After he got bucked on his Revolt, slipped the pedals and lost a potential World Champs gold.....sorry, I mean after he realized the benefits of being clipped in.
2012 World Cup #7 - Hafjell
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Maybe he wears both? Clip on the right, and flat on the left?
Maybe we could e-speculate even more. Does anybody know what shoes I'm wearing right now?
Regardless, I was glad to see him win. I like his riding style.
Maybe we could e-speculate even more. Does anybody know what shoes I'm wearing right now?
Regardless, I was glad to see him win. I like his riding style.
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The difference between what you just made up and what Monarch said is that in his scenario someone would have measured the difference with a stopwatch. If someone takes the time to make a tangible, numerically quantifiable comparison and it gets written off as 'marketing' then there's really just no hope left for us.Sure.Probably Specialized also claims he got 10 secs faster on the Demo after he switched to that. It is called marketing!
Having ridden an SGS and a Sunday as well as the other alternatives back in that time period, and considering that DW's creation was actually somewhat revolutionary in its acceleration and geometry characteristics, I don't think a few seconds of difference is really that hard to believe.
No one actually said that. No one said frame design 'alone'.
I am nominating you for BDIU. Someone call the intergalactic committee.
I got him.
He was already on clips in "Seasons". But switched back and forth since then.
The difference between what I made up and what DW said is not as big as you like to believe.
You know as little as I do on how DW got that data. One run, 100 runs, variety of courses, same shocks/forks etc.? And it comes from a guy closely associated with both designs. Of course a new design will be faster, why should he have switched to it if not? Independent verification of his claims are needed. Same as with any other info provided by the companies selling a product. Or do you believe claimed weights?
Yes DW is involved but as with most claimed weights there is some truth to what's stated. Even if he bigged up what happened or it was on 1 course only (from what I remember it was) bluntly lying and misleading people won't get you far and in the end if anyone finds out it becomes bad PR. Unless you see many Ellsworth bikes around
Stevie has been full time clips during race season for a long time. Flats when he is playing at home. When it's go time, it's all clips all the time.
What data do you have to back that up? You seem to be passing off your personal opinion as fact here.
I'm not claiming the time difference is real or exact - indeed I know as little as you - but like I said, having ridden both of those bikes, I find it reasonable to believe that there would have been a difference in times. Furthermore like norbar pointed out, most bikes were not as advanced in that era, thus more significant gains were easily made compared to today (8 years later).
This site has been awash lately with a few people claiming a whole myriad of reasonable statements to be part of some marketing conspiracy - it might be time to take those tinfoil hats off.
Hey, that's between you and Dave! TMI.The difference between what I made up and what DW said is not as big as you like to believe.
Also, Udi hit the nail on the head.
So Worlds is not go time? Looks like flats to me:
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/steve-smith-interview-2010.html
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We are talking about different things here. One is if a statement of a marketing guy can be trusted and the other is if a Sunday is faster than a SGS.
First thing: For me it is a difference if some reputable member on here gives a fair review of different components he has tested (like you often do) or if someone associated with a brand (like DW) claims things without revealing the experimental setup. And it puzzles me that people are more likely to believe things DW says than any other marketing guy. Wasn't John P trying to make a connection between the rail suspension and speed trap times from the South African WC and got sh!t for that? Or what about that guy with the Tollwut?
Second: I am not arguing that the Sunday is a way better bike than the SGS. It might well be 8 secs faster on any course. But if you make the claim, and especially as a person associated with a company, then please show me the experimental setup, the results and let me draw my own conclusions. And not throw a number out and never back it up.
What Fraser meant was ever since the start of 2011, before that it was both, and before that it was clips. Where's Kidwoo to tell us how important this is?
I did. And I said 2010 Worlds! If you would have bothered to take a look at the link:
First: I think you miss the difference. John P. is still liked, people just laughed because yeti guys spoke about it over and over again and speedtrap is not final time so it's not as relevant. Still if it wasn't as overused probably no one would care. Also it's not like people don't think plowy bikes are faster over the rough, they just found the sentence funny. Tollwut guy got **** because what he was posting was just BS. Marketing or not (He was a fan not the owner). I think you missed the point here being part of the "we are not sheep" movement. People tend to trust marketing statements if they seem reasonable. They tend to laugh if they are funny and if they are bs they will call that bs. It's not that DW is hold on a pedestal, he just seems to be pretty reasonable most of the time.
Second: Please write DW about that. You need that info, most of us don't really care anymore.
Oh, sorry about that. I just thought we were talking about this year.
And you didn't say 2010 Worlds. But it's visible in the link though.
