Pivot Mach 5.7c in comparison to Mojo and TRc

6 months ago I bought a Santa Cruz Blur TRc. I've never been a fan of VPP but after riding a friends tall boy I figured I'd give the VPP2 a try via the TRc.



I hate it. Geometry is spot on but the suspension is way too "wallowey" in the mid stroke. I try manualling and pumping rollers and blow right through. I tried different volume air sleeves, a new tune and then an RC4. It still sucks. I'm over $7k into this bike now and I hate it. I'm moving on.

I have the opportunity to get a smoking deal on a Pivot Mach 5.7c through my LBS. I love my Sunday and 6point enough that I can't bring myself to sell them. I have had great experience with the Ibis Mojo as well. It seems DW makes suspension that works for me.

My issue is that I'm ordering this bike blind and hoping to get a comparison between the Mach 5.7 DW Link suspension and the Vpp2. If anyone has experience with the Mach 5.7 and the Mojo that would be helpful as well.


Spam: if anyone wants a TRc I'm dumping this thing.
TRC for sale info here

The Orange Five is super high on my list but really my only options are a Norco, Diamondback or Pivot. It's a long round about story, but those are my options. I dislike FSR and I already have a Diamondback Mission 4x/Dreamliner. I have no problem running a Mission for my trailbike but that will be far too similar to my 6point and the Sortie is too close to the Dreamliner.
I have to have my main bike be one from my LBS so my choices are limited.

So back to Pivot... How are you guys liking them.

Da Peach said:

You don't mention size in your ad...

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It's a Large.
3rd sentence of the ad.

Routier07 said:

Have you had the chance to take a new Sight or Range 650b for a spin?? One of the main ++ of A.R.T is the anti-squat and the bikes ability to pedal. I know quite a few guys that are switching over from Stumpjumpers and Enduros over to Sight 650s and Range 650s next season just for the simple fact is pedals moar better under load than their older bikes. The only similarity between FSR and ART is the fact that the pivot is below the front axle, if you haven't had the chance to ride em' I really recommend you trying! The enginerdz over at Norco know whats up.

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For a personal bike I'm skipping them for 2 reasons. First of all I don't want a 650b bike as my primary steed. I like them, they are fun, but my library of tires is not compatible and wheel/rim combos are all 26" this year via a grassroots sponsorship.
Second, the shop I'm helping at/working everything through is using the Sight and Range as Demo's and I'll have access to them when needed, except on trips and when otherwise reserved.

For taking a chance with me and helping me out, I want to run a bike they sell. My trail bike is really the only bike up for replacing right now so I'm starting there.

DW, you've got first hand in the differences ride quality/characteristic wise between my current '08 6point, the '11 Ibis Mojo, and the Pivot Mach 5.7. Would you mind sharing your wealth of knowledge?

epic said:

I've demoed the 5.7C and the Mojo HD. I loved the HD, the 5.7c was everything I like about that bike and more. Do you r homework on size though, I ride larges on everything, and the med. Pivot did not feel too small. At 6', I'm not sure which size I'd get.

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Sounds good. I typically fall right between a medium and a large. I'm 5'11" with a 35" inseam. I have a short upper body so I usually buy a medium with a 23" top tube and run a 70mm stem. With the Blur I went with a 24" tt and a 50mm stem so that I could keep the fork at 130 to retain a steeper headangle for climbing but benefit from the stability of a longer wheelbase.

The 23.2 of the 5.7 should be damn near perfect.

ZHendo said:

I would try to get some more suspension tuning help on the bike before you bail on it. I was having the same issue with my Nomad Carbon before I threw on a Push link and an RC4. My main complaint with the bike was exactly what you're describing - it just kinda bounced around in the midstroke and was easily overwhelmed by big hits. Talk to Darren over at Push, he should be able to help you. My bike has been an absolute blast since I threw on the new linkage, and it really filled out the midstroke support. If you're that tired of the bike its totally reasonable to want to get rid of it, but I would at least give Push a quick phone call because Darren knows the VPP traits unbelievably well.

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Ready for a long story? Here we go... I've been a certified bike mechanic for 10 years and have always worked in shops. The lest shop I was working in I did the entire workload, no one ever showed up to help. It was a one man show all the time. The owners quite paying me. I knew I was about to quit and go back to welding so I ordered a Blur TRC. Well a particular rep at SC does not answer phone calls and the inside folks at SC always say to leave him an email. After 4 emails we finally get my bike ordered. 3 weeks pass and we order another TRc. The customers bike has arrived and mine hasn't. Finally I get an email after 6 weeks and a lot of phone calls and he recognizes I should have my bike.
Well, the bike shows up from UPS as a COD package after I had already put the bike on my debit card. I have to run to the bank and pull money from my account to get my bike. I left for a 24hour race the morning after the bike arrived, but because SC double charged me, my account was down almost $12000. I'm 25 years old working in a bike shop that hasn't paid me in months; there's not a whole lot left in my account after that...

