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What should you EXPECT from a new bike park

SinatorJ

Monkey
Jul 9, 2002
582
51
AZ
So, doing some research here and am wondering what are realistic expectations from a lift served bike park within its first 3 years? Trail counts? events? Style? any other stuff that would be expected. Lodging and food will be no more than 20 min from lifts and closest Intl airport is 2 hours away...Possibility of 1500 Vert.
 

UiUiUiUi

Turbo Monkey
Feb 2, 2003
1,378
0
Berlin, Germany
honestly it all depends on their budget, the dedication of the team and the landowners, this correlating with the pricing of the lift tickets will set the expectations.
 

SinatorJ

Monkey
Jul 9, 2002
582
51
AZ
What we are getting from the land manager is we have the cash and want to go big with this. Pretty much wan2 go no holds barred, but under Forest service guidlines ie Crested Butte Evolution bike park.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
I'd say trail quality over quantity. I know of many places that boast they have a ton of trails while actualy one of them is rideable and none of them is really good. On the other hand places like Maribor have 3 legal trails + some hidden ones and are a blast to ride. Look up what other praised bikeparks do good and try to do it better.
Events are good for marketing. Especially the wacky ones that are for everyone, not only for the pro crowd. Host a chainless race or a 24h dh marathon.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Hire people that know what the fvck they're doing when they build trails.

That's priority numbers 1, 2, and 3 for a lot of people.


Too many places want whistler's success but want to pay winter holdover lifties who don't ride bikes minimum wage to swing a shovel around for a few hours a day. That kind of thing shows in the final product.
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,648
3,089
Variety, as mentioned before. If you have limited resources don't start building a gnar-gnar trail first. A fun trail that makes inexperienced riders happy but that also can be fun for pros would be high on my list (e.g. Crank it up). This is key if you want to make the park viable. In lots of (smaller) places they build stuff that is over the head of 90% of the people they try to attract because it was built by good riders that only thought about their own fun.
I would start with building blue style runs (in the beginning I don't think you attract true newbies that require green runs) and then move to black style tracks next. The riding population in your area (more racers or more freeride dudes?) determines the style of the first black runs that you build.

And like Woo said: Hire people that know what the fvck they're doing. :D

Good luck!
 

DirtMcGirk

<b>WAY</b> Dumber than N8 (to the power of ten alm
Feb 21, 2008
6,379
1
Oz
I see on your info you're in AZ. Where are you thinking of doing this?

I'd say, from a simple point of view, you need:
- Something like A Line or Live Wire.
- Something like Gypsy at Northstar
- Something like ninja cougar

Start with four to five really GOOD trails. Like everyone else has said, just hiring lifties to throw dirt for you isn't gonna do it. I'd rather drive a long drive for a really good set of trails then to drive short and ride crap.
 

Scrub

Turbo Monkey
Feb 4, 2003
1,453
119
NOR CAL, Sac/CoCo County
Golf cart beer/snack wagon in the parking lot will bring in lots of extra cash. Who wants to leave a bike park for food and drinks throughout the day? But trail builders with knowledge is key to having a great park.
 

BigHitComp04

Monkey
Jun 20, 2005
586
3
Morgantown, WV
Hire people that know what the fvck they're doing when they build trails.

That's priority numbers 1, 2, and 3 for a lot of people.


Too many places want whistler's success but want to pay winter holdover lifties who don't ride bikes minimum wage to swing a shovel around for a few hours a day. That kind of thing shows in the final product.
I agree with this. Hiring GOOD trailbuilders who also ride with essentially make the park. Diablo (or whatever it is now) is a good example. The trails are well built and fun to ride and all the builders ride and race.
 

canadmos

Cake Tease
May 29, 2011
20,197
19,160
Canaderp
Picnic tables to eat your own food at, near the cars. When I pay to goto a resort with lift access, I try to save money in other ways. My group usually brings food in a cooler from home. Saves on a lot of cash.
 

Scrub

Turbo Monkey
Feb 4, 2003
1,453
119
NOR CAL, Sac/CoCo County
Picnic tables to eat your own food at, near the cars. When I pay to goto a resort with lift access, I try to save money in other ways. My group usually brings food in a cooler from home. Saves on a lot of cash.
I think you're missng the point of the OP's question. It's not where the customer saves money, but where the customer's money is spent for the bike park to stay open and pay the bills for the lift to operate.
 

epic

Turbo Monkey
Sep 15, 2008
1,041
21
How about he converse of this question, what is not necessary for a new bike park?

