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Old School Marzocchi content- Jm_, Sandwich help

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
Just bought these from the LBS (2001 Super T Pro QR20), unused but have been sitting on the shop floor since 2001 I suppose. Gave them a bit of a cosmetic clean-up and a bit of grease to free up the stanchions. Still not sliding freely. LBS guy suggested new seals but the dust seals at least look OK to me. Definitely need new oil? Can't hear any oil moving. Be interested what you guys recommend to do to get these in good working order. Original thought was to flip them but they're new so be a shame not to ride them just a little.
 

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Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,030
5,918
borcester rhymes
I don't really have any good advice, but if you can't hear the oil moving in those forks, chances are there is none. Old marzocchis slosh around like nothing else. Turn them upside down and you should hear oil tricking for a minute. I'd wager the seals are fine unless they're dried out and cracking.
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
I don't really have any good advice, but if you can't hear the oil moving in those forks, chances are there is none. Old marzocchis slosh around like nothing else. Turn them upside down and you should hear oil tricking for a minute. I'd wager the seals are fine unless they're dried out and cracking.
I just did that and sure enough could listen to that oil flow and they're moving much more freely now. Gotta love that Marzocchi squelch. Seals aren't dry or cracked so I'm good there I think. I'm inclined to go with Jon's advice and replace the oil but be interested to know if there's any technical reason to do so; i.e does the oil goes "stale" or some such thing? Anyway cheers boys, input much appreciated. Fork will go on a '99 FSR with a BETD linkage in the 6" setting so I have to upgrade the rear shock. Should fit a 7.5"/2" shock so if any of you have one for sale let me know. Coil only for moah retroness.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,850
9,556
AK
If the oil is a few years old, then yes, you want to replace it. The innards are not anodized, so they oxidize, and that material gets into the oil, transforming it from clear fork oil, to gunky fowl smelling sludge. They'll usually run a while like this, but it's been so long that I'd highly recommend an oil change. Those cartridges sometimes get "blown" too, the little crude shim springs get bent or just worn and lazy. Forcing that sludge oil through them is probably one of the ways this happens. If you want to keep it simple, just take off the top caps, compress, take out the springs and spacers, use two bowls, turn it upside down, however much comes out, put the same amount back in. I usually liked a bit lighter oil with those, like 5 weight, but anywhere from 5-10 usually worked well.
 
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SLOPE

Monkey
Aug 24, 2001
680
3
Arnold, Maryland
Do not replace with the amount that came out!
Marzocchi was notorious for under filling the forks.
It will only take you a couple extra minutes to make sure it is right.
Go online for oil measurement.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
Marzocchi seals can often be unhappy if the stanchion is removed from them and re-inserted, possibly more likely on older seals too. If you're going to pull the stanchions from the lowers for any reason, I'd keep in mind the possibility of needing new seals.

You can just change the oil without doing that though, and maybe just a lick of slick honey on the stanchions that you wipe off after a few compressions. Also, when you change the oil it probably wouldn't hurt to empty it, pour some fresh stuff in, cycle it and drain it before doing the final fill - just to get rid of any junk / traces of old oil.
 

Huck Banzai

Turbo Monkey
May 8, 2005
2,523
23
Transitory
Marzocchi seals can often be unhappy if the stanchion is removed from them and re-inserted, possibly more likely on older seals too. If you're going to pull the stanchions from the lowers for any reason, I'd keep in mind the possibility of needing new seals. .
I have heard that story for years; I have pulled my own 4 marzocchi's apart repeatedly from 2003 to 2010, as well as others forks, and this has never been an issue at all. If you mash the stanchions through them, I suppose, but as long as your slightly gentle, no prob.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,850
9,556
AK
Yup, I even "mashed" it once and damaged the spring that goes around the wiper. I just left the spring off and the wipers still worked great, no problems till I decided to eventually change the seals in the future.

I was puling my 888 fork apart and putting it together several times to adjust the avalanche damper, no problems ever. Did this with many other marzocchi forks too.

Now my subaru power steering hose, that is a different story entirely. It had a non-adjustable clamp, and after I changed the timing belt, I put the clamp back on the power steering hose, but it would never clamp tight enough to not suck in air into the power steering system, so it felt all screwy for a while, till I figured it out. Put a standard adjustable clamp on there and tightened it up, problem gone.

