The REALLY best rear shock in the world!

boylagz · Mar 10, 2013

@Steve, thanks again. Im so bummed I cant ride any time soon, Im sick, feel like ****. But anyway, thanks for the explanation. Surely I dont want a harsh and dead ride, so I have to give my new setup a go and see how it is. And if it makes any difference, Im running my bike in 8.5", and Ive tried running the same spring rate (400#) in 10" mode with a Vivid R2C coil. While it felt ok, it defo was a tad soft. Switched to 8.5" with the same shock and spring, felt miles better. So I dunno if spring rates in proportion to rider weight with different brand shocks are that varied. Ill rep back once I get a proper ride in with the Double Barrel.

Udi · Mar 10, 2013

Reading my link in post #21 might shed some light on why your CCDB feels softer than the R2C even though it's running the same spring in the same frame in 8.5" mode, if that's indeed what you're saying (wasn't quite sure).

Obviously the same spring rate will result in more sag in 10" mode as the leverage is higher, thus needing a firmer spring rate to maintain the same sag.

Any reason you went to a softer spring? To give you an example (if I've got the right idea from your posts), if I was happy with a 400 spring on a Vivid R2C (in 8.5" mode) and wanted to change to a CCDB, I'd either keep the same spring, or ideally maybe even run a 425. I wouldn't be going to a softer rate.

saruti · Mar 10, 2013

It seems to me that we really wont notice a change...
10 mm of Counter Measure spring it's not even noticeable when running 30% sag
Maybe PROS use less sag, so it is good for them. it is known that pros like their suspension harder. no?
and... what is wrong with oposite air chambers? it is working great o my 2007 PIKE.

boylagz · Mar 10, 2013

Udi said:
Reading my link in post #21 might shed some light on why your CCDB feels softer than the R2C even though it's running the same spring in the same frame in 8.5" mode, if that's indeed what you're saying (wasn't quite sure).

Obviously the same spring rate will result in more sag in 10" mode as the leverage is higher, thus needing a firmer spring rate to maintain the same sag.

Any reason you went to a softer spring? To give you an example (if I've got the right idea from your posts), if I was happy with a 400 spring on a Vivid R2C (in 8.5" mode) and wanted to change to a CCDB, I'd either keep the same spring, or ideally maybe even run a 425. I wouldn't be going to a softer rate.

To be perfectly honest I got a steal on a 3.0 stroke 400# Manitou Ti spring, which surprisingly is a lil longer than my 450# steel CC spring. It fits, but had to do a lil muscling to get it in. With ~3 turns of preload, sag is about 33%. Sag with the 450# steel spring was about 30ish, maybe a little less. Also reason Im so anxious to ride when I feel better so I can compare the difference of the two. If Im not happy with the softer spring Ill sell it. No use for bling if its not doing the job.

Lelandjt · Mar 10, 2013

So the differences between the '12 & '13 shocks are?:
1. Ending stroke rebound is now a knob instead of allen bolt
2. Some kind of negative spring in the damper and improved surfaces to react quicker.
That's it? I'm specifically curious if there's any changes to the Air's spring, I only heard them talking about the damper.

I ask because I have a '13 V10 frame coming to me by the end of March with a RC4 (Vivid Air is an option). I'm putting that shock on my '11 V10 frame that's a friend's buying and I'm putting that frame's '12 Vivid Air on the new V10. If there's a compelling reason to want the '13 shock over the '12 I'll ask Santa Cruz to wait till it's available and ship the frame with the new Vivid Air, leaving the old shock on the old frame that's being sold.

If it's just the 2 differences I stated I can save some money by not paying the V10's shock upgrade charge and my buddy would probably prefer a RC4 to a Vivid Air on the frame I'm selling him. While a knob on the ESR would be nice I'm fine with the current adjustment and with the V10's high leverage suspension I don't think the damper improvements will be very noticeable.

Edit: Yes, my name's on that list if it really matters.

