same rider on a difrent bike? faster?

In Sam's case it has maybe more to do with 2 years of injuries.
First year on the Demo was his second overall title, do you remember?

And to come back and pull of fifth in the overall standings isn't that shady, right?

Otherwise I definitely think that some frames are better for certain riders than others. Combined with an ideal setup for the bike (suspension, brakes, tires etc.) times would definitely change.

Honestly, I think everyone else just got better at riding, along with Sam having a few setbacks. I've wondered the same thing as you though, and would love to see how he performed on a different bike.

You should ask tabletop84 though, he's an expert on this topic.

You should ask tabletop84 though, he's an expert on this topic

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Lol.
Sam should ride a YT tues.

If DW would work his magic Sam would smoke Gwin for sure.

I understand training and team budget/resources probably had a lot to do with it, but what about when Aaron Gwin went from Yeti to Trek? His last year on Yeti, I think he made the podium once and his first year on Trek he was pretty dominate. And I'm not exactly a Trek fan.

another thread on this topic?

maybe's not the frame: more than likely a combo of how fast his mind allows him to go after taking some pretty darn big stacks in the past 2 years. Coming back to 5th overall is nothing to sneeze at. Just has to find his mojo in his head.

and then there's the question of: does the frame around his neck actually make him slower? Remember how Gwin fumbled that question when asked why he stopped riding with it?

and seems Gee's given up on riding with the neck frame too..

ahem.. just tossing 2c into the tinfoil hat..

sethimus said:

another thread on this topic?

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Another vortex opens

rav400 said:

I understand training and team budget/resources probably had a lot to do with it, but what about when Aaron Gwin went from Yeti to Trek? His last year on Yeti, I think he made the podium once and his first year on Trek he was pretty dominate. And I'm not exactly a Trek fan.

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Call me crazy, but he just got a bit better at racing as he had seemed to do every year previous. All this talk about bikes making a difference, yet look at the guys consistently on top for the past several years. They've switched bikes, designs, tires, and suspension time and again and the results have stayed predictably the same.

It's be one thing to be on a sh*t bike with sh*t components, but those are really really hard to find in 2012. Most box-stock bikes from the top manufacturers could be ridden to the top of the podium after a quick trip through the suspension department. I think some of you like to split hairs for the sake of it.

rav400 said:

I understand training and team budget/resources probably had a lot to do with it, but what about when Aaron Gwin went from Yeti to Trek? His last year on Yeti, I think he made the podium once and his first year on Trek he was pretty dominate. And I'm not exactly a Trek fan.

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ABP dude, because it's stolen from teh DW eagle.

General Lee said:

I think some of you like to split hairs for the sake of it.

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Isn't that what a discussion forum is for? Split hairs, aren't those the split second differences that each rider is winning and or placing higher than the next guy by?

I think we all know certain frames just feel better under us, and make us feel faster/slower. I am CERTAIN that comes into play for the pros, compared to us they are just flat out fast, but compared to each other any advantage they can get helps.

Do I think that frame design changes who wins the world cup? No, do I think it changes the way some of the guys place from track to track? possibly.

Mo(n)arch said:

In Sam's case it has maybe more to do with 2 years of injuries.
First year on the Demo was his second overall title, do you remember?

And to come back and pull of fifth in the overall standings isn't that shady, right?

Otherwise I definitely think that some frames are better for certain riders than others. Combined with an ideal setup for the bike (suspension, brakes, tires etc.) times would definitely change.

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I remember Matti complaining about the Evil and saying he is happy to be back on the m9. Though I'm not sure if getting bucked really slows you down

As for Gwin - TWR offers him a much higher lever of support not to mention I thought it was well known that he had killer off season training before he started getting results.

I think changing bikes doesn't really help a rider but then you look at Gwin and it has a minimal affect on him.
I do think that changing bike has a greater effect at the top end for flat pedal riders. From a psychological point of view, "feel" of the bike is way more important when riding with flats. With clips the bike is just strapped to you so I don't feel its as important once it works really well. We are talking crazy world cup speeds here where riders feet are actually bouncing off the pedals.

I also think the physical side has changed.More riders are actually training with weights and tuning their anerobic power. This is true especially in Gwins case. In the off season he works pretty hard. I think some other riders maybe take it a bit easier and gain a little weight.
I think this season Hill has got his injuries behind him and he can work on his fitness in the offseason.

