The Official Iron Horse Sunday / DW-Link Tech. & Tuning Section

You'll find out once it's assembled. If there is play and you use the 609 (personally I'd recommend using it on those two points after stripping + anodizing anyway), the key is to be generous with the stuff, assemble it quickly, and then leave it and don't touch/move it for at least 12 hours, preferably 24. If there was play and there is still play afterwards you'll need to re-do it but generally it works first go, and once it works it will stay put virtually forever.

I agree with your point on the lower BB and found the bike faster to ride when it wasn't so low which I've detailed in previous posts in this thread if you skim back over the pages. My solution was to run a -1* reducer cup only (rather than 1.5 - 2) and drop the fork in the crowns to wind the head angle out further as needed - with the added bonus of raising the BB. I run a Fox 40 so there is much more range of height adjustment than a Boxxer. For alps riding I had the bike at ~62 deg and 13.8" BB or so, for less steep stuff I lower the fork a little so it's closer to ~63 deg and 13.75" BB. The extra frontend height can be counteracted quite easy with lower bars if needed. I don't recommend an angleset as a movable interface is an added point of failure - stick with the fixed cups if you ever get them (Works Components cups are my tool of choice).

Right I'll have to try and find somewhere that will anodise it now! Roughly how much was yours if you don't mind me asking? Thanks for the help on the 609 I'll definitely look into that, sounds like a perfect solution! I have 40's too, I'll give that a go, heard good thinks about Sundays with x2 headsets in, always been tempted to try it. thanks for the advice again I'll put a picture up if I ever get round to doing all this!

Udi, which is the exact reducer cup model that I have to buy from work components? (-1 degree)
Also, do you know how much I can move boxxer´s lower crown to get up the BB height?

Ross -
Was about $120 for the frame / links and a bunch of other pieces, but the frame must be stripped / blasted first (for a nice factory finish at least, like specialized and santa cruz) which is the tricky part - must be glass bead, walnut, or soda blasted. Mine was the latter and I think that might have been about $80. It's hard to find a good blaster (at least here), and you can't use garnet/sand blasting as it'll destroy the frame.

DMdh -
The Sunday's headtube length is 127mm / 5" - so you want the cup for that headtube length. Standard 1.5" top and bottom. I think they call the length 125-129mm or something on the site now because there is some range of freedom in HT length, but it's originally made for the Sunday (middle of those numbers).

Unfortunately there isn't much height range in a Boxxer, all you can do is run the stanchions fully dropped so the top of the stanchion is flush with the upper crown (i.e. you can't see any stanchion poking above the upper crown clamp). The other thing you can do is make sure you have the correct sag in the rear, 30-35% - any more and the BB gets very low.

Hi all
I have a question for you... Before i had on my Sunday a DHX5 shock, with the setting 3 clicks on LSC and BOTTOM OUT full closed and all it´s OK.
Now I have an Elka Stage5 shock, and the people of Elka Suspensions says me that this shock works with the LSC almost closed and the HSC the more open as possible, but I don´t find the setting.
Someone can help me?

Thanks & Happy trails

Wow i can't believe the i made it to the end. I've got a sunday on the way and thanks to all the info in this thread i'm confident i can get it dialed. Its an 06 with the original linkage. I will be replacing the bearings with newer style as a precaution. I'd like to swap the lower link as well but will have to make some calls tomorrow to see if i can track down all the parts. The main difficulty will be finding the F7 10mm expanding parts in the front. For that Pearce overseas my be my only choice but at least it looks like i can get it. Two days and 3381 post later and a few cups of coffee later I have question.

Has any one tried sending off their old 5th element to avalanche for an update/rebuild? It could be a good choice if the performance is there and it would avoid some of the hassle of link modification or replacement to make other shocks work.

Thanks,

Allen

Allen,
My advice would be to avoid that route as the Sunday was designed specifically around a position sensitive damper - which the 5th element is in stock guise, however is no longer after the Avalanche update.

