Quantcast

Scandium -- why not more of it?

frorider

frorider

Monkey
Jul 21, 2004
971
20
cali
Scandium alloy gets used in some interesting bike applications -- e.g. Siren XC frames use it as a pivotless suspension flexible chainstay -- but overall it's not been adopted much.

A handlebar (cyclic fatigue resistance) seems like a great application for Scandium but other than the Azonic B52 I don't think I've seen one out there.

Alex Inc's brand, A-class, makes some Scandium rim wheelsets (like the revolt ) but no one pays attention to those wheelsets, AFAIK.

Ethirteen/hive has announced Scandium UST rims...off the top of my head, 560 g with an internal width of 26 mm...and their marketing focuses on that as a differentiator. Which raises the question of why hasn't Sc been used already in hi end rims? It's not like Mavic is clueless about Al alloys.
 
syadasti

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
Salami said:
Easton used to make a Scandium bar FWIW.
Click to expand...
Yeah it was a DH bar, I had one.

There were some hardtails back in the day too. Aermet steel was cooler but it breaks tools at the factory. Hopefully that breakthrough FB steel making process will make light steel bicycle parts viable.

I think they still use Scandium in Easton BB bats and I think I remember Aermet being using in golf equipment more recently.
 
Last edited:
dump

dump

Turbo Monkey
Oct 12, 2001
8,217
4,468
Some seat rails in the mid 90s used to use scandium (if my memory serves me right). I had a Vetta TT w/ scandium rails.
 
dump

dump

Turbo Monkey
Oct 12, 2001
8,217
4,468
Jeremy R said:
Wasn't those Vetta seats something called vanadium?
God if I am right I am gonna crawl under a rock and die for knowing something as geeky as that.
Click to expand...
yup, you're right. I had the Vetta SP... memory fails me.

 
I

illnotsick

Monkey
Jun 3, 2009
257
0
Yeah it looked pretty old. It was a pretty big guy who crashed. He came into a tight g-out and he went down but never came back up. The bar was pinched right about at the end of the rise on one side and folded all the way forward.
 
tacubaya

tacubaya

Monkey
Dec 19, 2009
720
89
Mexico City
Scandium is quite rare and a very expensive metal.

Scandium is great for aluminum alloys as it limits and refines the grain size thereby increasing the strength.
 
syadasti

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
tacubaya said:
Scandium is quite rare and a very expensive metal.

Scandium is great for aluminum alloys as it limits and refines the grain size thereby increasing the strength.
Click to expand...
AFAIK, every cycling application is an Al alloy, we aren't talking about defense use with unlimited budgets (or living in Russia).

Now if you want to talk expensive, rare and dangerous, they did make a Be alloy frameset a long time ago.
 
Smelly

Smelly

Turbo Monkey
Jun 17, 2004
1,254
1
out yonder, round bout a hootinany
Plenty of scandium alloy hardtail frames on the market. And The Hive isn't first on the block with a scandium rim, Bontrager's had one for a few years.

fwiw, it's really just an aluminum component/frame with scandium added. It only takes a tiny amount of scandium to straighten the grain structure. "Scandium" frames are only like 3% scandium or some tiny amount.

Why not use more of it? Who knows. Kona uses plenty, and their frames can be had at pretty reasonable prices, too. The King Kahuna frame I had was about 3 lbs and $500. Pretty good deal if you ask me.
 
frorider

frorider

Monkey
Jul 21, 2004
971
20
cali
Smelly, my first post already covered the fact that it's just another alloy of aluminum. And I know E13 isn't the first Sc alloy rim, which is why I mentioned Alex Aclass.

My point here is that since mfg cost isn't an issue (azonic bars are cheap, Aclass wheels are cheap) and since the engr advantages seem worthy, I'm surprised we don't see more DH products using it.
 
sanjuro

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
tacubaya said:
Scandium is quite rare and a very expensive metal.

Scandium is great for aluminum alloys as it limits and refines the grain size thereby increasing the strength.
Click to expand...
I know how rare it is. I can barely find a scandium frame on Steep And Cheap.
 
S

StabprimoMonkee

Monkey
Aug 4, 2008
328
4
Burgtec Ride Wide used to be scandium alloy, seems like not anymore tho.

Had it, liked it but if I remember correctly it felt like just any ordinary alloy bar.
 
Sandwich

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,069
5,980
borcester rhymes
I had a defense lacrosse shaft made from scandium, and it held up for several years. It was way light and never dented....a lot better than the steel or standard alloy that came from the factories.

Personally I think less people use it because nobody really cares about what DH frames are made out of when there's so much other tech (geometry, suspension design, weight, shock, headtube size immediately come to mind). Carbon is the exception, but that's because it's ZOMG carbon, not a small step towards improving a design. I'd bet most people can't name the alloys used in four different DH frames without googling them. In 96 I could recite by memory the entire lineup of GT's alloy selection by model.
 
syadasti

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
Sandwich said:
I'd bet most people can't name the alloys used in four different DH frames without googling them. In 96 I could recite by memory the entire lineup of GT's alloy selection by model.
Click to expand...
Most Al frames are 6000 series. The cheap stuff is occasionally 7000 series. Who gives a crap about the specific alloy, we aren't talking anything earth shattering and the marketing names/descriptions are stupid/annoying.
 