But we should take our bikes and ride now.
Battling about the riding style of a guy we know only from vids and photos?!
Really dudes, take your bikes and go out for a ride!
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Ok then. This proves that a sunday is faster than a demo. So based on the outcome of the last seasons it would be:
ABP>VPP>I-drive>DW-Link>FSR
right?
So ABP is god Tier then. **** I need to buy a Trek...
ABP>VPP>I-drive>DW-Link>FSR
right?
So ABP is god Tier then. **** I need to buy a Trek...
I have seen multiple people first hand destroy the rest of the field on prototype Sundays back in 2004. It's not marketing but a legit design. George Ryan destroyed the pro class at platty 2 months in a row riding a Sunday in the fall of 2004. He usually was lucky to make top 3 prior to the Sunday. Bryn Atkinson did the same when he rode there on his Sunday. Dante and Ska Todd also put up better than normal results when they were testing the bike. That is enough proof for me. But you can keep going full retard and conspiracy theory on frame design ect.The difference between what I made up and what DW said is not as big as you like to believe.
Independent verification of his claims are needed. Same as with any other info provided by the companies selling a product. Or do you believe claimed weights?
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hahahahaha!
Nascar fan mentality!
Nascar fan mentality!
totally wrong... according to "win on sunday sell on monday" nascar etiquette we all have to storm devinci dealers this week.
Ha, laugh if you want to, but that $hit works on people in this sport too.
The Dude wins world cup wearing pajamas.
Next season, everyone is wearing pajamas.
The Dude wins world cup riding a Sunday.
Next year, everyone is riding a Sunday.
The Dude wins world cup running inferior flat pedals,
Next year, everyone switches to flat pedals.
And that is why Specialized will keep The Dude for next year.
Because even when The Dude is not winning races, you are watching The Dude race world cups.
You don't get up and piss when The Dude is up next, nope, you stay the F*** seated,
hold your piss, and prepare to be astonished.
Because normally, The Dude abides.
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never claimed it does not work, the fact that people are still paying rather high rates for used sundays speaks for itself... and the dude made people think the demo is a race worthy bike way before that actually was the case 
More like he made people realise demo was a race worthy bike for a while but without him people didn't belive spec.never claimed it does not work, the fact that people are still paying rather high rates for used sundays speaks for itself... and the dude made people think the demo is a race worthy bike way before that actually was the case
Also used sunday prices have little to do with Sam anymore. Initial sales are marketing, later sales is brand and word of mouth. Sunday brand is not super strong, nor is Sam right now. They cost more than other frames from that period because the consensus is that they ride better. It works the same in almost any market. That is also why companies realease new models very often - you can market a new product. An old one - not really unless you are someone like nicolai or other brand with a strong following.
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See, now you provide data that makes this claim more believable.
And no, I never questioned that the Sunday is a legit design. Many people not associated with the company have shown this by now. I just think that it is funny that a lot of people (and companies) don't know what a scientific experiment looks like and believe anecdotal evidence is enough to support claims of superior performance of a product.
You're building a straw man here though, can't you see that? DW never even posted in this thread, someone just shared a completely reasonable fact / claim from EIGHT years ago, and you called it out as marketing BS. Like norbar pointed out, you're the only one who seems to care - maybe ask the man himself before calling him out?
As for why people are more likely to believe him - it's because what he says has been accurately backed up from a physics standpoint in virtually every case I've seen (often verified by multiple unaffiliated third parties if you read deeper technical discussions on here). That's not to say you should stop questioning things - but at least make an effort to look for the source of something you are dubious about before claiming it as BS.
Here's an unrelated picture of a 2004 proto with a bunch of fake data acquisition tools and fake wires attached for marketing purposes, so this thread doesn't get boring:
Gwin runs toeclips.
When did he switch over from powergrips?
He switched back and forth depending on the track until his troubles at 2012 Worlds, at which point he decided the old school toeclips had a 5% higher "mojo quotient."
When one got caught in his kickstand.
You never seen the DW boot before? Its so the bike can kick ass down the trail.
Before the Sam Hill / Jacy influenced Demo, it was a TERRIBLE race bike. Some of the worst geometry going in fact.
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Its not a boot, but a linear potentiometer. It measures distance vs time. Ala velocity and acceleration.
Oh, I don't know about terrible... I'm still quite liking my 2008 Demo 8. Maybe the first models, but they were definitely refining them right from the beginning...
It was a bit outdated in 09 but when that iteration was introduced it wasn't any worse than the competition. 65 ha, 14.7'' bb and the rest was similar to the 2010. It seems bad now but in 07 it wasn't really horrible.