Considering how much action I see in them and how much they must cost to build, I wonder about slopestyle parks.
 

canadmos

Cake Tease
May 29, 2011
20,197
19,160
Canaderp
I think you're missng the point of the OP's question. It's not where the customer saves money, but where the customer's money is spent for the bike park to stay open and pay the bills for the lift to operate.
I understand that, but for example around here most of the resorts and riding spots jack up the cost of food. You end up paying $10-12 for something that would cost $6-7 back in town.

The less money I have to spend on crappy over priced food, the more lift tickets I can buy and the more gas I can purchase to get to the hill. Just having that option is nice.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,032
5,924
borcester rhymes
I'd shoot for 4 trails on opening day, and plan to get at least 6 within three years. That's one new trail a year, and it keeps people coming back.

Take a look at Highland, but learn from their mistakes. Their first trail was NE Style, and it was a balls-out North Shore wannabee trail that lacked flow and crippled riders. Virtually every trail they've built after that has been far more popular and NE style hardly gets any use now. Now they have about 6 trails, virtually every turn is a berm, and people froth at the mouth about it. Laid back is the last thing I'd call broland, but that's another story.

I'd build at least one gA-line style trail, with berms and flow and jumps, and build one XXXomg DH death trail, and then two moderate, singletrack, DH runs that have a lot of speed and flow. Then you have something for everybody, and something to build on. The following year, you can build what people are riding. Another death trail? Go for it. Another BMXTB trail, done. This is pretty much what Highland has done, and most every new trail they build is a buffed out berm trail, but that's what people are diggin on.

I'd also hire a good trail builder. Take a look at Burke MT in Vermont. They have two trails that are hand built by Knight Ide, and they're fantastic. Highland's trails were largely built with the help of a pro who's name I can't remember right now. Try to get somebody good and let them have fun. You can probably get away with a partially volunteer trail crew, but it's worth paying to get a good trail laid out.

Lift options are pretty simple based on how much you want to pay. I agree that wheel hooks are awful, and dedicated bike trays are the best, but even with crappy hooks on the side of chairs, you can still get a decent rhythm going. Just put hooks on every chair, and then the liftee has flexibility with keeping lift lines down. That's something that always bugged me about plattekill. You have to wait forever to get 5 people up.

Finally, the lodge area should have basic accoutrements like bathrooms and hopefully some kind of food stand, even if it's a guy on a grill. Selling beer is a great idea though. Camping is awesome, if it can be done, as people can make a cheap weekend of it. You should have some kind of a shop, mostly to sell spare tires, tubes, brake fluid, and a few random parts so people can get back on the mountain. I wouldn't bother stocking a variety of apparel and such, but just some bare necessities that people forget or break.

That's how I'd do it, anyways, after riding 90% of the east coast's resorts.
 

epic

Turbo Monkey
Sep 15, 2008
1,041
21
I agree with almost all of what Sandwich says above. You don't need a lot of trails. You just need good ones. You can't start with all hard-core trails either. Since we are using Highland as an example so much here, I think there are two Highlands, there's before Happy Hour and after. The place is different now. I think that in the early days of your operation, it would be nice to have trails that people can ride on bikes they already own. Once they get hooked they can buy a DH bike or park bike or whatever, but it would be nice if they could enjoy it on the bike they already own.

I certainly wouldn't overlook the things that are peripheral to the actual riding either. No matter how many riders you have, you need a good $$ yield per rider. F&B, retail and programs all help to provide that. I'm not saying bend people over for a $12 hamburger, but don't just walk away from it either.
 

DH biker

Turbo Monkey
Dec 12, 2004
1,185
0
North East
What we are getting from the land manager is we have the cash and want to go big with this. Pretty much wan2 go no holds barred, but under Forest service guidlines ie Crested Butte Evolution bike park.
Forest Service can get pretty strict about erosion. So building trails with that in mind is huge. I know they closed down drops at Attitash that were on Forest Service land.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,032
5,924
borcester rhymes
I think there are two Highlands, there's before Happy Hour and after. The place is different now. I think that in the early days of your operation, it would be nice to have trails that people can ride on bikes they already own. Once they get hooked they can buy a DH bike or park bike or whatever, but it would be nice if they could enjoy it on the bike they already own.
I hadn't thought about it like that, but I think it's true too. Highland was very different before they brought on Dave Smutok (finally figured it out) but now the trails are really quite rideable. Before they were really built as an example of how extreme a thing can be. First time I went, three riders broke bones, one on the step up step down, one on the silly roller coaster, and one on the dreadful old maiden.

The second point is even better. BUILD A BEGINNER COURSE. Highland is fantastic with this- they have a skills park, a foam pit, and XC trail, and now two very easy trails designed very specifically for people who don't have matching kits. I feel like this is essential for bringing new people to the sport. A lot of mountains fail miserably at this, either by not having any options, or not having a clear demarcation of what's beginner/easy. So few mountains on the east coast invest any money into signage, and a lot of the ones that do are pretty poor. There were lots of beginners and new riders at plattekill last weekend, and a lot of them looked lost. I couldn't even remember where half the trails were, and I've ridden there for ~14 years. Get a decent map and a can of spray paint + plywood, and you're gold. Doesn't have to be super-bro trail names, just #14 O and you're good to go.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,573
24,193
media blackout
I hadn't thought about it like that, but I think it's true too. Highland was very different before they brought on Dave Smutok (finally figured it out) but now the trails are really quite rideable. Before they were really built as an example of how extreme a thing can be. First time I went, three riders broke bones, one on the step up step down, one on the silly roller coaster, and one on the dreadful old maiden.

The second point is even better. BUILD A BEGINNER COURSE. Highland is fantastic with this- they have a skills park, a foam pit, and XC trail, and now two very easy trails designed very specifically for people who don't have matching kits. I feel like this is essential for bringing new people to the sport. A lot of mountains fail miserably at this, either by not having any options, or not having a clear demarcation of what's beginner/easy. So few mountains on the east coast invest any money into signage, and a lot of the ones that do are pretty poor. There were lots of beginners and new riders at plattekill last weekend, and a lot of them looked lost. I couldn't even remember where half the trails were, and I've ridden there for ~14 years. Get a decent map and a can of spray paint + plywood, and you're gold. Doesn't have to be super-bro trail names, just #14 O and you're good to go.

one other thing to point out; re: beginner trails, is make sure there's also a good selection of intermediate trails. i've been to plays where its either super easy or super tech, with little in between. with intermediate trails, its ok to have stunts intermixed, but its important to have a go-around, and also that they are both well marked.
 

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
117
San Francisco
The second point is even better. BUILD A BEGINNER COURSE.
This cannot be stressed enough. Sufficient beginner and intermidate trails are CRITICAL. I want bike parks to make money, more money=more trails and lifts open. Parks shouldn't just cater to advanced riders. It is obvious that most people don't have the interest/ability to ride 30 foot doubles and vertical rock walls. They will make more money and have a bigger network of trails if they develop their green, "teal", and blue trails. Especially the teal ones. I have yet to see a park that does a really good job of getting people from the buffed out flat switchback trails into moderately challenging trails without too big of jump in difficulty (lNorthstar is especially guilty of this).

Resorts should realize that most MTB'ers have girlfriends. MTB'ers would be able to go on more resort trips if they were able to get those girlfriends into MTB at the resort.
 
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jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,573
24,193
media blackout
agree 100%. At the end of the day, bike parks are a business. Making customers feel frustrated because terrain is too hard for them (or conversely, too easy) doesn't translate into repeat customers. If people show up, ride, enjoy themselves, and have FUN they are gonna come back.
 

DORO

Monkey
Jun 15, 2006
131
0
I'd shoot for 4 trails on opening day, and plan to get at least 6 within three years. Take a look at Highland, but learn from their mistakes. Their first trail was NE Style, and it was a balls-out North Shore wannabee trail that lacked flow and crippled riders.
correction, Maiden Voyage was the first trail built. Just for those history buffs on RM. Lets keep facts straight. It was built with the thought in mind to cator to the "core" mountian group and then build from there. It created buzz, was put on the map and now look at them. Some may argue but Mark had a vision and it's coming to fruition 1 step at a time. I can't argue that there was some scary **** built which was toned down over the years. Not perfect but I think they did it right minus a few lickalotpusses and step downs.
 

DirtMcGirk

<b>WAY</b> Dumber than N8 (to the power of ten alm
Feb 21, 2008
6,379
1
Oz
Resorts should realize that most MTB'ers have girlfriends. MTB'ers would be able to go on more resort trips if they were able to get those girlfriends into MTB at the resort.
This is the most truth I've seen posted on here. My ex-wife was super cool about riding weekends and coming with me when she could, but she liked the road, I had my friends at TFK for her to BS around with while we rode, and eventually I talked her into getting her own DH bike.

My girlfriend now isn't as much of a fan of road trips, and would rather use her very limited vacation time on things like going to Hawaii or San Diego. I understand this. But it also means on where maybe I'd be headed to Whistler for a second time, or up to Tahoe if she was into that kind of riding, it instead means my money and I are going somewhere else.
 

epic

Turbo Monkey
Sep 15, 2008
1,041
21
I think a lot of the trail-builders don't even know what a beginner is or have never ridden with one. For a beginner rider (and I use the term beginner loosely) even trails like Fancy Feast and Meadows End can feel huge. I mean they are off their bikes in the first hundred feet. Highland is getting better at this, but I think Burke Bike Park is doing better, and Sugarloaf Bike Parc in New Brunswick is the best I've seen. You could take anyone who has gotten past training wheels on their beginner trail and they have a clear progression from that to stuff that is much more advanced.
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,647
1,116
NORCAL is the hizzle
Resorts should realize that most MTB'ers have girlfriends.
If that is true, why are most mtb events complete sausage fests? :D

Seriously, I agree with the consistent theme here: Hire some quality folks to build your trails (or at least to direct/supervise). I agree that quality over quantity is the way to go, but eventually there should be a variety for different skill levels and trail preference.

As for extras, offer at least some basic food and drink at the hill (not "20 minutes away"). It's great if you can offer bike rentals (so noobs can get hooked), and sell some basic parts/gear. (These extras also bring in more dollars, so everybody wins.)

And one thing I didn't see mentioned earlier: Trail maintenance. Paying to ride clapped out trails is pretty frustrating. Make sure the existing stuff is in good shape before working on new trails or features.
 

ruralrider

Chimp
Nov 22, 2011
39
0
NY
Somewhere where the corners actually work for a bike. I have been on some trails that there have been some wtf moments because I missed a corner at high speed. Also somewhere that offers a good range of skill level beginner to expert. I still like riding there and I will continue to as well.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,032
5,924
borcester rhymes
correction, Maiden Voyage was the first trail built. Just for those history buffs on RM. Lets keep facts straight. It was built with the thought in mind to cator to the "core" mountian group and then build from there. It created buzz, was put on the map and now look at them. Some may argue but Mark had a vision and it's coming to fruition 1 step at a time. I can't argue that there was some scary **** built which was toned down over the years. Not perfect but I think they did it right minus a few lickalotpusses and step downs.
Well, you're mostly arguing semantics but I'll bite anyways. If maiden was the first trail every built, then fine, it will still go down in my book as arguably the worst "DH" trail ever built. It was the equivalent of something you might find at lynn woods or your friend's backyard. Everything since then has been a small upgrade until the re-work of upper hemlock, then the rework of NE style, then the rework of FF, then the addition of happy hour, then the addition of hellion, and so on. There was like one year where the trail building direction changed, and it's been better since then.

Anyways, IMO it wasn't necessarily that those trails created 'buzz' that promoted highland, but rather #1) Location, and 2) enormous investment. Highland is only 1.5hr from Boston, and is easily accessible from all of New England. That proximity makes it a prime destination vs. 2.5 hrs for Jiminy, 3 for SR, and 3.5 for Killington, which were all the closest options. I think the prime factor is the investment though, both financially and time wise. One thing that people may not realize is that since Highland is a bike-only park, the trails do not get plowed in the winter time. That's why Alpine was so successful, and what I think a lot of other mountains forget. Highland has the ability to make fantastic trails with no fear that they'll be gone by Spring. Add to that the operators and employees are die-hard committed to bikes, and you don't get the attitude that biking is a sideshow to bring a few more dollars in the summertime. Finally, they spend a ton of money on that place. The training centers, camps, facilities, shop, lift, trails, drainage, EVERYTHING is for bikes and it's all done right. No other mountain can boast that. I think that's why Highland succeeds...people want to ride there, and by treating bikers like customers, they keep going back.