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Is the Horst link dead?

- seb

Turbo Monkey
Apr 10, 2002
2,924
1
UK
So I love the way my 2009 Devinci Wilson rides. One of the main reasons I picked it was the theoretical benefits I'd read about Horst links, good pedalling and braking characteristics.

Question is, what current (2012MY) frames still run a Horst link? Off the top of my head I can't think of any!

Everything seems to be SPs (not convinced that these are good) or VPP-esque (feel a bit "dead" to me).
 

Dogboy

Turbo Monkey
Apr 12, 2004
3,208
581
Durham, NC
Specialized in the US, lots of other companies elsewhere. Ghost, Canyon, Cube, Nicolai (lots of German bikes, eh?) all come to mind. Never rode a Horst bike that was a particularly good pedaler though.
 

- seb

Turbo Monkey
Apr 10, 2002
2,924
1
UK
Hmm, somehow I forgot that specialized was still Horst, I had it in my head that they'd dropped it a few years ago :)

Cheers for the other brands, keep them coming. Norco's tempting...
 

Willy Vanilly

Monkey
Jul 27, 2003
194
0
San Jose
End your search now.... Ellsworth Dare!:shocked:

... i think i remember my Truth having an FSR sticker on there (before I got wise to the marketing hype, lack of standover and propensity for breaking)... or did they circumvent it by using a bunch of other patented letters?
 

Tetreault

Monkey
Nov 23, 2005
877
0
SoMeWhErE NoWhErE
Everything seems to be SPs (not convinced that these are good) or VPP-esque (feel a bit "dead" to me).
Sp as in single pivot or split pivot?

A new wilson will ride even better than your current one, split pivot and fsr mostly try to achieve the same bennefits and do generally ride similar, with slight differences.

I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum from you though, i would rather have a 4-bar set up or a basic single pivot over fsr. the pedalling characteristics and firmness of 4-bar set ups is what i love about them, and the linear feel and predictability of single pivots make them an absolute blast to ride. I find horst to feel bobby while pedalling and spongy on pretty well everything thus my hate for specialized on this forum, not to mention their ridiculous marketing and nazi like control over retailers.

If you like horst but dont seem to like whats out there, i'd recommend widening your search to include split-pivot bikes.
 

- seb

Turbo Monkey
Apr 10, 2002
2,924
1
UK
My Devinci doesn't feel bobby at all to me, feels quicker than whenever I try friend's DH bikes.

SPs = single pivots, sorry.

Certainly after Horst split pivot is my next choice I think. Isn't that just sessions and devincis at the moment though?
 

Beef Supreme

Turbo Monkey
Oct 29, 2010
1,434
73
Hiding from the stupid
Sp as in single pivot or split pivot?

A new wilson will ride even better than your current one, split pivot and fsr mostly try to achieve the same bennefits and do generally ride similar, with slight differences.

I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum from you though, i would rather have a 4-bar set up or a basic single pivot over fsr. the pedalling characteristics and firmness of 4-bar set ups is what i love about them, and the linear feel and predictability of single pivots make them an absolute blast to ride. I find horst to feel bobby while pedalling and spongy on pretty well everything thus my hate for specialized on this forum, not to mention their ridiculous marketing and nazi like control over retailers.

If you like horst but dont seem to like whats out there, i'd recommend widening your search to include split-pivot bikes.
FSR/horst is a 4-bar system. Additionally, pedaling performance will vary greatly depending upon where you place the pivot. A pivot placed above the BB will bob less than one place behind it.

I'm not a Specialized fan either but the system is as good as anything out there.
 

- seb

Turbo Monkey
Apr 10, 2002
2,924
1
UK
Additionally, pedaling performance will vary greatly depending upon where you place the pivot. A pivot placed above the BB will bob less than one place behind it.
Interesting. Can you expand on that or give me a link where I can read/learn more.
 

Tetreault

Monkey
Nov 23, 2005
877
0
SoMeWhErE NoWhErE
FSR/horst is a 4-bar system. Additionally, pedaling performance will vary greatly depending upon where you place the pivot. A pivot placed above the BB will bob less than one place behind it.

I'm not a Specialized fan either but the system is as good as anything out there.
my mix up, i meant dual link, typing faster than my brain was thinking there.

