunday and a Revolt (which I also did). I don't use reach and stack as it's a meaningless number when you take changing fork AC height into account. Downtube length and weight balance is very similar to the aforementioned bikes. If you are 6'3" then you definitely need to be on at least a large with the Phoenix (and every other bike in the Pivot line).

The initial launch bikes (late spring 2010) had dropper posts because the riders were at Moab and the guys pedaled the bikes up the shuttle. It is a full on DH bike, plenty capable of racing and winning World Cups and tearing apart the local mountain on the weekends, it just happens to pedal like a rocket. It's also designed to be able to use angle adjusting headsets if you want to go even slacker. BB height is a low 13.6.

Hope this helps,

Dave
 

davetrump

Turbo Monkey
Jul 29, 2003
1,270
0
I personally designed the geometry for the Phoenix, the cockpit sizing is almost identical to a Sunday and a Revolt (which I also did). I don't use reach and stack as it's a meaningless number when you take changing fork AC height into account. Downtube length and weight balance is very similar to the aforementioned bikes. If you are 6'3" then you definitely need to be on at least a large with the Phoenix (and every other bike in the Pivot line).

The initial launch bikes (late spring 2010) had dropper posts because the riders were at Moab and the guys pedaled the bikes up the shuttle. It is a full on DH bike, plenty capable of racing and winning World Cups and tearing apart the local mountain on the weekends, it just happens to pedal like a rocket. It's also designed to be able to use angle adjusting headsets if you want to go even slacker. BB height is a low 13.6.

Hope this helps,

Dave
stop making sense :D

Having owned a Sunday, and a Revolt, and spending some time on a Pivot I could not agree more.
 

dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,922
10
Your face.
The Phoenix also has the largest BB area I have seen on a bike in a long time. Saw on in the shop, took a peek inside and there were 4 midgets living in there.
 

frorider

Monkey
Jul 21, 2004
971
20
cali
Thanks Dave. I wasn't trying to imply that Reach as a stand-alone number tells you everything, but for bikes with similar stack numbers the reach (IME) is one of the most important geo numbers and tends to correlate with rider impressions of whether the bike feels short or long. To use another possibly related example, the Lg Wilson has a shorter reach than some other bikes in a 'Lg' size, and my understanding (from threads here at least) is that Devinci next year will have an XL version to address the comments that the current Lg feels a bit small.

btw Dave you wrote I should be on at "least a large with the Phoenix "---but there is no XL Phoenix on the pivot site. Is an XL Phoenix coming for 2012?

At any rate it's a moot point...the closest Pivot retailer for me is way up in Reno, and they apparently do not like to return phone calls or emails from interested customers. Assuming the DHR's are shipping later in September, that's what I'm going to get (in an XL).
 

slothy

Monkey
Sep 21, 2007
259
0
Ireland
............. I don't use reach and stack as it's a meaningless number when you take changing fork AC height into account. ..............

Dave
Yes, but it really helps to get an idea of the frame size when the manufacturer states the Fork height and the stack height.

TT is much more useless as there are too many variables.
 

DhDork

Monkey
Mar 30, 2007
352
0
Hell, AZ
At any rate it's a moot point...the closest Pivot retailer for me is way up in Reno, and they apparently do not like to return phone calls or emails from interested customers. Assuming the DHR's are shipping later in September, that's what I'm going to get (in an XL).
As a Pivot dealer, I can see why they are reluctant to take your call. Because of the high price of a Pivot, most people are shopping around for the best deal on a one, use the dealer for there time, but never actually spend their money with the dealer. This makes it difficult to tell the difference between an actual customer, and someone who's just wasting there time. Time that could be spent dealing with customers, who are in the store, ready to hand you there money. It's really unfortunate for someone like you who would actually like to buy one. If you're actually still interested in a Phoenix, you can contact me through a PM, and I can send you our contact info. I Geek pretty hard even just talking about nice bikes to someone.
 
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IH8Rice

I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!
Aug 2, 2008
24,524
494
Im over here now
As a Pivot dealer, I can see why they are reluctant to take your call. Most people are shopping around for the best deal on a Pivot, use the dealer for there time, but never actually spend their money with the dealer. This makes it difficult to tell the difference between an actual customer, and someone who's just wasting there time. Time that could be spent dealing with customers who are in the store, ready to hand you there money. It's really unfortunate for someone like you who would actually like to buy one.
still sounds like bad business practices. im a Pivot dealer as well and still take time to answer every call i get about their products or any other brand i sell. if theres someone in the store, then i might have to call the customer back, but i still call the customer back every single time even if i think that person might be wasting my time.....sometimes you think someone is wasting your time but that could be the person who drops $6000 on a bike or bikes.
 