My experience with Santa Cruz left a sour taste in my mouth.

Now, as a Santa Cruz owner yourself you recognize the inherent flaws of the design and had to buy a separate link and a new rear shock to sort them out.
I've gone through 2 different air sleeves with numerous different volumes and I wasn't happy. I went to a new rear shock and still don't like it.

Quite frankly I don't want to support Santa Cruz by continuing to ride a bike I dislike. The shop I'm helping out at doesn't sell Santa Cruz and I want to ride what they sell.
The Blur TRc is done and I'm over it.
I'll post it on Ebay tomorrow.

rosenamedpoop said:

Just a thought... what if you're picky and don't like the next frame either?

Dude, talk to the Push guys. Phone calls are free.

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Then I'll still be a bit unhappy with my bike but... I'll be riding a bike that the shop sells. The shop is helping me out, so I will do everything I can to do the same. It's a selling tool to have someone on hand that rides what they are selling, even if they aren't entirely happy. If a customer asks "what do you ride" I will not lie to them, there are plenty of shops out there that lie or make false statements to customers, I'm not one of them. I will tell them exactly what they ask. The question "what do you ride" comes up in 75% of the conversations in a bike shop, if and when I say Santa Cruz, they wonder why I'm talking to them about a Pivot/DB/Norco.

yuroshek said:

I absolutely love my 5.7, although its not the carbon model... Ive been racing the Oregon Enduro series on my 5.7 and couldnt be happier. The bike pedals amazing, shreds single track, corners like a cheetah... It basically feels like a 5" DH bike but with the ability to pedal up mountains. I strongly recommend a Pivot since you love the DW linked bikes.

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You don't happen to still be in the PNW area with your bike do you? I'll buy you a couple beers if you want to meet up for a ride.

iRider said:

Cool story bro. But some things don't add up.

You have become a certified bike mechanic with 15? Yes, there's no age limit to go to UBI and with a waiver you can start working up to 20 hours under the age of 16
You spend $7K on THAT bike with a shop hookup? I posted the RETAIL value of the bike because I respect the minimal margins shops make on high end bikes. Yes I got an EP price but I'm not going to spread that price on the internet
You continued working in a shop that doesn't pay you?Yeah. I worked their a total of 9 months. It didn't take long for me to decide to step out. I'm relatively shy and hate confrontation so it took a while to muster up the courage to put in my 2 weeks
You payed twice for the bike and your account was down $12000??? ($7000 + $7000 = $12000????? ) $7k is with the Gamut guide, Saint ring, Reverb, RC4 and Ti spring. Not the $5795 of the complete. $5795+$5795 is close enough for you to figure it out...
You start this thread by saying you don't like the midstroke feel of the suspension but refuse to let Push take care of your shock? Again, the new shop doesn't sell Santa Cruz... I WILL ride what they sell

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You're a pretty awesome "internet sleuth" but (based on the number I've times I've said it) your ability to understand that I'm done with the Santa Cruz because it's not offered in the new shop leads my to believe that your reading comprehension is sub-par.

Steve M said:

The leverage rate curve on the TRc is pretty well exactly the opposite of what you'd typically want from an air-sprung bike in particular - both have very low support in the midstroke. It sounds like the OP has made a fairly substantial effort to get around that, to the extent of putting a coil shock in a trailbike, and if it still isn't working for him then I think it's pretty reasonable on his part to just give up on it. The Mach 5.7 has a leverage rate curve that is pretty well the opposite of the TRc (lots of support in the midstroke to counteract the low support of the air spring), that is much more capable of giving him the characteristics he wants.

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Udi said:

Unfortunately the numbers back up everything that the OP experienced - I pulled up the graphs that Steve referred to above and while you can only be so accurate with mapping that stuff (without measuring the bike yourself), the TRc kinematics are the complete opposite of what you would choose for a bike that uses an air shock. There is no valid reason I can think of to use a regressive-linear-progressive LR curve on an air sprung bike - it's just a poor design choice that exacerbates the shock's negative characteristics.

The Mach 5.7 on the other hand has progressive-linear-regressive curve that overcomes the air spring resistance at the start of the stroke, has a lower L/R during the mid stroke to counteract wallowing inherent in the shock, and a higher L/R at the end again to counteract the strong ramp up from the air spring.