SuspectDevice

SuspectDevice

Turbo Monkey
Aug 23, 2002
4,165
371
Roanoke, VA
"Scandium" frames are a nightmare. So expensive, so fragile. The aging process is more finicky. So temperature sensitive you aren't even supposed to powdercoat the frames. They are extremely exposed to salt corrosion. The "enhanced grain" also means shorter lifespans if you try to save weight because "harder" stuff doesn't like to flex as much...

I'm sure you could draw scandium-enhanced tubing to be more durable if you took weight out of the equation and focused solely on durability, but why would you do that when you could just use plain old 7005 or 6061 for a 1/5th of the price? It's an expensive, finicky material that doesn't offer up any tangible benefits but a big list of caveats and failures.

For every one or two people who had a decent service life out of their Scandium Kona, Niner or Salsa there are just as many other people that are moving through more than one frame a year. My favorite shop sells the two aforementioned brands. Even the word makes them cringe.
There is tons or a room to split hairs about "scandium" bike tubing. Easton, Kinesis, Kentsone, Deddacaci and Columbus etc... all have their own varying formulas for "scandium enhanced" tubing, Some brands have almost no scandium in them. If you want your bike to last, less is best. Some of the tubing is better than others, but all of it isn't worth the hassle.

For a lightweight frame application you might be able to save 175gm in weight. You also reduce the expected service life of the frame from 3-5 years to one season. You get to pay more for the privilege too! I wouldn't even bother thinking about making a scandium ds or dh bike. All of that hardness isn't going to be a good thing if you're trying to makesomething last.

In the small-time domestic framebuilding world people who still build with scandium explicitly say in multiple places every where you look that your frame might break in less than a year. They'll try to talk you out of it every step of the way. So... there's that.

Your lightweight lacrosse stick, handlebar or 10 year old Easton stem aren't made out of the same alloy that get's welded into bike frames.
 
Last edited:
N

NoUseForAName

Monkey
Mar 26, 2008
481
0
SuspectDevice said:
"Scandium" frames are a nightmare. So expensive, so fragile. The aging process is more finicky. So temperature sensitive you aren't even supposed to powdercoat the frames. They are extremely exposed to salt corrosion. The "enhanced grain" also means shorter lifespans if you try to save weight because "harder" stuff doesn't like to flex as much...

I'm sure you could draw scandium-enhanced tubing to be more durable if you took weight out of the equation and focused solely on durability, but why would you do that when you could just use plain old 7005 or 6061 for a 1/5th of the price? It's an expensive, finicky material that doesn't offer up any tangible benefits but a big list of caveats and failures.

For every one or two people who had a decent service life out of their Scandium Kona, Niner or Salsa there are just as many other people that are moving through more than one frame a year. My favorite shop sells the two aforementioned brands. Even the word makes them cringe.
There is tons or a room to split hairs about "scandium" bike tubing. Easton, Kinesis, Kentsone, Deddacaci and Columbus etc... all have their own varying formulas for "scandium enhanced" tubing, Some brands have almost no scandium in them. If you want your bike to last, less is best. Some of the tubing is better than others, but all of it isn't worth the hassle.

For a lightweight frame application you might be able to save 175gm in weight. You also reduce the expected service life of the frame from 3-5 years to one season. You get to pay more for the privilege too! I wouldn't even bother thinking about making a scandium ds or dh bike. All of that hardness isn't going to be a good thing if you're trying to makesomething last.

In the small-time domestic framebuilding world people who still build with scandium explicitly say in multiple places every where you look that your frame might break in less than a year. They'll try to talk you out of it every step of the way. So... there's that.

Your lightweight lacrosse stick, handlebar or 10 year old Easton stem aren't made out of the same alloy that get's welded into bike frames.
Click to expand...
This was exactly what i remembered from the last time i sold 'Scandium' framed bikes years ago.
Who cares about Aluminium alloys; Carbon fibre is where it's at.
 
frorider

frorider

Monkey
Jul 21, 2004
971
20
cali
Who cares about Aluminium alloys; Carbon fibre is where it's at.
Click to expand...
if you watch that interbike vid w/ E13, you'll see that their marketing ploy here is to position scandium-enhanced rims as something in between regular alu and CF....CF rims for DH aren't getting cheap anytime soon, so E13 believes there is a place for something affordable that is also pretty light and stiff.

be nice to hear some real-world reports on their rims.
 
SuspectDevice

SuspectDevice

Turbo Monkey
Aug 23, 2002
4,165
371
Roanoke, VA
frorider said:
if you watch that interbike vid w/ E13, you'll see that their marketing ploy here is to position scandium-enhanced rims as something in between regular alu and CF....CF rims for DH aren't getting cheap anytime soon, so E13 believes there is a place for something affordable that is also pretty light and stiff.

be nice to hear some real-world reports on their rims.
Click to expand...
The are right on with their analysis. Extruded scandium that doesn't need to be more than pinned/welded/machined is much different than a structural weldment as far to what the alloy actually is.
Shimano's scandium rims are way cooler than what they could extrude out of other alloys- but, um... Nobody ever defines what the exact alloy of anything they make at the high end of the bike industry. It's part of the mystique
What's in it? Who knows. Sounds like there must be some Scandium of course but...
I guess it's a great example of how sometimes we all have to use our brains and let stuff sort itself out. Like in the good old days!
 