DhDork

Monkey
Mar 30, 2007
352
0
Hell, AZ
still sounds like bad business practices. im a Pivot dealer as well and still take time to answer every call i get about their products or any other brand i sell. if theres someone in the store, then i might have to call the customer back, but i still call the customer back every single time even if i think that person might be wasting my time.....sometimes you think someone is wasting your time but that could be the person who drops $6000 on a bike or bikes.
And that is why I do answer EVERY call about one. My point is I can see why the dealer in Reno isn't giving two hoots about taking his phone call. I myself, just spent nearly a total of 8hrs of time on a Pivot customer, who allowed us to set him up a demo, then without consulting us on a price, went behind us, and bought it on closeout. He then came back when he needed a warranty, and threw a huge hissy fit when they didn't want to give him one. In the end, we still did not have a happy customer, no money in pocket, and a loss of time.

I am more than happy to take the time to help someone who is even curious in a higher dollar bike, let alone has the dough to cough up. I go as far out of my way to use my own time and money to make the sale. Because its not the customer who spends their money with you that makes for a good sale, its the one who continues to keep coming back.
 

IH8Rice

I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!
Aug 2, 2008
24,524
494
Im over here now
My point is I can see why the dealer in Reno isn't giving two hoots about taking his phone call.
i cant.
i understand that you dont do this, but i guess business must be so good for that shop that they can brush off potential customers. like i said, bad business practices
 

DhDork

Monkey
Mar 30, 2007
352
0
Hell, AZ
i cant.
i understand that you dont do this, but i guess business must be so good for that shop that they can brush off potential customers. like i said, bad business practices
Touché. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending them by any means. Most definitely bad business.
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
Is it possible that the Reno dealer was at Interbike (just a short drive away) for the last week like most of the bike world?

I wouldn't hesitate to call Pivot directly. They are good people and would love to sell anyone a bike I am sure. Plus I am sure that they would want to make sure that their dealer is OK.
 

frorider

Monkey
Jul 21, 2004
971
20
cali
2 comments, one related to the thread hi-jack, and one back on-topic:

a) My emails and phone vmails to this bike shop were pretty basic i.e. 'Do you have, or plan to have for a customer, any Phoenix's in stock so I can throw a leg over it in the store and get a feel for the fit, craftmanship etc.?' 9 times out of 10, ESPECIALLY during recessionary times, a shop will respond. I have at times had to buy bikes or parts from brick-and-mortar retailers that are not really local --- it works out fine if they have good communication skills. This retailer failed that very basic test. It's not like I called and said 'please give me a demo bike to thrash for a weekend, ASAP.'

b) Posts made on my iPhone aren't always perfectly expressed. The geo questions about the Phoenix partly relate to curiousity about the design goals. Most full-on DH frames do not even attempt to 'work' as a full-extension seatpost climbing rig. Many reasons for this that don't need to be re-hashed in detail here, I would hope. DW mentioned the Moab testing; I also very much recall a magazine review from Bootleg canyon that also went into some detail about the ability to raise the seat into a pedalling position, and the long climbs they did. OK, fine, I have nothing against that, but as someone in R&D who works closely w/ the marketing dept to position our products correctly, I have some free advice for Pivot and DW: if you have developed what you feel is a no-compromise approach to combining WC DH geo/strength/standover/rear-wheel-clearance/etc with an AM pedalling position possibility, then spell that out.

I'm sure many of us remember when the Socom came out and all the mtbr-tards immediately turned it into an AM bike of sorts, via clamp-on der cable stops in those pre-hammerschmidt days...as I recall, after a year or so there were reports of seat tube welds failing from the long seatposts they were rocking on the climbs.
 

frorider

Monkey
Jul 21, 2004
971
20
cali
Is it possible that the Reno dealer was at Interbike (just a short drive away) for the last week like most of the bike world?

I wouldn't hesitate to call Pivot directly. They are good people and would love to sell anyone a bike I am sure. Plus I am sure that they would want to make sure that their dealer is OK.
Sorry, just saw your post now. Of course I would never expect prompt vmail or email responses during a major show from a small company or retailer. My contacts to this retailer have been sprinkled across various months during the last year.

/hijack.
 

-BB-

I broke all the rules, but somehow still became mo
Sep 6, 2001
4,254
28
Livin it up in the O.C.
For what it is worth, I'm 5'11 and the Lg I tried at Interbike was a tad too big for me. Medium would have been just about perfect.
 

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
117
San Francisco
I don't use reach and stack as it's a meaningless number when you take changing fork AC height into account. Downtube length and weight balance is very similar to the aforementioned bikes.
True technically, but is the A2C really varying THAT much between downhill forks these days? Almost everyone is using a zero stack headset too. I mean at most the A2c is gonna vary ~1inch or so, and that's gonna change stack/reach by probably less than a half inch probably? (I'm too lazy to do the trig right now, but that is a genuine question, not being a dick). How come you guys don't give the downtube measurement on the website?

P.s. 15.8 reach and 46.7 WB for a large with 17.28 CS does seem REALLY small.
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
Just checked the numbers, as I said, I don't use reach and stack so I've never had a real reason to look at it on the bike.