However one thing you could do is ask Avalanche to leave the position sensitive CVT assembly in the shock (so basically, the main piston remains stock), while installing the remainder of the upgrade (updated seals/sealhead and compression adjuster/s in the piggyback) - as the latter components work independently to the actual CVT mechanism. This would give you the benefit of lower stiction in the sealhead and presumably any improved compression adjustment range without removing the position sensitive component that the Sunday benefits from.

I'm sure Craig would be accommodating of this, and the overall cost should be cheaper (if not the same) as it will not require the aftermarket piston and piston bolt to be installed.

Yes position sensative works best with the rate on the Sunday but the dhx he does feels amazing on it.....
I've had a dhx, avalanche chubbie, dhx/avy mod and of them the modded dhx is spot on. My guess on that bike is the lack of reservoir size and i can twist the bottom out up and make it a bit more progressive.
A modded dhx is a very very solid shock on that frame.... love mine from big drops to racing.

Anyone ever ride 175mm cranks on a Sunday? I rode 170s for a long time..with easton flat boys...then caught a pedal and went OTB majorly...got freaked out and bought thin pedals and 165mm cranks...but they just seem too short and have no leverage...I'm thinking of sticking with the thin pedals but trying 175s for more leverage...but I know the BB is low...anyone try 175's??

freshwire said:

Anyone ever ride 175mm cranks on a Sunday? I rode 170s for a long time..with easton flat boys...then caught a pedal and went OTB majorly...got freaked out and bought thin pedals and 165mm cranks...but they just seem too short and have no leverage...I'm thinking of sticking with the thin pedals but trying 175s for more leverage...but I know the BB is low...anyone try 175's??

Click to expand...

170s with crampon pedals.

I did hook my toes in a lean in rocks and broke my toes under the pedal and rock as they folded a couple years ago. Been good si ce but yeah it lingers on your mind for a bit.

I`m riding 165 and don`t want go for 170 or 175. Already have to pay attention where to pedal and not to get hook up somewhere might additionally has something to do with the -2° K9 Cups

I've been riding 175mm for quite a while. I rode a good amount last season and only had a few hard bashes. Most of em were just skims over the top of rocks. I think it come down to how you ride and preference. I tend to pump over stuff versus pedaling so that might be part of it.

Marius said:

I`m riding 165 and don`t want go for 170 or 175. Already have to pay attention where to pedal and not to get hook up somewhere might additionally has something to do with the -2° K9 Cups

Click to expand...

I've got -1 top and bottom as well so its -2. Issue is placement and bad luck so times which is still better than no luck.

Hey guys,

I have just bought my first sunday and looking to modernise the geo a bit. Going to buy a works components headset. Just not sure how slack to go. It comes at 65 as standard and i was thinking just going for 63. Would that be to slack and also make the bb too low? What are your thoughts?

Cheers.

You'll have to decide if the bottom bracket is too low yourself.

I'm running mine at 62* with a 13" bottom bracket. I just swapped on a new 35mm Boxxer WC and haven't checked the geometry with that. I run 170mm cranks and rarely have pedal clipping issues with Spank Spike pedals.

Honestly I LOVE the way the bike rides when it's that low/slack. However, I'm going to try to raise the bottom bracket a bit to try to make the bike a little more "agile" feeling.
It's super stable and glued to the ground in all conditions right now, however it's sometimes a little extra work trying to get the "pop" mid trail without major weight transfer(Yeah, I've got zero muscle mass).

Yep 63 is solid and handles like a beast popping can be a bit hard but off the rebound a smidge add a little compression and it gets a bit better.
You can't go wrong 63-63.5 is a solid set up I ran a 64 at one point and the stock 65 and 64 was a good compromise but for the ridimgnhere the 63 rang is good.


Point is dont overthink it the differences 63 or 63.5 will be current and it rides solid with either so whichever is available or cheaper you cant go wrong.