The thing about replacing the oil that comes out is to establish the same starting point. You could look up the oil tables if you can find them, and if it was performing satisfactory in years past, refilling it to the same level is usually good, then adjusting via about a cap-full at a time for the desired bottoming effect. Dumping a bunch of extra oil in there is not advised and will cause hydro-lock.
 
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Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
I have heard that story for years; I have pulled my own 4 marzocchi's apart repeatedly from 2003 to 2010, as well as others forks, and this has never been an issue at all. If you mash the stanchions through them, I suppose, but as long as your slightly gentle, no prob.
I've seen it happen on 888's and Boxxers without any of the mashing that you describe, rather very gentle insertion, including angular insertion to first mate with the dust wiper followed by pushing it through the seals softly.

Sometimes the "leak" is very small, i.e. just a film of oil left on the stanchions (which many people won't notice or will consider normal), other times it may not happen at all. Perhaps the oil used on the seals has some effect also.

In any case, it was just a suggestion - chances are it might be fine, it also might not. YMMV
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
How much did you pay?...and you think you can flip it for a profit??
I got them for 87.5% off the 2001 retail price so I think I could make a few bucks if I so desired.

I love all of this, please post pics!
20130209_153245.jpg
Bought as a frame only in '99. Needs a fair bit of work to bring it up to standard but rides nicely atm even with the stock Rock Shox Coupe Deluxe acting basically as a pogo stick. (Sorry for the wanky photo, my first feeble attempts at playing around in Picasa)

If the oil is a few years old, then yes, you want to replace it. The innards are not anodized, so they oxidize, and that material gets into the oil, transforming it from clear fork oil, to gunky fowl smelling sludge. They'll usually run a while like this, but it's been so long that I'd highly recommend an oil change. Those cartridges sometimes get "blown" too, the little crude shim springs get bent or just worn and lazy. Forcing that sludge oil through them is probably one of the ways this happens. If you want to keep it simple, just take off the top caps, compress, take out the springs and spacers, use two bowls, turn it upside down, however much comes out, put the same amount back in. I usually liked a bit lighter oil with those, like 5 weight, but anywhere from 5-10 usually worked well.
Thanks Jm_, exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Appreciate everyones input into this thread. One question though, may be a bit difficult and/or expensive to get "Slick Honey" here in Japan so any recommendations on suitable generic type alternatives would be helpful.
 
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H8R

Cranky Pants
Nov 10, 2004
13,959
35
Just bought these from the LBS (2001 Super T Pro QR20), unused but have been sitting on the shop floor since 2001 I suppose. Gave them a bit of a cosmetic clean-up and a bit of grease to free up the stanchions. Still not sliding freely.
Replace the oil and ride. This is back when bushings needed a break-in period. After about 10-15 hours on the new oil, replace it again and it will feel like buttah.

These Zokes were not so dependent on grease to feel good, it's all about the oil bath.
 

H8R

Cranky Pants
Nov 10, 2004
13,959
35
Oh and a little silicone spray on the stanchions once per ride helps with the stiction.
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
Few more pics for Horror Business.
20130202_164057.jpg
'99 FSR Ground Control. Previous owner destroyed the frame shock mount but it was professionally repaired at a motorcycle shop and has since lasted a further 14 years. So I guess it was a job well done. BETD linkages for this vintage FSR are still available but cost 110 pounds! I can't remember paying that much for mine. Also rare is the Specialized "shark fin" disc brake adapter. If you have one, don't let it go for less than $100. I kid you not.
20130202_163957.jpg
You can see here the problems with the Rock Shox Coupe Deluxe. It's completely knackered but doesn't leak. As much as I'd like to keep things peroid correct I think a slightly more modern coil shock would be the go.
FH000019-001.jpg
In another skin from 2001. Front wheel built by sometime RM legend Partsbara
20130308_123919.jpg
Brand new '98 FSR at the LBS I have my eye on. Really want the frame only but he won't split. Fork are '99 Showa DH air forks. V-brake only, funky as hell but the seals are shot and I doubt even Mr Showa himself has any replacements.
 

davep

Turbo Monkey
Jan 7, 2005
3,276
0
seattle
This will tell you exactly what slick honey is (this is their commercial/OEM site)

http://www.slickoleum.com/specifications.html

they will ship international last time I checked, or you can simply match specs with something available locally. Several higher end moto lube companies make seal grease that should be fine.


