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2012 team rumour and speculation

4130biker

PM me about Tantrum Cycles!
May 24, 2007
3,884
448
While bike performance isn't nearly as important as rider skill and ability (as GL alluded to above), I do think it matters. In fact when you're talking about the best riders who are often only separated by split seconds, I don't think it makes sense to ignore the finer details.

To give you some workable examples on the points you brought up:
- A better pedaling bike (i.e. good AS curve) will require lower spring + damper rates to accelerate at a given level, thus possibly allow for higher traction and less rider fatigue
- Better bump absorption via frame kinematics (i.e. high leverage ratio early in travel and/or more rearward axle path) will mean less reliance on soft spring/damper rates for a given level of traction / comfort
- Better mechanical bottom out resistance (i.e. low leverage ratio near end of travel) will reduce dependence on shock - i.e. no need for position sensitive damping, no need to run overly firm spring rates to prevent bottoming
- More stability in dynamic geometry will mean higher predictability and require less rider compensation for unexpected changes (eg. 1. similar travel numbers front and rear so the bike maintains geometry when weighted / unweighted, 2. not relying on an excessively rearward axle path alone for bump absorption - to prevent large changes in CS length and thus rear wheel weighting as bike moves through travel)

Even though WC level setups are usually quite firm like you say, everything that differentiates one bike from another still matters - in fact I'd argue it matters even more, because the harder you push a bike (i.e. the faster you ride), the more critical the fine lines between things like chassis stability and bump absorption become. If you can build a bike that has better bump and pedaling performance than the competition for an equal level of stability (on all fronts - eg. chassis stability, stability of dynamic geometry), you've given your rider an advantage.

Every design is a compromise in some way, but a clever design will maximise performance while minimising pitfalls.
How do you always make so much sense? I don't really have anything all that useful to add accept thank you for always being willing to share some suspension/frame knowledge. I feel like you and Steve M have made it fun and interesting to learn about supsension, which has previously seemed to be a bit of a black art to me.

Back to the thread at hand- I thought it was interesting that Sam Hill has to approve of the bike before he'll ride for a team.
 

numerik

Monkey
Jul 22, 2005
473
8
Slovenia, Europe
Nobody talks about switch to Schwalbe tires. Suspension (RS Blackbox) is the same, also geometry of the bike is more or less the same, but rubber, as "contact" point, could be the biggest difference (and maybe for the better). What do you think?
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Inside-Sam-Hills-Move-to-Team-CRCNukeproof.html

Honestly I thought the Specialized goodbye video sounded like a clingy girlfriend after a bad breakup, there was something just a little off about the whole thing - but it seemed like a good thought and nice thing to do.

I sensed a bit of bitterness in Sean Heimdal's words in this article though...
"It’ll be interesting to see how the transition goes while working with unfamiliar surroundings and without the Championship proven Specialized equipment."
PB: In your eyes, what are the benefits of Sam joining Team CRC/Nukeproof?
Sean: To be completely honest, the only benefit I foresee is a “fresh start” for Sam
PB: How did that initial testing go?
Nigel: He said he had ridden the bike, loved it, and couldn't believe how much speed it carried through the rough sections, which is something I also noticed when I rode the Pulse. He also said he felt like he could win on the Pulse, and so the deal was agreed upon.
Looks like Sam saw some other benefits... perhaps due to better suspension kinematics.
 
I sensed a bit of bitterness in Sean Heimdal's words in this article though...
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Looks like Sam saw some other benefits... perhaps due to better suspension kinematics.
i got the sense he was gutted as well. dont wanna be a hater but i think sam is in the twilight of his career (not quite where Peaty is now) and with a new mouth to feed. I wouldn't be surprised (nor do i blame him) if money was a significant factor, barring any serious deficiencies in the CRC frame, in his switch. if i was in his shoes, i'd try to get the highest payout i could.