Interesting. Can you expand on that or give me a link where I can read/learn more.
Other can correct me if im wrong, but generally with a higher pivot, when you pedal the chain force actually pulls the chainstay or link forward, putting more forward constraint on the pivot holding it in place and reducing bob, when the pivot it lower or behind the bb or chainline, these chain forces do not create as much tension on the pivots and thus they will "bob"
 

Beef Supreme

Turbo Monkey
Oct 29, 2010
1,434
73
Hiding from the stupid
Interesting. Can you expand on that or give me a link where I can read/learn more.
My explanation would be sorely lacking. I don't have a link either but it is a subject that has been discussed since the development of horst link. There is a reasonable explanation if you watch any of the videos on the development of the Norco Range or Aurum but that is all I can think of off the top of my head.

I can give you some real world examples. My 8" Aurum pedals better than my 6" Uzzi SLX that now hangs on a hook. A Delirium pedals better as well. A 2012 Enduro bobs much less than a 2003 Enduro.
 

- seb

Turbo Monkey
Apr 10, 2002
2,924
1
UK
OK, I know the general idea when it comes to single pivot placement, but I figured with a horst link it wouldn't be so straightforward.
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
OK, I know the general idea when it comes to single pivot placement, but I figured with a horst link it wouldn't be so straightforward.
For all intents and purposes, split pivot/ABP and Horst links can be viewed as pretty much able to achieve the same thing: single pivot (constant radius) axle path, and separately variable braking/leverage rate characteristics. The centre of curvature (effective pivot point for the axle) of almost all Horst link bikes is within a few mm of the main pivot point - the amount of rotation of the seatstay relative to the chainstay is tiny, and because the Horst pivot is so close to the rear axle, the variation of the axle path from circular is also miniscule. I don't believe it's required by the patent, but all the FSR bikes on the market at the moment have the main pivot in roughly the same place, which is very low and just behind the BB - great for minimising chain growth but not great for pedalling. The improvement in pedalling performance over the years has been largely due to the improved platform thresholds found in current shocks (Propedal for example), not because the FSR linkages are doing anything they didn't do previously.

Where these systems lose out is in pedalling performance - with any kind of single pivot, there is a tradeoff between pedalling efficiency and pedal feedback/chain growth, because when the pivot is moved high enough for optimised anti-squat levels, there is simply no way of getting around the fact that chain extension/pedal feedback are increased quite a bit. There are systems on the market that manage these characteristics better, but in my opinion the single most important part of any DH bike's suspension is the leverage rate, and I would highly recommend looking at that above all else. It is my personal belief that the main reasons FSR became so popular are that it doesn't have any fatal flaws that really annoy anyone hugely, and that the early FSR bikes were substantially more progressive (and thus "plush" feeling) compared to most other bikes on the market (Intense M1 is a good example - that thing was a sofa even 12 years ago when everything else felt like crap, because you could run it much softer than most bikes due to the progressive leverage rate). Some of the most popular FSR bikes currently on the market are extremely linear, and basically ride like a low-pivot singlepivot with a floating brake, which I feel is less than ideal.

In summary - I'd take a closer look at the leverage rates of bikes you've liked and disliked in the past, then find a few bikes currently on the market that match what you do like, with the geometry/weight/quality etc that you want. Based on what you've said so far, I'd actually recommend trying a new Wilson.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,031
5,921
borcester rhymes
Those split pivot/ABP are some of the best designs out there, IMO. Active braking, optimized squat values (unless you need a 22t or 42t chainring), and incredible packaging. The session and devinci are both fantastic bikes, at least on paper.

The best way to theorize the effect of pivot height is simply that a pivot roughly in line with the chainring will have no effect on pedaling. Above that chainline, and you'll get torque lockout/anti squat/bob, etc. Below that line and you'll get pro-squat and other awful things. IMO, no bike should have a pivot below the chainring unless it's a BB concentric single pivot designed for coasting down BMXTB trails.

There was an article recently on PB about the new Scott, where they said that test riders found the applied physics of a higher pivot to not matter much on the trail, and the bump eating performance outweighed the proverbial "pedal lockout" that advertisers want you to fear.

Horst link isn't dead, but specialized has outcompeted themselves into a corner.
 

Tetreault

Monkey
Nov 23, 2005
877
0
SoMeWhErE NoWhErE
The FSR stuff is always pretty funny. It's another way of uncoupling the brake from the swingarm, but specialized puts no concern into their main pivot, making a bike that brakes well but doesn't pedal as well as a single pivot.
Mr.Which posted this in the marketing thread but he managed to simply state better than i could, as to why fsr is pretty ****e in aspects that i find important