I have never had a Marz seal go bad from fork work, but the raw aluminum inners do turn good oil in to rancid sludge quick (one whistler day from translucent to completely opaque in a 1st gen 888).
 
Jun 20, 2007
349
9
Thanks for the pics, love the bike. I have my FSR/BETD/Shark Fin disc adapter in the basement. What a bike!

Are you telling me there is a bike shop in 2013 that is selling a NOS '98 FSR?
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
And how much does this shop want for the bike?
About $300 of your American dollars.

Edited- other NOS stuff that may be of interest to RM members are the 2000 Monster Ts, the 2000 S-Works DH Shaun Palmer edition frame (unfortunately a small), a Specialized top of the line XC frame from the same era and some Answer Manitou forks that must be from the mid 90's. Also has a fully built Canondale Raven from I guess around 2000. It's literally Aladdin's cave for retro lovers.
 
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valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
So I finally got around to cracking the hood on these bastards and the oil poured out absolutely clear just like the day it was put in. So I poured it back in, topped it up (as SLOPE said they were underfilled). Waste not, want not. Still waiting for the lbs to build me a wheel.

In the meantime I pulled my Jr Ts apart and changed the seals. I got the seal kit but I see here (scroll to the bottom) that the "kit", 2 oil seals and 2 dust seals is more expensive than buying the parts individually. I could potentially save myself up to five of those British pounds. That's enough to buy a pint! Is there a catch, there must be a catch right? I've got another fork to do (2002 Z1s) so a penny saved is a penny earned as they say.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Hey man. You want a much more pimper full extruded ground control frame? It's basically the more upper end version of that era. It's got that sweet sparkleen paint job that looks green at some angles and purple in others.

I've got a betd chainstay and a risse seatstay on it with a full replacement of the pivot bearings from the bushings they came built with. I also stuck a swinglink from a first year enduro on there so you can adjust the travel (3.6 vs 4.1 or something). I've been holding onto it forever (obviously) but I built it up to be a 4x/dj bike eons ago, so it's pretty damn burly with the other rear end stuff I've got on it. It's got a chris king steel set pounded into the headtube so it should never ovalize if you go ride it for real.

It's this frame. (and this guy actually has the full risse rear end, mine's just the seatstays) I've also got the original rear end of you're looking for a wall piece.

http://fcdn.mtbr.com/attachments/vintage-retro-classic/470838d1247852581-specialized-fsr-max-backbone-p7170253.jpg

edit: duh, I didn't read the whole thread. It sounds like you might already have one of these?
 
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thad

Monkey
Sep 28, 2004
388
21
^I had one of those in red. White bros dc110 fork(which made me swear to never buy another WB product), All grey XTR, except red cooks bros cranks, and king hubs on 217's. Bike was pimp once it got a Z1 on it.
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
Woo, if the rear end has disc tabs take it of and sell it seperately, people will pay surprising amounts to get their hands on stuff like that. Rare as rocking horse manure. Post up a pic of yours.
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
So at the risk of being told to take your stupid, heavy, ancient shit and fuck off back to the 20th century I'll bump this thread as I guess a few you might get a kick out of some of this.
DSC_0544.JPG
DSC_0546.JPG

So the lbs finally split the old FSR, with the Showa forks and these old bastards are growing on me, I've never seen anything like them. Trying to think of reasons to keep them. As far as I can tell they are oil, springs, elastomers and air. And about 7 of your American pounds in weight. Dust seals are cracked but it doesn't seem to be leaking oil or air. I think the Monsters are 2000 with the silver crowns, 2001 was the black crowns. Going to have to flip them but just wanted to own another pair for a few weeks. Righto then as you were.
 

xy9ine

Turbo Monkey
Mar 22, 2004
2,940
353
vancouver eastside
my first dh(ish) bike was a '99 fsr elite - just like this:



4" of quality elastomeric suspension up front. i made a crude long travel kit for the rear - bolted chunks of aluminum plate to the existing swing link, effectively extending the lever & bumping travel to about 6". the geometry was undoubtedly messed up, but i thought it was awesome at the time.
 
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Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,030
5,918
borcester rhymes
those were the days man...when MOAR travel was inherently better. 5" out of a proflex? Sure. 8" out of a norco? I'm sure the coupe deluxe could handle it. Seals? On my hanebrink? nah...just mix a little oil and vaseline and call it a day.