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Bad Batch? Specialized Butcher SX

davec113

davec113

Monkey
May 24, 2009
419
0
I picked up a Butcher 2.3 SX tire last month, and I believe the rubber durometer is WAY off... the side knobs are soft... soft like Maxxis 40a slow rezay. I'm running it on the back of my Trek Remedy, I have about 35 miles on it, and the tire is wearing CRAZY FAST

I also have Butchers on my DH bike, 2.3s with the DH casing. The DH version has much harder rubber and it's supposed to be 42a/70 base while the SX is supposed to be 45/50. The DH version rolls a lot faster and wears a lot slower.

I brought the SX tire back to a local spec dealer and they refused to take it back. From what I know, this violates Specialized return policy, they allow returns if you're not satisfied with the product. They sold me another tire at cost, but now I have an overly soft Butcher that's almost useless and I spent more money that I shouldn't have had to.

edit: corrected details
 
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VMARTINEZ

VMARTINEZ

Monkey
May 23, 2005
303
18
Contact another S shop. They stand behind the tires. If you don't like it they will replace it no questions asked.
If not contact the sales rep and let him know about the shop.
Bad ju ju for them.
VM
 
landcruiser

landcruiser

Monkey
May 9, 2002
186
40
San Jose, CA
We are so confident in the performance of our tires that we are now providing an unconditional satisfaction guarantee on every tire we make for 90 days from the original date of the tire's purchase.

If for any reason, you are not satisfied with any Specialized tire, just return it to the store you purchased it from with a proof of purchase, and they will exchange it for another Specialized tire of equivalent value.
Click to expand...
If the shop denied you within the 90 days, they're violating our policy.

PM'd for details of your tire comments.
 
davec113

davec113

Monkey
May 24, 2009
419
0
landcruiser said:
If the shop denied you within the 90 days, they're violating our policy.

PM'd for details of your tire comments.
Click to expand...
That's what I thought. When I brought up the satisfaction guarantee the shop employee said he could "look into it". Then he said they didn't want to get stuck with the tire, that it had been used and can't be returned. I don't think I have my receipt (they didn't ask), but the Butcher SX were out of stock until the end of January, and I didn't pick mine up until February... so it's well within 90 days and the tire has only been used for a few rides, I'd guess about 35 miles... but definitely under 50 miles, for sure.

Thanks for the PM, I sent you an email back.
 
bizutch

bizutch

Delicate CUSTOM flower
Dec 11, 2001
15,928
24
Over your shoulder whispering
I had a Specialized Enduro tire a few years back that the side wall wore through before the knobs even lost the little dimples. I'd have never thought to ask for a tire warranty on anything, but the shop swapped it out asap. :thumb: "insert cool story bro here"
 
landcruiser

landcruiser

Monkey
May 9, 2002
186
40
San Jose, CA
Technically, you need the receipt for the guarantee to be honored, but that really tends to be at the shop's discretion. Your shop guy should never be worried about being "stuck with the tire." We take our guarantee seriously.

As for the Butcher SX's and the concerns raised in the thread... Based on our email discussion, I don't think it's a bad batch.

Like you said, the DH version uses the 70a base rubber to support and reinforce the softer 40a surface layer of rubber. This results in max grip with decent durability.

The SX version uses a single 45a durometer for the side knobs, and 50a for the center. The idea here is to get a little more longevity out of the center (since people may be doing more climbing with the SX), while leaving the side knobs softer for more grip.

The downside to the SX version is that we do hear of accelerated wear from those riding hard enough to push the limits of the less-supported side knobs. I find it happens more often on the rear (like you're using it), where the knobs are stressed during drifts/skids/etc.

Depending on your trail conditions, riding style, and tire needs, you might decide that the SX tires just aren't your best choice, which is ideally why your shop should be able to provide you with a suitable alternative through our guarantee.

Again, thanks for the feedback here and in your emails.
 
davec113

davec113

Monkey
May 24, 2009
419
0
Thanks landcruiser.

I'd also add (please correct me if I got it wrong) that you mentioned the grid casing tires as having similar durability to an SX tire with rubber durometers better suited for trail riding. And as far as rolling resistance, Ground Control>Captain>Purgatory but the Purg has better cornering traction. I'll probably try the GC 2.3 Grid as a rear tire, I like fast rolling and a little drifty is ok.

As far as the Butcher SX, if you can imagine a 950 gram minion dhf with super tacky center and slow rezay sideknobs, that's about how it rides. It might be a good option for some people out there for some uses, IDK... but probably as a front tire only, the dh casing version rolls noticeably faster so would probably be faster as a rear tire despite the extra weight, and a little extra beef on the rear end is nice... ;)
 
bizutch

bizutch

Delicate CUSTOM flower
Dec 11, 2001
15,928
24
Over your shoulder whispering
landcruiser said:
Technically, you need the receipt for the guarantee to be honored, but that really tends to be at the shop's discretion. Your shop guy should never be worried about being "stuck with the tire." We take our guarantee seriously.

As for the Butcher SX's and the concerns raised in the thread... Based on our email discussion, I don't think it's a bad batch.

Like you said, the DH version uses the 70a base rubber to support and reinforce the softer 40a surface layer of rubber. This results in max grip with decent durability.

The SX version uses a single 45a durometer for the side knobs, and 50a for the center. The idea here is to get a little more longevity out of the center (since people may be doing more climbing with the SX), while leaving the side knobs softer for more grip.

The downside to the SX version is that we do hear of accelerated wear from those riding hard enough to push the limits of the less-supported side knobs. I find it happens more often on the rear (like you're using it), where the knobs are stressed during drifts/skids/etc.

Depending on your trail conditions, riding style, and tire needs, you might decide that the SX tires just aren't your best choice, which is ideally why your shop should be able to provide you with a suitable alternative through our guarantee.

Again, thanks for the feedback here and in your emails.
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Pure awesome. The only thing you could do better is to make it rain DH tires at my house. When you've done that, retire. :thumb:
 
cjcrashesalot

cjcrashesalot

Monkey
May 15, 2005
345
13
WA
I have a 2.3 Butcher on the front of my trail bike from about July last year and agree the side knobs are very soft. That being said, it wears far better than any minion with comparably soft rubber. I'm just now having the side knobs think about chunking off, and it's been ridden hard for many miles.

Another note, I would definitely not recommend any of the current Grid UST tires for the front. Tried the Eskar and the Purgatory, neither was confidence inspiring. I put the Eskar on the rear, which combined with the Butcher up front is a pretty good trail setup for me. Rolls reasonably well, wears well, and grips well. Purgatory was also a good rear tire when I had it back there, though it had weird characteristics when braking while starting a turn.
 
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H

hardboiled

Chimp
May 15, 2006
23
0
right behind you
landcruiser, if you are still watching this thread, please please please tell your tire folks to make the Butcher in Armadillo and GRID casings for trail/pedally bike use. I'm running the Butcher Control front and rear and after only ~2 weeks my rear tire already has several sidewall cuts, so it looks like I'm going to have to replace it soon. Otherwise it's a great tire, surprisingly fast rolling for a 50d compound with excellent traction all around. I'm bummed to have to find a new tire to run in the rear.
 
davec113

davec113

Monkey
May 24, 2009
419
0
hardboiled said:
landcruiser, if you are still watching this thread, please please please tell your tire folks to make the Butcher in Armadillo and GRID casings for trail/pedally bike use. I'm running the Butcher Control front and rear and after only ~2 weeks my rear tire already has several sidewall cuts, so it looks like I'm going to have to replace it soon. Otherwise it's a great tire, surprisingly fast rolling for a 50d compound with excellent traction all around. I'm bummed to have to find a new tire to run in the rear.
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Yeah, Control casing doesn't work for a rear tire in rocky conditions.