N

NoUseForAName

Monkey
Mar 26, 2008
481
0
frorider said:
if you watch that interbike vid w/ E13, you'll see that their marketing ploy here is to position scandium-enhanced rims as something in between regular alu and CF....CF rims for DH aren't getting cheap anytime soon, so E13 believes there is a place for something affordable that is also pretty light and stiff.

be nice to hear some real-world reports on their rims.
Click to expand...
Specialized is running round with $1600 retail wheelsets with Carbon rims. That's all it will take.
 
R

roel_koel

Monkey
Mar 26, 2003
278
1
London,England
syadasti said:
Most Al frames are 6000 series. The cheap stuff is occasionally 7000 series. Who gives a crap about the specific alloy, we aren't talking anything earth shattering and the marketing names/descriptions are stupid/annoying.
Click to expand...

other way around ;)

cheaper frames are 6XXX aluminium alloys ('cheaper' does not include the domestic i.e. USA made frames which use 6XXX alloys because they are available 'locally' i.e. in country but you have domestic manufacturing costs)

in Taiwan the cheaper frames are 6XXX alloys, for example Specialized's "A1 alloy" is basically 6061 with some tube manipulation and single / double butting depending on pricepoint of the bike / frame

last season (2011) the Sirrus hybrid used a hydroformed A1 frame, as manufacturing costs and domestic currency have weakened SBC have moved back to a swaged A1 frame

Specialized's "M5 alloy" is 7005 with extra manipulation (often hydroforming) and double / triple butting depending on pricepoint

7XXX alloys are more available in TW than in the USA or the UK (when I was building prototype DH frames here in the UK I could only get HE30 (6082) from Alcan)


if you look at the physical properties of 7XXX alloys they are extremely capable and if you see the unit costs for these 7XXX frames coming out of TW, its very price-competitive against fancier alloying elements like Scandium which offer very little additional benefit for increased costs
 
syadasti

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
No, I got it right - 7000 series on the cheapest frames (more so in the earlier days of Al mountain bikes - I had one of these cheap frames from Marin 1995 MY). They tend to be the mass produced cheaper framesets from Asia. They are cheaper because they can get away with no heat treat - you can't do that in 6000 - nobody sells what would be an even cheaper untreated 6000 series frameset - that's not safe. This was especially the case in the early 90s but has changed with more cycling companies offering heat treated 7000 series which is obviously more expensive than heat treated 6000 series.



roel_koel said:
other way around ;)
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
daisycutter

daisycutter

Turbo Monkey
Apr 8, 2006
1,657
129
New York City
Thats's right! The little known alloy called Scandium-aluminum (Al-Sc) has been used by several bike manufactures to produce ultra-light Bicycle frames and by Easton to produce a line of baseball bats which have thinner walls yet are stronger and lighter.

It is not suprising if you have not heard of Scandium. If you happen to be dozing off in chemistry class the day they covered atomic number 21 on the periodic table, then you probably missed it.

This relatively soft, silvery white solid element was discovered in the 1870's by a Swedish chemist named Lars Nilson from other minerals only found in Scandinavia ( thus the name.) Scandium resembles yttrium and the rare-earth metals more than it resembles aluminum or titanium. Pure scandium is currently obtained as a byproduct of uranium refining. Scandium has an atomic weight of 44.95 which falls between Calcium at 40 and titanium at 48.

This very light yet durable material was pretty much ignored until the Soviet Union began using scandium alloys to construct missile fins out of it for launching ICBM's through the polar ice. The U.S Air Force also began to use it in Aircraft around the 1960's but the high cost of scandium has limited its use. Scandium is extremely expensive compared to aluminum or titanium. The price of 99% pure scandium can range from $20-100/gram for different forms.

Scandium has advantages over high strength aluminum and titanium alloys, such as:

•Greater than 25 % strength increase over aluminum alloys, and 20% strength increase over titanium alloys.

•Improved weldability/weld strength and weld life.

•Significant grain refinement and reduction of surface recrystallization.
 
zdubyadubya

zdubyadubya

Turbo Monkey
Apr 13, 2008
1,273
96
Ellicott City, MD
no skid marks said:
So has anyone seen any Titandium or Scantanium(Titanium/Scandium Alloy) bike parts?
Click to expand...
Not that I know of. But my PhD was on Ti-V alloys (not Ti-6-4). We had so much scrap that I machined and heat-treated me some links for my Karpiel Disco. They were used for all of 1 run. I cased a double and snapped the headtube off the frame. Bike went to the recyclers, links disappeared into my garage. The mechanical properties of the alloy we were designing were incredible. Links weighed almost half as much as the stock ones.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom