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New Saint 820 stoppers sure are sexy

Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
dropmachine.com said:
FFS
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What about the costs of development and the costs of designing / buying / implementing the advanced tooling that shimano would use?

If you can't see the improvements in the new brake then you probably haven't tried them both - the old lever had a number of flaws that are now fixed, and a number of changes have been made to allow the brake to be lighter (from what I can see - eg. lever, 2 bolts instead of 4 bolts clamping caliper, aluminium hose hardware) and better at cooling.

For what it's worth I don't currently own any Shimano brakes (I run Formula) but I think they develop some very good products and the prices aren't unreasonable when you take that into account. They also aren't the marketing machine you suggest IMO - a lot of people that buy their products just seem to be happy repeat customers.
 
D

dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,922
10
Your face.
So wait a second...the brake has been out for what, 1-2 months, but you know for a fact that all the issues are fixed? How many people did you actually pool to get these results? Thats some pretty magical foresight you have there. ;)

Commenting on durability is pointless until the product is in the hands of the muppet masses. Once a 14 year old whistler ripping kid or the sport level crash-14-times-a-day racer has them for 6 months with no problems, then I'll be more impressed.

And I clearly see more than you'd think. I know there are improvements to the brakes. ANyone can see that. However, I also know that initial reviews are almost always done with rose coloured glasses on, and everything is always amazing when you're at press camps riding tuned and reporting on tailored parts. I've been there.

Face it. New saint stuff is expensive because they can charge it, and people will pay it. Its not wrong, but its dissapointing I guess? I suppose Shimano can't be blamed. They make excellent stuff, no arguing that. My fave drivetrain stuff for sure. But the problem is this furthers the trend of upward pricing, pushing competitors to raise theirs to match preceived quality and product competitiveness. Just wishful thinking that MTB would bypass that ****ty game.
 
Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
I was simply suggesting that there are noticeable improvements in the new brake, enough to justify its release.

They cost $500 for a pair on CRC, I think that's perfectly reasonable for an arguably class-leading product that just came out. If you can't afford it, either wait until you can, or don't buy it. Pretty simple.
 
norbar

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,362
1,598
Warsaw :/
dropmachine.com said:
So wait a second...the brake has been out for what, 1-2 months, but you know for a fact that all the issues are fixed? How many people did you actually pool to get these results? Thats some pretty magical foresight you have there. ;)

Commenting on durability is pointless until the product is in the hands of the muppet masses. Once a 14 year old whistler ripping kid or the sport level crash-14-times-a-day racer has them for 6 months with no problems, then I'll be more impressed.

And I clearly see more than you'd think. I know there are improvements to the brakes. ANyone can see that. However, I also know that initial reviews are almost always done with rose coloured glasses on, and everything is always amazing when you're at press camps riding tuned and reporting on tailored parts. I've been there.

Face it. New saint stuff is expensive because they can charge it, and people will pay it. Its not wrong, but its dissapointing I guess? I suppose Shimano can't be blamed. They make excellent stuff, no arguing that. My fave drivetrain stuff for sure. But the problem is this furthers the trend of upward pricing, pushing competitors to raise theirs to match preceived quality and product competitiveness. Just wishful thinking that MTB would bypass that ****ty game.
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I think you missed the part where new formulas fresh after release were also stupid expensive.

Also if you see that there are improvements be it unproven why don't you understand a higher price? It really surprises me that someone who your knowledge assumes that the total cost for a brake is production cost.
Also since shimano has a long history of dropping prices not so long after release. The few eager people who buy it right of the bat just pay a bike nerd tax. Wait a bit and they will be quite affordable.
 
iRider

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,653
3,092
dropmachine.com said:
Face it. New saint stuff is expensive because they can charge it, and people will pay it. Its not wrong, but its dissapointing I guess? I suppose Shimano can't be blamed. They make excellent stuff, no arguing that. My fave drivetrain stuff for sure. But the problem is this furthers the trend of upward pricing, pushing competitors to raise theirs to match preceived quality and product competitiveness. Just wishful thinking that MTB would bypass that ****ty game.
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It is called marketing. ;) Shimano is sponsoring Gwin, Syndicate, Athertons and they win or are on the prodium. Hope is sponsoring whom? Ah, wait, CG is running Hope brakes and had a season ending crash because of a "failed brake". :shocked:

Disclaimer: I know it was said that he damaged the brake prior to failure, but a marketing disaster nevertheless.
 
D

Deano

Monkey
Feb 14, 2011
233
0
i gotta add, CRC already has the Zee parts on sale for a more then reasonable price, i mean the new rear derail. is less then the old saint, and its incl the clutch thing and all..

I saw the new saint prices, and they are on par with SRAM stuff, yet cheaper then Formulas still..

So why the long face over the relative high price ?.
 
IH8Rice

IH8Rice

I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!
Aug 2, 2008
24,524
494
Im over here now
iRider said:
Disclaimer: I know it was said that he damaged the brake prior to failure, but a marketing disaster nevertheless.
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Didnt he smash a tree prior to crashing? I don't think they are too worried about their image because of a fluke accident or worried about their brakes durability because of it...and I'm sure Cedirc isn't blaming them for anything
 
ZoRo

ZoRo

Turbo Monkey
Sep 28, 2004
1,224
11
MTL
New product... must pay... must try... better better for sure.... will make you Vouilloz worthy....
 
SylentK

SylentK

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2004
2,313
862
coloRADo
Just tried my new Saints on Sunday at Sol Vista. Wow, they are strong! I found myself braking too much in spots. But I was coming off relatively weak brakes. It will take a little bit of adjusting to the stregth. But that's not a bad thing. Makes me think XT or similar would suffice and give similar feel to what you may be running on the trail bike. Modulation is good. Set up is easy. Although I do recommend putting the disk inbetween the brake pads instead of relying on just squeezing the brakes, then tighting the caliper bolts. No sign of fade yet. No squealing or any noise for that matter. Maybe one of the reason I'm braking too much as I'm used to hearing the brakes working. Totally silent now. I'm running the XT discs (not saint discs with the cooling fan/fin, I don't think they're out yet). I"m liking the lever feel, especially with the partial holes on the lever, vs. no holes on my XT's. Oh and I'm running a 6" on rear, 8" up front on a DW-DHR w/ 888 evo. So far so good! Just need to adapt to the new power and rock it!
 
kidwoo

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Aug 25, 2003
42,146
13,340
Squirtin ketchup n' mustard on charred flesh
Well I got some xts months ago and they are hands down a big improvement. That's not 'hype', that's me riding my damn bike. They kick so much ass, I bought another pair for my trail bike. And they kick so much ass over my saints from last year, I went to buy some saints. They weren't available so I just bought some zee levers which aren't that expensive and bled them to my old saint calipers. And you know what? They're so much better than the last gen saints, you'd have to be a fvcking moron to not notice the improvements.

And who cares about rotors. Any rotor the right size from any other brand of brake will work.
 
Da Peach

Da Peach

Outwitted by a rodent
Jul 2, 2002
13,683
4,912
North Van
I will make the move to Shimano brakes one of these days. I'm too inept to get my elixirs bled on the first try. Ever. So annoying.
 
Da Peach

Da Peach

Outwitted by a rodent
Jul 2, 2002
13,683
4,912
North Van
kidwoo said:
Want me to really annoy you?


I can cut the hoses on new shimano brakes and not even bleed them when I put the hose back in.

They still work. Really well.




:D
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Yeah..XTs in my future... You run them on your DH rig too?... Interesting... I'm a light-ish guy. I'm sure I could get away with it if you can...
 
kidwoo

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Aug 25, 2003
42,146
13,340
Squirtin ketchup n' mustard on charred flesh
You ride a bunch of that sustained fall line skidder crap, canadians call 'trails?'. That's about the only thing I'd be concerned about because with all that friction comes all that heat....hence the heat sinks. They do heat up. The saints and zees give you a little more dispersion/absorption.

I've got xts on an sx trail, and my 5.spot trail bike. My dh bike has new zee levers with last year's saint calipers (I'm pretty convinced 100% of the new brakes performance is in the levers/master cylinders only). Just doing that alone improved them greatly. So no.....I don't have XTs on my dh bike, but I think you'd be fine other than a few isolated cases where they'd be likely to start cooking themselves.
 
syadasti

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
Upgraded from the stock 2010 Elixir CRs to 2012 XTs on my trail bike with 6-bolt ICE 180/160 rotors for $190 in April. Best brakes I've owned.
 
mtg

mtg

Green with Envy
Sep 21, 2009
1,862
1,604
Denver, CO
Da Peach said:
Yeah..XTs in my future... You run them on your DH rig too?... Interesting... I'm a light-ish guy. I'm sure I could get away with it if you can...
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I've been running the new M666 SLX brakes with RT86 rotors on my DH bike for a few weeks now, and they've been fantastic. A few other people have also ridden the bike and said the same thing- one of them is now ordering Shimano brakes for his DH bike to replace his X0's. Bleeding was easier than other brakes, and mineral oil is much nicer to work with than DOT fluid.

The thing I like best is that they feel consistent. Every time I pull the lever, it feels the same and produces consistent stopping power. How convenient.

My main question now is heat capacity for either heavier riders or long, brake-intensive descents. I suspect they would be fine, but haven't really put a ton of heat into them yet.

FWIW, I was originally looking at the XT's, but found out that the only functional difference between SLX and XT is the free stroke adjustment. And, apparently it doesn't make a substantial difference.

Woo: supposedly the Ice Tech rotors make a noticeable difference. I've heard of people running the RT86 rotor on other braking systems, and it improved the consistency.
 
kidwoo

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Aug 25, 2003
42,146
13,340
Squirtin ketchup n' mustard on charred flesh
mtg said:
Woo: supposedly the Ice Tech rotors make a noticeable difference. I've heard of people running the RT86 rotor on other braking systems, and it improved the consistency.
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Oh I believe they help if overheating is something you do to brakes. I don't. I don't ever have a problem with consistency. My brakes always feel the same and have since the last few iterations of good brakes over the last few years.

Then again it takes me pretty much two seasons to go through a set of brake pads. I don't really ever do any sustained braking to be honest. I don't live near Mt 7 either though :D
 
bullit398

bullit398

Chimp
Oct 21, 2007
69
1
Neptune, NJ
I've been running the xt with ice tech rotors all season on both my dh and trail bike and can say they handle sustained braking very well and are super consistent. I'm 210 and they have been flawless on dh that used to smoke my avids. I pulled the trigger on saints not because the xt weren't good enough, just because if the xt's are great the saints will be spectacular. That and I'm injured and bored.
 
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