Hill is known for not doing a lot of practice runs. eg sometimes just a few. It saves his body from fatigue, but its a disadvantage as he cannot fully know the track as well as the guy who put 9 runs in if he only did 3 himself. Physical conditioning here would help Hill be stronger and get in more practice rather than holding back.
I said it here before but it would be interesting to see the guy in clips and more strength power in his upper torso. I dont think he will ever try clips but I think upper body strength would really help him this those few etra seconds.
I guess now for riders to ride at their full potential small little changes make a big difference.
I think with a guy like Sam, who has in my opinion the most natural fast riding style he just has to get a few things right and he will be on the top steps again.

I highly doubt clips vs flats comes into play with regards to the subtle nuances a pro prefers. All these guys are fighting for tenths, and from what I’ve learned most if not all are sticklers when it comes to bike set up. Just because a bike is ‘strapped’ on (which it is not) doesn’t mean every little detail isn’t as important. As someone who isn’t pro but switches from flats to clips, I’ll tell you set up is every bit as important to an ‘expert’ level racer, so you better believe it matters to a pro.

You are definately right with regards to training. I've always believed DH racing has similarites to fighting with regards to the training required to do well. Both are short durrations (4-5 minutes non stop, a few times over), require total body cordination and strength. I think the pros get this, and when you see the way they are starting to train it validates this belief. These guys are becoming elite level athletes.

These guys are becoming elite level athletes

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Look at Gee. That dude is basically a 1,90m long muscle. Absolut fit. And it shows. Terrible wrecks (I still feel sorry for that part of track at MSA where he landed head first) and never off the podium through a season isn't something everyone can do.

I think with a guy like Sam, who has in my opinion the most natural fast riding style he just has to get a few things right and he will be on the top steps again.

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I hope that. Watched Earthed 5 a few days ago. The riding of that dude was unbelievable in the Quebec section and on the dirt track.
Even for todays levels completely over the top.

Judging how fast a rider is or was based solely on video material shouldn't be too accurate. Coulnd't it be that Sam is and feels where he was a few years ago and the fact that everyone stepped up their game because of Gwin doesn't let him shine through and startles him.

How loose or agressive someone looks on track doesn't necessarily tell how fast they really are. Best example would be Minaar.

Oh man, the off-season speculations and pointless banter has begun already!

What is an off season? Especially for those who dont live near lifts anyway?

I dont understand the concept of this 'off season'


My speculation: Bikes matter, rider matters more, everyone's an expert, I am Banzai.

atrokz said:

You are definately right with regards to training. I've always believed DH racing has similarites to fighting with regards to the training required to do well. Both are short durrations (4-5 minutes non stop, a few times over), require total body cordination and strength. I think the pros get this, and when you see the way they are starting to train it validates this belief. These guys are becoming elite level athletes.

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yeah I think the way to train now is like an MMA athlete! I have been thinking it for a long time. Being able to ride for 2 hours is good for practice maybe the day before. But explosive is where its at...

I still think on the rocky wild track that clips have an advantage controlling the back of the bike and stoping the feet popping off at super fast speeds.
I dont wear clips anymore, I dont like crashing with them, but there you go!

tabletop84 said:

Judging how fast a rider is or was based solely on video material shouldn't be too accurate. Coulnd't it be that Sam is and feels where he was a few years ago and the fact that everyone stepped up their game because of Gwin doesn't let him shine through and startles him.

How loose or agressive someone looks on track doesn't necessarily tell how fast they really are. Best example would be Minaar.

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Look at old freecaster vids or whatever you can find from back then. Sam didn't look more agressive. He looked way way faster than other riders. He looked faster than he looks now.

Sam Hill needs 650b designed by dee Dubz

interesting comments from Steve Smith about going back to clips at 5.24 secs http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Video-Steve-Smith-Blow-by-Blow-Account-of-His-First-World-Cup-Vi.html

motomike said:

Oh man, the off-season speculations and pointless banter has begun already!

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I don't know about you, but I'm pumped.

Injury is the big thing with Hill. Knees are huge and take a long, long time to come back from. My ACL probably put me almost two years back in terms of strength, stability and top fitness. I reinjured it earlier this year and I can barely pedal even now, almost 3 months later.

That guy is crazy fast and I'm giving him one more season to come back on form. We're talking a sport where a 1/10th of a second is the margin and guys like him and Brendog are working with 80-90% of the strength they had before injury.

Take into consideration that at 100% healthy, Hill still only won by tiny margins most times. Finishing top 5 is pretty impressive to me. Count to two for me real quick. That's the time difference between 2nd and 10th alot of times.

bizutch said:

Count to two for me real quick. That's the time difference between 2nd and 10th alot of times.