IMHO, nowadays shock tuning and geometry is can be easily dialed to taste that it mitigates any significant differences between suspension designs (SP vs FSR vs DWlink, etc). despite the hype, i personally don't think the pulse is any better than the Demo.
 

boylagz

Monkey
Jul 12, 2011
558
61
SF bay area
Reading the QnA's both from pb and vital, things are really interesting now. As with the statement above, its always getting paid the most, if you do this exclusively for a living. Who can do this stuff? Doing what you love, racing bikes, travel and having an absolute blast while doing it. Not very many... Getting the bills paid is what matters at the end of the day for these different breed of professional athletes. Go Sam, kill it next season.
 

StyledAirtime

Monkey
May 24, 2006
245
1
NewZealand
I've read this sentence 8 times and still can't figure out what it means. It could just be the hangover though...
Sorry I was just stating to the person who said it was the fall of Marzocchi now the CRC team is on Sram/Rockshox.
I was stating they have another "highly Visible" team in the MS Mondraker team.
 

William42

fork ways
Jul 31, 2007
3,908
634
i assume he was joking, it seemed pretty clear. huh. didn't even consider that he MIGHT be serious.
 

RayB

Monkey
Jan 31, 2008
744
95
Seattle
Nobody talks about switch to Schwalbe tires. Suspension (RS Blackbox) is the same, also geometry of the bike is more or less the same, but rubber, as "contact" point, could be the biggest difference (and maybe for the better). What do you think?
Honestly... I think Schwalbe is just going to make a DHF/Butcher clone. Their mud spike will suffice, though, I bet.
 

4130biker

PM me about Tantrum Cycles!
May 24, 2007
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I used to think the cloning was kinda lame (DHF copies specifically), but maybe as dh tires become refined, the more similar they become?
Am I wrong in thinking that moto tires have more or less converged on similar designs?
I'm sure finer details will still set the tires apart, but it'll be interesting if they all end up looking almost the same for each given application.
 

boylagz

Monkey
Jul 12, 2011
558
61
SF bay area
Ive been on the MM since early summer 2012 and its an outstanding tire. Prolly the best Ive ran so far. Bone dry to muddy/wet, it works. Hill I reckon will adjust pretty quick. Stoked for racing this year!
 

MmmBones

Monkey
May 8, 2011
272
84
Porkland, OR
I figured this would be the place where people would be talking about Sam Hill and tires. I picked up on that team rumors cartoon of him a while back and thought to myself, he'll be on the Schwalbe Muddy Mary and people will talk about it because they aren't the Minion DHF, but didn't he win his first World Championships as a junior on Intense tires that were similar to the Muddy Mary? I think that he's on to something good here.
 
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Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
That's incorrect, see post #963.

Shock tuning and geometry are not the same thing as frame kinematics. You cannot mitigate poor kinematics with shock tuning, all you can do is compensate for them which tends to negatively impact other facets of performance.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
Every bike has room for improvement. Some more than others.
 

Mo(n)arch

Turbo Monkey
Dec 27, 2010
4,441
1,422
Italy/south Tyrol
Demo has no ramping at the end of the travel (really linear) and almost only forward travel.
Not sure about the Nukeproof.
Has it a high main pivot point?
What's interesting is, that the Nukeproof has a +10mm BB drop against a 0mm or -10mm drop on the carbon demo.
Also the CS length is a 435mm (nukeproof, shortest setting) vs. a 421mm on the demo.

The Sunday had a 438mm CS and 0mm BB drop.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
It would be interesting how much SAG he rides on the Nukeproof and he rode on the demo.
 

al-irl

Turbo Monkey
Dec 9, 2004
1,086
0
A, A
who said the demo is the be all and end all of dh bike design. The nukeproof isnt a million miles apart from a Morewood Makulu in its design, which if im not mistaken is rated very highly. Just because the Nukeproof isnt a high end boutique brand doesnt mean its not a kick ass bike. As far as I know all the team riders opted to run the Scalps in the higher bb setting with a angleset to restore the head angle. They also had custom rear ends which were slightly shorter than the stock one on the scalp. All these tweaks were taken on board and implemented in the new pulse. The CRC riders got some pretty solid results on the bikes last season. Ok ill admit there was no WC wins or podiums but the riders they had wouldnt have been expected to be in the mix for that. There is no reason why with a rider of Sams ability that he cant put the bike on the top step of the podium. This time next year the 2014 bike tread will be full of Nukeproof Pulses