Udi · Mar 10, 2013

boylagz said:
If Im not happy with the softer spring Ill sell it. No use for bling if its not doing the job.

Absolutely, try both and let us know which setup you prefer - the 400 or the 450, or perhaps ideally you'd have something in between. I'm currently intrigued by this topic.

Not sure if you skimmed the CCDB thread, but basically the shock has a little less air spring effect contributing to its overall spring rate (lower chamber pressure and smaller shaft cross sectional area for pressure to act over), so that's why it might feel a little softer than the Vivid R2C. I'd try a little extra LSC/HSC with the 400 (like Steve suggested) and the opposite with the 450 and see which you prefer.

Sandwich · Mar 10, 2013

First off, I love the people on this site. Seriously hi-tech discussion here.

Also, won't adding a mechanical negative spring, particularly in the air shock, require tuning that spring to the spring rate? Certainly the same negative spring in a shock with a 600lb spring can't be the same that's in a 250lb spring shock. Same with the air shock. There goes some the "infinite tuning" argument, as you'll have to buy a new spring and tear down your shock if you sell the shock to a heavier rider or put it on a different bike.

That was the case with the older leftys that had mechanical negative springs. Riders had to buy different springs based on their weight in order to get the thing not to top out. Plus it's heavier...

EVIL JN · Mar 10, 2013

Bur dosent the Air already have a negative spring? That is why you have to pump up the shock a bit cycle it a few times to let air flow into the negative spring, repeat a few times then you can set desired pressure. the mechanical spring is only there to counter the piggyback pressure, which should be the same across both platforms?

boylagz · Mar 10, 2013

Udi said:
Absolutely, try both and let us know which setup you prefer - the 400 or the 450, or perhaps ideally you'd have something in between. I'm currently intrigued by this topic.

Not sure if you skimmed the CCDB thread, but basically the shock has a little less air spring effect contributing to its overall spring rate (lower chamber pressure and smaller shaft cross sectional area for pressure to act over), so that's why it might feel a little softer than the Vivid R2C. I'd try a little extra LSC/HSC with the 400 (like Steve suggested) and the opposite with the 450 and see which you prefer.

Yes I did read the whole thread, really good, got a ton of useful tips. As per suggestions, I've upped LSC by 6 clicks, and added 1 full turn to HSC (CC's baselines are 10 clicks for LSC and 1 turn for HSC). Psyched to get a ride in next weekend.

Also with your sag thread, really interesting. Ill be subbed to see more input, what others are running in their setups.

Uncle Cliffy · Mar 10, 2013

Had to share:

boylagz · Mar 11, 2013

^ Haha. Good one man.

Steve M · Mar 11, 2013

Sandwich said:
First off, I love the people on this site. Seriously hi-tech discussion here.

Also, won't adding a mechanical negative spring, particularly in the air shock, require tuning that spring to the spring rate? Certainly the same negative spring in a shock with a 600lb spring can't be the same that's in a 250lb spring shock. Same with the air shock. There goes some the "infinite tuning" argument, as you'll have to buy a new spring and tear down your shock if you sell the shock to a heavier rider or put it on a different bike.

That was the case with the older leftys that had mechanical negative springs. Riders had to buy different springs based on their weight in order to get the thing not to top out. Plus it's heavier...

The idea here is that the damper charge is a constant (250psi), so the mechanical spring in the damper will always have the same force to push against. The negative air spring however is self-adjusting, so that will just balance against itself at whatever pressure anyway. It's a neat idea, but what people should realise is that the only thing it will actually alter is the force required to overcome the initial gas charge preload. It doesn't mean there is any reduction in stiction whatsoever, so the claim that it's "60x better" is purely based on the force required to overcome that initial damper preload. To put it in perspective, the difference in the actual ride of the bike will be the equivalent of changing your spring preload by a few turns.