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From 2012 World Championship:

1. Minaar, Greg (RSA), 3:21.790
2. Atherthon, Gee (GBR), 3:22.371
3. Smith, Steve (CAN), 3:23.004
4. Hannah, Michael (AUS), 3:23.930
5. Hill, Samuel (AUS), 3:25.196
6. Spagnolo, Damien (FRA), 3:25.649
7. Payet, Florent (FRA), 3:26.017
8. Macdonald, Brook (NZL), 3:26.651
9. Pekoll, Markus (AUT), 3:27.564
10. Gutierrez Villegas, Marcelo (COL), 3:27.854

A delta over five seconds on a 3.5 minute lap is HUGE.

In auto racing, lap deltas amongst competitive racers will rarely be over one second.

The fact that Minaar and Gwin ride very very differently designed bikes, yet both still manage to do quite well in most races, suggests to me that the bike doesn't have a whole lot to do with the result.

If, for example, all racers on 8.5" bikes were to consistently destroy all racers on 10" bikes - or vice versa - then I may start to suspect that bike frame has much influence on result.

Also, has Atherton's performance changed much after his switch from Commençal to GT?

Man that V10 from marcelo doesn't have the carbon rear triangle. That explains everything.

ManChild said:

Hill is known for not doing a lot of practice runs. eg sometimes just a few. It saves his body from fatigue, but its a disadvantage as he cannot fully know the track as well as the guy who put 9 runs in if he only did 3 himself. Physical conditioning here would help Hill be stronger and get in more practice rather than holding back.

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This is where you'd be wrong. Sam has an innate ability to learn the track simply from walking it. The practice runs are simply to decide what line is fastest. I am not even kidding, he can memorize a track, top to bottom, multiple lines, in one walk down it. It's astounding and is a massive, massive advantage to him.

Transcend said:

This is where you'd be wrong. Sam has an innate ability to learn the track simply from walking it. The practice runs are simply to decide what line is fastest. I am not even kidding, he can memorize a track, top to bottom, multiple lines, in one walk down it. It's astounding and is a massive, massive advantage to him.

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I think people overestimate number of runs on a track that get you full speed. I was doing up to 10 runs/day before races and going down from that number helped my times and I have horrible track memory.

Just sayin...if Sam still had the fire he has here...

motomike said:

Oh man, the off-season speculations and pointless banter has begun already!

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This place would be even more boring without the pointless banter, i'm hoping for more speculation and e-enginerding because some of this **** is priceless AND people repost the sick vids from the past.

NwRider said:

Just sayin...if Sam still had the fire he has here...

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Its true really, if everything is right the rider has to to really really want it to be on the top steps. Steve Smith is an example you can really see it burn in his eyes.

Tomasz said:

The fact that Minaar and Gwin ride very very differently designed bikes, yet both still manage to do quite well in most races, suggests to me that the bike doesn't have a whole lot to do with the result.

If, for example, all racers on 8.5" bikes were to consistently destroy all racers on 10" bikes - or vice versa - then I may start to suspect that bike frame has much influence on result.

Also, has Atherton's performance changed much after his switch from Commençal to GT?

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I totally agree. I have a Session 88 and just rode a friend's v10c... both with fox 40s. They feel different but the bike really has nothing to do with who gets down the mountain faster assuming both are in good working order.

Sam Hill is human and can't always win everything. He helped inspire people to go faster and then he got injured. Others stepped up their game while he took steps back. And despite all that he's still up there, just less dominant.

Sure bikes matter, to an extent, but damn, some of you need to stop looking for excuses.

Yeah, like getting destroyed from this portugese kid on a rotten supermarket-bike. I predict the glory will make a difference in this case though...

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Ride-Giant-Ride-Whistler-Video-Contest-Winner-2012.html

btw. talking about numbers from that test a mag did with Johannes Fischbach:



http://www.freeride-magazine.com/uploads/media/bigbikes-downhiller-0212.pdf

all bikes had the same tires mounted and had the stock springs installed. He did one run dialling the fork and shock but only using external adjusters and then the timed run.

Considering that:

a) he is used to the geo, suspension setup and ergonomic setup of his race bike

b) is biased and maybe was extra commited on his sponsors bike

c) had to deal with unfamiliar (too soft) springs, suspension setups and ergonomics on the other bikes

the 4 second range that the bikes are in would be significantly smaller without them/ an unbiased rider or even an unbiased rider who has no experience with the bikes whatsoever. If you would even take identical components and balance out ergonomical differences it would get even smaller.

So we are talking about a 1 second gap at most between the 5 bikes at the top of the pack. Considering this gap is also influenced by inconsistencies the influence of the kinematik frame desing alone on the speed of state-of-the-art dh-bikes is incredibly small.