I don't think that's the issue here - shocks can fine tuned to improve certain characteristics but you can't really use one to reverse an entire leverage ratio curve.

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Steve and Udi, both of you have been massivel helpful. I really appreciate the emails Udi. I'm encouraged that it's a step in the right direction. I'm still hoping to track down a 5.7 locally, but atleast there is proof that there is potential.

dbozman said:

I had a different experience, with a couple caveats. I live and ride in Phoenix, where Pivot is based; I know several folks there and have a lot of respect for the company. All that said, the '11 Mach 5.7 aluminum I bought was the worst bike (for me) I've ever owned.

I'm 6'2 and about 200 in gear. I bought the Pivot as a "trail" bike for Phoenix, which may mean different things for us than it does folks in other regions.

First, the likes: Beautiful bike, even more so in carbon. Decently light. The large with a 70mm stem and wide bars was perfect from a fit perspective. I liked the geometry, especially when I swapped to a Fox 36 up front.

Full disclosure, this was my first DW bike and I actually prefer FSR/Horst bike for technical climbing. Hell, I even have a single pivot that I like fine. For me, the Pivot pedaled great on smooth climbs. On tech climbing, I found the rear hung up a lot on square edges/ledges. On descents, I found the rig noodley, flexy and very easily overwhelmed in the sort of high-speed chop that we have a lot of here.

Others really love the rig, so I have to think my experience was either an aberration or I have radically different tastes than the norm.

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Thanks the solid review. The new rigs sport a 12mm through axle and at 6' 150lbs I'm not typically one to torque frames. I have however found a few to be flexy in rock/chunder sections. My '10 Reign, '08 Trance and current TRc were particularly noticeably. My first ride on my TRc was a 24hour race and I came into a short downhill section, I freaked out thinking the skewer had broken loose. I've not been inspired to call it stiff, but I can't call it noodley either.

I'm not sure I really understand "getting hung up on square edges" while climbing. How fast are you climbing?

broke(n) said:

I have a 2012 5.7 (alu) frame with 2011 shock (and tune). The geometry of the bike is great if you like thrashing your trail bike and the (alu) frame is certainly plenty stiff enough. However, I would agree that if you are an aggressive rider, the standard ('11) shock tune is too "soft" for the sort of shennanigans the bike encourages. I've had it more aggressively valved and the mid volume reducer added and I still reckon it's too soft/not progressive enough (riding with it always in the mid pro-pedal setting). I get the impression this is not unusual for DW linked trail bikes (I've read similar things about the standard Devinci Dixon tune)

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I'm currently riding m 6 point with a RP23 Adaptive Logic/boost valve and a large chamber. It feels miles better than the stock DHX air. The DHX air on my Sunday was quite wallowey. I'm still hunting for a local rider with a 5.7 to let me try out.

-BB- said:

I have an idea... Why not ride the 6point you already have? That was/is a sweet frame. You said you like it already. It can be built up light, it can be built up heavy... Jack of all trades so to speak.
And YOU ALREADY OWN IT, so it is FREE.

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The new shop doesn't sell Iron Horse.

Let's say you got a job designing cars for Chevy. You currently drive a Ford. Your Ford is a great car and you've got a built motor in it, there's no reason to sell it. Driving a Ford to work at Chevy everyday doesn't do much to encourage the brand.

Shops stay open through the employees working hard to enforce that the products they sell are worthy of people riding them. Riding an expired brand doesn't do that. I HAVE to ride atleast one bike that the shop sells.

It's awesome!
The suspension is spot on. I can use full travel, but still have it plenty supported for manualing through rollers, slamming into corners, pumping... It's super lively for jumping but very stable as well.





And I'll be rolling on the 429 for 24 hour events this year as well..

Yes sir. Come by the shop and check things out. We have 70 miles of amazing singletrack within 15minutes of town.

I will add that working with Pivot was fantastic. We're a very small shop and we won't do the business of guys like Fanatic or Competitive Cyclist and to get the customer service that we have has been great. Our rep came down with a few demos when we hosted a party to present the brand to local riders. They sent a stack of shirts, decals, catalogs and then got our bikes out the door right away. All the bolts were greased and tight, the bearings weren't so tight the swingarm stuck when the shock wasn't mounted and all the threads were clean. It went together REALLY nicely.

All in all, I'm very pleased to be on the 5.7 and working with Pivot.
I may just have to grab a Phoenix to replace my Sunday next year.