The reach and stack #s on the Pivot site seem to be incorrect (listed too short on the site). The medium Phoenix has a 15.21" reach, the large has a 16.31" reach, so longer than reported.

Hope this helps.
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
PS maybe you could change the title of the thread to Pivot Phoenix geo = AWESOME!

Just a suggestion, seems fair :)
 

frorider

Monkey
Jul 21, 2004
971
20
cali
re: thread title -- i checked earlier today, and i can't change the title. it was meant to have a question mark after the word 'strange', btw.

perhaps the mods can change that to 'awesome'. or 'WC DH + AM = ?'
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
but as someone in R&D who works closely w/ the marketing dept to position our products correctly, I have some free advice for Pivot and DW: if you have developed what you feel is a no-compromise approach to combining WC DH geo/strength/standover/rear-wheel-clearance/etc with an AM pedalling position possibility, then spell that out.
I hear you, that's my style as well. If the product is made for a specific purpose, say it clearly and let the product stand on it's own merits.

In the case of the Phoenix, I had no idea that the bike was being launched, where it was being launched, and until the more recent bike launches, Pivot has not really not consulted with me about marketing etc... Other partners do, but Pivot did their own thing and I'm cool with that.
 

frorider

Monkey
Jul 21, 2004
971
20
cali
I hear you, that's my style as well. If the product is made for a specific purpose, say it clearly and let the product stand on it's own merits.

In the case of the Phoenix, I had no idea that the bike was being launched, where it was being launched, and until the more recent bike launches, Pivot has not really not consulted with me about marketing etc... Other partners do, but Pivot did their own thing and I'm cool with that.
Yeah that was the sense I got, which is why I assumed that the overall geo was Chris's thing. Hell if I'd known you did all the design aspects, I would have titled the thread 'DW --what the hell is he up to here?' to get a faster response.
 

bismojo

Monkey
May 5, 2009
271
39
Had few laps on my team mate's S phoenix last july and IMO it feels shorter front-centre than my S sunday (with 63 HA and 45mm stem/780mm bar - the phoenix was with totem and 50mm stem/760mm bar) - I also had S demo and rode an XS, the S phoenix def. felt closer to XS.



I always wanted a phoenix and it looks much nicer in person than in photo. One thing keeping me from getting one is it's weight, about 5.6 KG (12+ lbs) frame only and 18.44 KG (40+ lbs) with that spec.
 

Beheaded

Chimp
Nov 19, 2009
13
0
I have had a Pivot for awhile now and I haven't even measured my top tube, chain stays or BB. I was immediately comfortable and ripping on this bike ( bye bye M9 ). I know its slack low and feels real nice. I am 5'9" on a medium, it weighs in at 39.5 so not super light but its very stiff. I Like! Here's a go pro vid of it in action.
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
Had few laps on my team mate's S phoenix last july and IMO it feels shorter front-centre than my S sunday (with 63 HA and 45mm stem/780mm bar - the phoenix was with totem and 50mm stem/760mm bar) - I also had S demo and rode an XS, the S phoenix def. felt closer to XS.



I always wanted a phoenix and it looks much nicer in person than in photo. One thing keeping me from getting one is it's weight, about 5.6 KG (12+ lbs) frame only and 18.44 KG (40+ lbs) with that spec.
The Sunday in the pic is a medium, and the Pivot in the pic is a small. The small Sunday was always known as a larger small. Jaycee from Madcatz always wanted a smaller one for himself.

The Phoenix has almost an identical weight to the Sunday. It is NOT 12 lbs for the frame, I don't know where that # came from. Try high 8. to low 9. something for frame and shock. My latest one was built at 37 with no effort at all on light components.
 
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bismojo

Monkey
May 5, 2009
271
39
The Sunday in the pic is a medium, and the Pivot in the pic is a small. The small Sunday was always known as a larger small. Jaycee from Madcatz always wanted a smaller one for himself.

The Phoenix has almost an identical weight to the Sunday. It is NOT 12 lbs for the frame, I don't know where that # came from. Try high 8. to low 9. something for frame and shock. My latest one was built at 37 with no effort at all on light components.
Sorry if this OT,

As mr. DW already replied (big fan of your work btw) I got my sunday measurements :

  • 525mm (20.4") actual ST-HT center to center
  • 1155mm wheelbase (45.2") at 63 degrees HA (works component cup)
  • Seat Tube has been chopped 8mm so it might look longer

Is it small or medium frame?

Back to Phoenix, I can confirm the fullbike weight, but frameset weight was according to 2 of my friends (small and medium both with RC4)

Thanks :)
 
Last edited:
Dec 11, 2007
140
0
Lawn Dart Training Center
I have had a Pivot for awhile now and I haven't even measured my top tube, chain stays or BB. I was immediately comfortable and ripping on this bike ( bye bye M9 ). I know its slack low and feels real nice. I am 5'9" on a medium, it weighs in at 39.5 so not super light but its very stiff. I Like! Here's a go pro vid of it in action.
You found Sasquatch. 4:30 on vid