Why is there not a successful Superstar like company in the US

norbar · Jan 31, 2012

There are also 2 big european direct sale companies that sale complete bikes (Canyon and YT).

I know the local shop is big in the US but I'm also a bit suprised. Especially since I bet there are more people without a quality local shop in the us than in yurp considering the population density.

c101aviojet · Jan 31, 2012

I'd say nobody has tried the concept there (it would work, but perhaps not as much as in Europe), and also prices are much lower in the US. Perhaps the local shops have average prices, but there are many cheap online shops.

In Europe, however, most things go (at least where I live) 40% more expensive for no apparent reason, so even buying in the US and paying 27% more of your purchase (shipping included) in taxes is worth in front of buying it at the local shop (and, sadly, customer service is better too most times).

As an example, I remember looking for stinky frames some time ago on the Kona website, and get mad when I saw they listed exactly the same price tag for the US and Europe. Why do I have to pay an additional ~600$ over a 2000$ bike?

norbar · Jan 31, 2012

c101aviojet said:
I'd say nobody has tried the concept there (it would work, but perhaps not as much as in Europe), and also prices are much lower in the US. Perhaps the local shops have average prices, but there are many cheap online shops.

In Europe, however, most things go (at least where I live) 40% more expensive for no apparent reason, so even buying in the US and paying 27% more of your purchase (shipping included) in taxes is worth in front of buying it at the local shop (and, sadly, customer service is better too most times).

As an example, I remember looking for stinky frames some time ago on the Kona website, and get mad when I saw they listed exactly the same price tag for the US and Europe. Why do I have to pay an additional ~600$ over a 2000$ bike?

The costs of living in yurp are more expensive and most higher end (electronics , cars, housing) stuff is more expensive. Also higher VAT taxes. Another thing is US is one market for one distributor = bigger order = lower margins/better price. Europe = many smaller distros = higher prices.

Direct order stuff in the US would be even cheaper than in yurp.

Inclag · Jan 31, 2012

Lack of business savvy and importing/shipping costs and headaches.

There are numerous companies within the US that pedal (no pun intended) around catalog parts to consumers, but I can't think of any that off the top of my head within the mountain bike industry that have a business model such as Superstars (the closest may be Pricepoint.com's brand Sette components), most companies don't have the finances or backing necessary to procure a vast catalog of stock parts. Those that do seem to go the China route tend to have a small catalog and price themselves well above what I would consider fair pricing based on manufacturing costs. Also, being on the opposite side of the pond presents numerous importing and shipping hassles and there are added complexities with communication and management. It seems that sometimes real product development, at least within the cycling industry, takes a back seat to marketing, cronyism/nepotism, and self-congratulatory brand/product managers. I would argue that as a result, brands that have tried to exploit the strengths that come from overseas' production either stagnate or fail quite spectacularly. However, over the last couple years it seems that there are more and more catalog parts/bikes at lower prices making their way stateside under the guise of random wheel and component companies, roadbikes, and for fixies. Maybe not the same as say a Superstar, but a nice option compared to some of the past options.

norbar · Jan 31, 2012

Being on the opposite side of the pond should be easier for TW based parts. You are closer to TW, not further away. I think your customs taxes are also lower.

mattmatt86 · Jan 31, 2012

Almost the entire J&B catalog is direct buy stuff from Taiwan. But J&B doens't sell direct to customers, just bike shops so it's not exactly apples to apples.

bizutch · Jan 31, 2012

Why buy Taiwanese stuff rebadged by a single company when you can walk in any shop in the US and buy the same stuff with the brand name that matches your frame.

Specialized
Giant
Trek
Bontrager
Kona

They all sell that stuff like Superstar doesn't just in monochrome colors.

Azonic has tried that route for years. Somehow I get that RIDE BMX magazine free at home & I laugh when I open it and see stacks and stacks and pages of piece parts from a million brands. That something as basic as a BMX bike can have catalog options in the millions is odd to me.

Sghost · Jan 31, 2012

Inclag said:
Lack of business savvy and importing/shipping costs and headaches.

There are numerous companies within the US that pedal (no pun intended) around catalog parts to consumers, but I can't think of any that off the top of my head within the mountain bike industry that have a business model such as Superstars (the closest may be Pricepoint.com's brand Sette components), most companies don't have the finances or backing necessary to procure a vast catalog of stock parts. Those that do seem to go the China route tend to have a small catalog and price themselves well above what I would consider fair pricing based on manufacturing costs. Also, being on the opposite side of the pond presents numerous importing and shipping hassles and there are added complexities with communication and management. It seems that sometimes real product development, at least within the cycling industry, takes a back seat to marketing, cronyism/nepotism, and self-congratulatory brand/product managers. I would argue that as a result, brands that have tried to exploit the strengths that come from overseas' production either stagnate or fail quite spectacularly. However, over the last couple years it seems that there are more and more catalog parts/bikes at lower prices making their way stateside under the guise of random wheel and component companies, roadbikes, and for fixies. Maybe not the same as say a Superstar, but a nice option compared to some of the past options.

peddle

norbar · Jan 31, 2012

bizutch said:
Why buy Taiwanese stuff rebadged by a single company when you can walk in any shop in the US and buy the same stuff with the brand name that matches your frame.

Specialized
Giant
Trek
Bontrager
Kona

They all sell that stuff like Superstar doesn't just in monochrome colors.

Azonic has tried that route for years. Somehow I get that RIDE BMX magazine free at home & I laugh when I open it and see stacks and stacks and pages of piece parts from a million brands. That something as basic as a BMX bike can have catalog options in the millions is odd to me.

Yes but superstar and similar companies take stuff dedicated for a given discipline. Most of those companies are not so specific to gravity biking and superstars or a few other companies offer is imho superior. (and cheaper)

norbar · Feb 1, 2012

Actually regular bike companies (ie not huffy) are not slave labour. I worked closely with a company that made regular trips to TW and ~5 years ago most of their offer was catalog stuff. When bugged about it they mentioned it all looked pretty good.

Bikael Molton · Feb 1, 2012

My thoughts:

Great idea. I like my HT pedals from ebay. I like how "cheap is fine" is usually the mantra in street BMX. I'd rather buy Superstar and HT than Deity or Sunline. I don't think I'm the average consumer, though.

Parts would either have to be very cheap or very well marketed to succeed in the US. Probably both.

The image of the brand is key. A large segment of DH/FR consumers do not actually wear out or break bike parts. Replacing bars, posts, stems and pedals for color coordination reasons probably isn't enough for the US consumer; the parts need to have an aspirational logo too.
Case in point: the BMX street trend of rattlecanning rims and pedals, even entire bikes (straight over the logos) with flashy colors or matte black. I don't see that ever being the cool thing in MTB.
I bet kids get heckled all the time for running Sette.

Is Superstar respected by groms in the UK, or are kids made fun of for being budget? Does Superstar sponsor racers or freestylers?

ALEXIS_DH · Feb 1, 2012

i´d love if economies of scale were applied to mountain biking.
if we only had 3 o 4 major brands, like dirt bikes, then bikes would be much cheaper....

BUT, mountain bikes are far from being sold as machinery. They are like purses for wimmenz.
The cycling market is very metrosexual and image conscious, and as such every brand tries to sell not only a piece of machinery, but also a fashion accesory; and fashion cannot be mass produced.

norbar · Feb 1, 2012

Yes but the competition also pushes the technology. There is much more experimentation and playing with ideas going over here thanks to diversity.

ALEXIS_DH · Feb 1, 2012

norbar said:
Yes but the competition also pushes the technology. There is much more experimentation and playing with ideas going over here thanks to diversity.

not every competition is good competition.
the technological breakthoughs coming from 20 small mom&pop R-D departments cannot be compared to the improvements made by 3-4 well established and budgeted depts.

norbar · Feb 1, 2012

So far the only company from the big 3 that pushes the tech is Trek with their superlight session. The other ones are nice bikes but nothing really breathtaking. Giant is really conservative and pushed by the competition and Spesh tends to produce one bike for longer periods of time than smaller mfgs.

The competition also gives you choice. Would you really like a market with a choice only between a Demo, Session and Glory?

gemini2k · Feb 1, 2012

norbar said:
So far the only company from the big 3 that pushes the tech is Trek with their superlight session. The other ones are nice bikes but nothing really breathtaking. Giant is really conservative and pushed by the competition and Spesh tends to produce one bike for longer periods of time than smaller mfgs.

Sounds exactly like the moto world, where everything is more reliable and (relatively) cheaper.

scottishmark · Feb 1, 2012

gemini2k said:
Sounds exactly like the moto world, where everything is more reliable and (relatively) cheaper.

I would love for mtb world to be like that

norbar · Feb 1, 2012

The reliability issue was commented upon on another topic. It has a lot to do with weight and less pressure on it in the moto world. Also for most components there are only a few big companies (sram/shimano sram/fox etc.)

ALEXIS_DH · Feb 1, 2012

norbar said:
The competition also gives you choice. Would you really like a market with a choice only between a Demo, Session and Glory?

yes, if it meant cheaper prices and better engineered products.
like moto world.

Jim Mac · Feb 1, 2012

ALEXIS_DH said:
yes, if it meant cheaper prices and better engineered products.
like moto world.

Don't forget about economies of scale, too.

norbar · Feb 1, 2012

ALEXIS_DH said:
yes, if it meant cheaper prices and better engineered products.
like moto world.

So if Giant Spesh and Trek have other competition they make good but not great products and with less competition they would make better products? Where is the logic in that?

scottishmark · Feb 1, 2012

norbar said:
So if Giant Spesh and Trek have other competition they make good but not great products and with less competition they would make better products? Where is the logic in that?

Bigger market share, bigger incentive to invest in the DH end of things

rockofullr · Feb 1, 2012

I don't know about you guys but I buy certain brands for specific reasons.

For example, I love DT hubs because of the star ratchet system. I have seen/experienced enough broken pawls to want something more reliable. Can't find that on Superstar.

For components like pedals or bars that I am not so picky about there are already bargains to be had on the US market.

I looked at the CNC Nano Tech Flats. They are essentially a Kona Wah Wah for $56.65 USD. A quick google search came up with Wha Wha's for $64 and I know I can find a better price if I try. In addition there is no guarantee that they used the same materials. For all I know the bearings and spindles could be crap. Also can I rebuild them with a Wah Wah rebuild kit?

As for the warranty, I do wear a lot of my parts out. Pretty much anything that moves on my bike gets rebuilt until it finally dies and a warranty doesn't include that.

It's like Tommy Callahan says:

The reason why they have a guarantee on the box is because they know all they sold you is a guaranteed piece of sh!t. Hell, I can take a crap in a box and slap a guarantee on it for you, if that's what you want. But then all you have is a guaranteed piece of sh!t!

scottishmark · Feb 1, 2012

For all I know the bearings and spindles could be crap

as you would feel with any new [to you] brand. The pedals are absolutely the same as WahWahs, however the price gap is far larger here. All spares are readily available too straight from SS

They also already sell two completely difference types of freehub setup (one clutch, one ratchet and pawl).

Personnally I'm a fan, and there's no reason why someone couldn't setup a similar (possibly even cheaper to match the operating market) operation in the US

rockofullr · Feb 2, 2012

scottishmark said:
They also already sell two completely difference types of freehub setup (one clutch, one ratchet and pawl).

Interesting, I only saw the standard ratchet style in my glance around the site. Link?

scottishmark said:
Personnally I'm a fan, and there's no reason why someone couldn't setup a similar (possibly even cheaper to match the operating market) operation in the US

I don't see why it couldn't work. Maybe it is harder to beat the prices on brand name products already offered by discount online operations in the US?

If I actually had to pay MSRP on bike stuff I might consider ordering from them.

norbar · Feb 2, 2012

scottishmark said:
Bigger market share, bigger incentive to invest in the DH end of things

Actually that is not true. Bigger market share/budget the more funds you have to invest in marketing. Small companies with no marketing budgets have to pop up on peoples radars by innovating.
How many big companies do you know that got proportionally more innovative as they grew? I know the marketing budgets of some bigger non bike polish companies and I can tell you the emphasis is not on r&d.
Though you don't need any specific knowledge to see that in almost any market most of the cutting edge stuff is done by the independents be it movies, music, fashion or tech. The big guys can't afford to try out risky ideas.

scottishmark · Feb 2, 2012

rockofullr said:
Interesting, I only saw the standard ratchet style in my glance around the site. Link?

Actually, might don't think it is a clutch (I hadn't paid that much attention) but here's the posher hub:

http://superstar.tibolts.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=31&products_id=367

rockofullr · Feb 2, 2012

norbar said:
The big guys can't afford to try out risky ideas.

But the little guys can't afford to invest in a fully funded WC DH team.

scottishmark said:
Actually, might don't think it is a clutch (I hadn't paid that much attention) but here's the posher hub:

http://superstar.tibolts.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=31&products_id=367

It's just a fancy ratchet/pawl system. Looks like a Hope Pro 2 Evo for $209. Google tells me they can be had for just $185 here in the US. Rather have the real deal for cheaper if you ask me.

norbar · Feb 2, 2012

rockofullr said:
But the little guys can't afford to invest in a fully funded WC DH team.

That's what pushes the pinkbike technology, not real one

rockofullr · Feb 2, 2012

norbar said:
That's what pushes the pinkbike technology, not real one

The big racing teams push the top level of competition in our sport and grow the market. That's how the $$ comes in and that is good for bike companies big and small.

Which recent innovations in DH have been pushed by small companies any way? I honestly can't think of any.

norbar · Feb 2, 2012

rockofullr said:
The big racing teams push the top level of competition in our sport and grow the market. That's how the $$ comes in and that is good for bike companies big and small.

Which recent innovations in DH have been pushed by small companies any way? I honestly can't think of any.

I agree that big racing teams push the top level competition and grow the market. As for innovations since there weren't many innovations in dh in the last year anyway I'd say a normal weight gearbox bike from zerode. SC or Mondraker with their 0 stem aren't exactly top 5 companies in the world but they aren't small either.

I'm not actually anti big company. I just don't like the argument that we need a 3 company oligopoly. The smaller brands make a lot good components that are better tailored to specific needs. They tend to come out with some interesting ideas that sometimes are silly but sometimes work for people. Also I still don't belive less competition will boost R&D. Especially since the costs of it are cheaper than in the moto world and we wouldn't want some of the big guys to go bananas on the tech. Especially since we already see people complaining about 8k$ treks, 2k$ rims and other silly stuff like that.

rockofullr · Feb 2, 2012

norbar said:
I'm not actually anti big company. I just don't like the argument that we need a 3 company oligopoly. The smaller brands make a lot good components that are better tailored to specific needs. They tend to come out with some interesting ideas that sometimes are silly but sometimes work for people. Also I still don't belive less competition will boost R&D. Especially since the costs of it are cheaper than in the moto world and we wouldn't want some of the big guys to go bananas on the tech. Especially since we already see people complaining about 8k$ treks, 2k$ rims and other silly stuff like that.

No argument here.

Why is there not a successful Superstar like company in the US

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