Love the handling of these bikes slacked out for dh and free ride they are stable and controlled. The hit on this kicks the bike up as it drops away and then landing into a berm to a double then off a bigger drop and the bike is great.

Thanks for the helpful reply's. I will probably go for 63.5. Seems a good compromise. Just one more thing, would the vivid air shock fit the frame? And what is the eye 2 eye of the shock to fit the sunday?

Cheers.

Does any one know if the upper pivot bolt that goes through the frame for the newer F7 links works with the older 05/06 upper links? I see its listed as one of the design changes in the F7 linkage. I also have seen it listed as fitting all years and as 07 up and wanted to make sure before I buy one for a frame i'm building up with pre F7 upper links.

AL

allen said:

Does any one know if the upper pivot bolt that goes through the frame for the newer F7 links works with the older 05/06 upper links? I see its listed as one of the design changes in the F7 linkage. I also have seen it listed as fitting all years and as 07 up and wanted to make sure before I buy one for a frame i'm building up with pre F7 upper links.

AL

Click to expand...

Nope, not compatible. The F7 link uses a countersunk bolt and the older links do not.

Whoops, just re-read your post and realized you weren't talking about the upper shock mount bolt. The upper pivot bolt should be the same.

I've done a search but can't find anything, does anyone have any understanding on what installing some offset bushes will do to the suspension on a Sunday? I understand the consequences to the bikes geometry but I'm just wondering if anyone knows what adding some offset bushes in will do the the suspension leverage rate? Will it make it more linear? More progressive? Rising rate?

Overall plan is to add some angle reducer headset cups (slacken and lower the bike), then go add some offset bushes which will make the bike even slacker and lower, too slack and too low perhaps; so I'm going to stick a drop crown on to bring the BB back up to where I seem to like it (and giving a higher front end for the steeper stuff!) but I'm worried that the offsets will destroy the sundays anti-squat or even worse make the bike blow through the travel even more. In an ideal world I would love it if it made the shock more progressive!

Anyone?

Do you have the older pre-F7 linkage frame?

Yep it's an 06 frame.

Personally I'd stick to using the headset cups and fork height to get your HA and BB where you want them. There is absolutely no reason you'd need to use the offset bushes as well (for those purposes), as you can make the bike even unreasonably slack with just cups. If you have a 40, something I found works well is just using a -1* cup, and then using an extra inch or more of fork height to get an extra degree or more slacker while helping pull the BB back up close to stock height. It will still be lower than the stock 13.9 (mine is 13.75" or so) but I found the bike noticeably faster in rutted sections compared to having it at 13-13.5". I'd imagine similar results in Ireland where you are forced to pedal through less than ideal conditions.

With all that said however, I've thought about the same thing as you in terms of using the offset reducers to change the shock curve. At a *very* wild guess I think you'd leave the top mount as-is (or perhaps move it as rearward as possible), and move the bottom one to the full forward position, i.e. shock mounts closer to the front of the bike. One of the original prototype Sunday frames was more progressive at EOS and had a non-pivot-concentric shock mount that was slightly forward of the lower-front pivot.

That's just my guesswork and I think the closest way to check it yourself would be to move the shock mount positions in 'linkage' and see how it affected the curve. Not accurate by any means, but might be useful in telling you which direction to go in.

With all that said - the frame is quite adequately progressive with an RC4 thrown in. I would have considered things like the above before 2010 when the shock wasn't available, but not anymore.

I need your help guys. I borrowed my friend's dhx air while waiting for my rc4. can you help me with the main chamber air pressure? i have no idea on how many psi should be there. I'm 155 lbs with gear. BTW, here is my Sunday:

That's a very clean looking ride.

For the main chamber pressure, it's just dependent on body weight - and it's very easy to check sag on the air shock. You want 33% sag which is 1 inch of the shaft, so just pump in more or less pressure until you get the right amount when you sit on it. Unfortunately that might mean pulling the shock out a few times, so just leave the bolts loose to make it easy.

Thanks Udi! Will try it now. Yep, removing and mounting the shock is a PITA.

allen said:

Does any one know if the upper pivot bolt that goes through the frame for the newer F7 links works with the older 05/06 upper links? I see its listed as one of the design changes in the F7 linkage. I also have seen it listed as fitting all years and as 07 up and wanted to make sure before I buy one for a frame i'm building up with pre F7 upper links.

AL

Click to expand...

If you run offset bushings on a Sunday, there's a very good chance that the fender mount on the rear uprights will hit the back of the seat tube/frame uprights.

From 2007-2009 we ran most of the team bikes with unmodified frames and custom 1.5 degree e13 angle changing reducers and it worked out pretty well. My personal Sunday is still set up that way, so 63.5 HA 13.5-13.6BB ht depending on tires.

Dave

Udi said:

That's a very clean looking ride.

For the main chamber pressure, it's just dependent on body weight - and it's very easy to check sag on the air shock. You want 33% sag which is 1 inch of the shaft, so just pump in more or less pressure until you get the right amount when you sit on it. Unfortunately that might mean pulling the shock out a few times, so just leave the bolts loose to make it easy.

Click to expand...

On the DHX Air I ended up having to run more sag. I think I sat at 38%.
The rear shock started out super chatter-y and it was really easy to make it plenty progressive to prevent bottom out.

Astoria,
I know you PM'd me a while back and honestly, I still haven't pulled my shock yet. I just mounted my Boxxer the night before I got wiped out by bronchitis, strep throat and a bacterial respiratory infection all at once which kicked me out for 2 weeks.

Start with 150psi. I'm pretty sure it will get you close. I ran the bottom out at the 2nd line from full in. Boost chamber I don't recall, I know I started with the settings recommended on the front page for the coil.
My DHX air was propedal on or off. I flipped it to off.
I'm also 155 so our settings should be similar.

Yeah that was just a baseline. I ran 35-38% when I ran a DHX Air too because like you said it's easy to get progression out of them.

Don't think you need to make the bottom out adjuster too progressive either (I'd probably run it closer to open) because the shock ramps up a fair bit on its own. I'd only wind it in if you're actually bottoming out.

BMXConvert,
Sorry to hear that. Hope you get well soon.

So here's my initial set up: 33% sag @ 155 psi (tried 150 but I felt that the sag was too much, so I decided to settle at 155). Bottom out 1/2 turn out from full in and boost vavle at 140 psi.

I am hestiant on trying out what you guys suggest about the bottom out adjustment. On my DHX 5.0, I am bottoming out like mad on full in @ 130 psi (its an old DHX 5.0 I think it was an '06 model min. 75 psi in the chamber). Is the DHX Air really progressive than a DHX?

Air springs are very different to coil springs. They are not linear and there is a lot of ramp-up at the end of stroke inherent in the design.

At the end of the day personal preference is important so run whatever you are comfortable with - but as a reference point you don't need the same degree of damping progression (if at all) in an air sprung shock as you would with a coil shock in a Sunday.

I've run both of the shocks you mention and had the same experience with the DHX5 coil and a very different experience with the air - no mad bottoming. Also while not a perfectly accurate description, when you get your RC4 you'll find that you get the bottoming resistance of the air shock with the early stroke sensitivity of the coil shock.

I run a DHX 5.0 air on my 6-point and run 140lbs in the main can and 125-130 in the boost valve. I'm also around 155lbs with gear. With a shim inside the can and lots of tinkering I've found that with bikes like these you really want to run the least amount of pressure in the boost valve that you can get away with.

Hey,

Apologies that this is probably a common question/problem but i can't find it specifically after searching through a fair few pages of this thread.

I recently got a 2nd hand 06 sunday factory (though with F7 linkages and MAX-E bearings) and alls been well until the last ride when i noticed the rear triangles developed some lateral play in the dw link. This is the 3rd time i've ridden since building it up so i'm guessing it was probably pre-existing but i somehow missed it checking over the frame and fairly certain it wasn't there when i checked.

Anyway, i've taken it all apart the bearings are a bit shot and will be replaced. However i noticed that there's play with the linkage bolt inside the dw-link itself, it also rotates freely in the link. Is the wear causing this play generally in the hole of the dw-link or the linkage bolt itself?

Any advice to avoid further wear also welcome! I've seen mentions of using bearing retainer to try and stop the linkage bolt rotating in the dwlink, anything else?

Edit: If a new links required to get rid of the play, does anyone have any good words for these links? http://www.licycleworx.com/product_p/ih-sunll.htm Price difference is huge to other options, and it looks identical to my current link.

I've covered the issue in great detail on this thread, you just have to be patient and read backwards through it (it makes it a lot easier if you go to your forum setting and increase post count per page).

A brief explanation is at post #1899 here which should cover what you need.

- Yes it's the hole in the linkage that causes it
- No there are no other solutions (short of replacing the link, and the problem will likely still develop again over time)
- If you do follow my instructions to the dot, it will fix the problem.

The key is to be generous with the stuff, and stop moving or touching the frame immediately after (fast) assembly and leave it to set for at least 24h. If there's still play, you'll have to re-do it because the fluid moved away from the gap - but once done correctly it will be firm and very much permanent.

astoria said:

BMXConvert,
Sorry to hear that. Hope you get well soon.

So here's my initial set up: 33% sag @ 155 psi (tried 150 but I felt that the sag was too much, so I decided to settle at 155). Bottom out 1/2 turn out from full in and boost vavle at 140 psi.

I am hestiant on trying out what you guys suggest about the bottom out adjustment. On my DHX 5.0, I am bottoming out like mad on full in @ 130 psi (its an old DHX 5.0 I think it was an '06 model min. 75 psi in the chamber). Is the DHX Air really progressive than a DHX?

Click to expand...

I think you may find your ride to be super chattery with the boost valve cranked up so much.
I had serious problems with bottom out my DHX coil as well and tried similar settings on the DHX air and hated the results.
My shock came off a DHi so the tuning is probably different than yours, but.. I'm betting you'll want to drop pressure in the Boost Valve and back off the bottom out(unless you're running on smooth trail).

I have a small gap between the lower link and the rear triangle bearins (1 mm aprox.) but I don´t have any lateral play.
It´s normal???

DMdh
i have such gap too. it is okay.

a question to others:

today i decided to change oil in the shock. to take off the shock i need to disassemble the suspention. when i unscrewed bearing retainer (drive side), the bearing came out with it. it looks like it's fitted on bearing retainer pretty good - i couldn't separate them even with flat screwdriver. i am a bit confused about it. i thought it must be pressed in the frame and sit there all the time (from the non-drive side bearing sits in the frame). so how must it be? bearing must come out with bearing retainer or it must stay on the frame? if it must stay, than something wrong in my case and i'm afraid that bearing will destroy it's seatplace in frame with his rotation while riding. so maybe i need to fix it there with good thread fixator?


in-frame bearing seatplace
bearing
part 17 unscrews with the bearing on it and it looks like they attached each to other pretty good.

You shouldn't need to remove part 17 to remove the shock, only 6 and 16 (and the screw identical to 6 on the other side of 16).

Anyway, you can use heat from a blowtorch to weaken any loctite if you want to remove the bearing from the part, however that may damage the bearing and seals (not a problem if you are replacing it). If you are not replacing the bearing, just leave it as it is.

It is unlikely the bearing will rotate inside the frame like you say - as long as the bearing is in good condition and rotating normally, it will stay still in the frame when under load. If you want to make sure though, clean the outside of the bearing and the inside of the frame where it seats (outside of green #19 and inside of red part in your diagram), and apply loctite 609 retaining compound to both surfaces and install. Leave to set for 24h.

The bearing will definitely not rotate in the frame after this.

thanks for good advise, bro! i think i will fix it that way tomorrow.

Good to see an actual pic and parts numbers needed for others.