After talking to landcruiser I got a Ground Control Grid 2.3 for a rear tire and I'm VERY happy with it. I'm lazy so here's a copy and paste of my impressions of the GC grid:


I got in one ride in with the Ground Control Grid 2.3 as my rear tire. The GC Grid is probably the fastest rolling tire I've ever used. We had hero dirt yesterday, and it felt like the GC railed very well and the sidekobs feel very solid, I noticed they have a large base-area supporting them so they aren't flexing too much or folding over. When they did break traction it felt predictable. I'll have to see how they do when it dries out and things get dusty... Also, climbing and braking traction seemed really good, they felt solid when climbing out of the saddle. On the low-angle parts of the trail, I felt like I was going a good bit faster than normal in places because the tire rolls so fast... it maintains momentum through parts of trail that are flat but you can't pedal through and accelerates out of corners fast. It also seems like the sidewalls will be beefy enough to last. So far, it seems like an ideal rear tire for my trailbike.

Follow-up:

So I have a few rides on the GC grid, and I'm surprised how good this tire is. It's def more drifty in loose and dry conditions, but so is everything... a few trails around here have some slippery decomposing rock/sand in the corners and the GC breaks traction very predictably, feels nice and safe. I'm also surprised by the climbing traction, it does really well there too... I was a bit skeptical because it really doesn't look like it's going to perform as well as it does... it doesn't look like it's a fast rolling tire and it has a lot more grip than you'd guess from looking at the low profile knobs.

Anyway, the GC is by far the best rear tire for trail use I've ever tried, given my personal preferences. I've tried other tires that have a bit more overall grip and many, many others that are lighter but not durable enough... for a trail tire extra grip isn't worth a LOT more rolling resistance. I'm not sure I'd try using the GC as a front tire, but I'll give the Butcher Control a go on the front after my Conti TK wears out, it has softer rubber and seems like it might be more suitable as a front tire where I value grip and predictability more than rolling resistance.
 
landcruiser

landcruiser

Monkey
May 9, 2002
186
40
San Jose, CA
hardboiled said:
landcruiser, if you are still watching this thread, please please please tell your tire folks to make the Butcher in Armadillo and GRID casings for trail/pedally bike use. I'm running the Butcher Control front and rear and after only ~2 weeks my rear tire already has several sidewall cuts, so it looks like I'm going to have to replace it soon. Otherwise it's a great tire, surprisingly fast rolling for a 50d compound with excellent traction all around. I'm bummed to have to find a new tire to run in the rear.
Click to expand...
Sorry you've had trouble with the control casing on the rear. With the current variety of Butcher Control, SX and DH casings, I can't say we've had too much pressure to expand to other constructions yet. Of course we always try to listen to our customer's requests so when we see (or anticipate) enough demand, we do our best to provide the right tires for any rider/terrain.

As long as we're copying/pasting, here's a portion of my recommendations for Dave:

I use the Butcher Control almost exclusively as a front tire (as do most of the mountain guys here). For the rear (in any casing), it can be a toss-up between the Purgatory and the Ground Control. IMO the Purg has better cornering traction, while the GC is the faster rolling of the two. I prefer the Purg, but even some of our most aggressive guys prefer the GC since it’s noticeably faster and some of them even like the fact that it’s easier to break loose for drifting the rear. So it might depend on your riding style, but if you like the cornering characteristics of the Butcher, the Purg is a better match for that in my opinion. The Purg is big for a 2.2, so it’s actually pretty comparable in size to the Ground Control 2.3.

I guess there’s also the Captain 2.2 in Grid, which would fall between the Purg and GC. Most riders here that used the Captain have switched to the GC (again for rolling speed), but the Captain is still really popular in specific regions.

We find that Control casing tends to be fine for 75% of riders and their trails, but riders in really rocky areas (Arizona, CO, etc) make the most frequent complaints. Those are the places where GRID tires hold up a lot better.

And a quick follow up to Dave's feedback on the GC, response's like his our my favorite. A lot of riders don't seem that impressed with the looks of the tire, but once they ride it, they come back really happy. That happened a lot during our first field tests and really made us confident that we had a solid tire to release into the line up.
 
worship_mud

worship_mud

Turbo Monkey
Dec 9, 2006
1,464
2
interesting info! maybe the thread title should be changed, kinda misleading atm, with all the input from everyone!
 
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