Kanye West · Mar 11, 2013

Steve M said:
The CoM height of bikes does vary more than MX bikes for sure because of rider height differences, but taller riders (higher CoM) also typically ride longer frames, which reduces the effect of that in terms of rotational (pitching) accelerations. Rider position alone also has an enormous effect on the actual CoM position at any given moment, much moreso than MX bikes, which is a large part of the reason why a good rider on a poorly setup bike is at less of a disadvantage in mountain biking than he is in any kind of motorsports.

Actually, there is about a 2.5" vertical variation between the peg/case/frame heights on all the popular MX bikes these days. That's a lot of mass shift in the vehicle if you put the frame/motor mass up that much higher or lower, along with the mass of the rider. I found it to be pretty surprising, and it's not a parameter that's very widely noticed in the MX world for some reason.

Back to the topic: RockShox, what a joke. Let your products market themselves, not this idiotic crap.

Steve M · Mar 11, 2013

Hacktastic said:
Actually, there is about a 2.5" vertical variation between the peg/case/frame heights on all the popular MX bikes these days. That's a lot of mass shift in the vehicle if you put the frame/motor mass up that much higher or lower, along with the mass of the rider. I found it to be pretty surprising, and it's not a parameter that's very widely noticed in the MX world for some reason.

Back to the topic: RockShox, what a joke. Let your products market themselves, not this idiotic crap.

Yeah, but there's easily 6"+ difference in static CoM at different points in time on a DH bike due to BB height variations, sag variations, body position variations in addition to the fact that the smallest women are ~5' tall and the taller men are over 6'4"!

In fairness to Rockshox, this marketing technique HAS gotten them a lot of attention. Interesting method though, to say the least.

Kanye West · Mar 11, 2013

Steve M said:
Yeah, but there's easily 6"+ difference in static CoM at different points in time on a DH bike due to BB height variations, sag variations, body position variations in addition to the fact that the smallest women are ~5' tall and the taller men are over 6'4"!

In fairness to Rockshox, this marketing technique HAS gotten them a lot of attention. Interesting method though, to say the least.

Right, so consider a bike that weighs 230#, with a 2.5" variance in BB height (or its equivalent), sags 4" at the rear wheel, aftermarket tanks that allow an additional 8# up high on the bike, and a range of riders from 5'4 (Carmichael) or shorter (125 riders and other fast little whippersnappers) up to 6'7+ giants! That CM can be ALL over the place, regardless of the bike. I would contend that it has more variation than DH bikes.

Someone else had a point that the shocks/frames are made in conjunction with a functional general setting in OEM form. None of this mix'n'match stuff. Wouldn't that be nice.

Vrock · Mar 11, 2013

Steve M said:
The idea here is that the damper charge is a constant (250psi), so the mechanical spring in the damper will always have the same force to push against. The negative air spring however is self-adjusting, so that will just balance against itself at whatever pressure anyway. It's a neat idea, but what people should realise is that the only thing it will actually alter is the force required to overcome the initial gas charge preload. It doesn't mean there is any reduction in stiction whatsoever, so the claim that it's "60x better" is purely based on the force required to overcome that initial damper preload. To put it in perspective, the difference in the actual ride of the bike will be the equivalent of changing your spring preload by a few turns.

On the trail it's going to work almost the same as the old one, but the feeling on the showroom it's going to be amazing. And that's not a bad idea from a selling point of view, you can put a finger in the saddle and see the suspension working a bit...

Vrock · Mar 11, 2013

Steve M said:
The idea here is that the damper charge is a constant (250psi), so the mechanical spring in the damper will always have the same force to push against. The negative air spring however is self-adjusting, so that will just balance against itself at whatever pressure anyway. It's a neat idea, but what people should realise is that the only thing it will actually alter is the force required to overcome the initial gas charge preload. It doesn't mean there is any reduction in stiction whatsoever, so the claim that it's "60x better" is purely based on the force required to overcome that initial damper preload. To put it in perspective, the difference in the actual ride of the bike will be the equivalent of changing your spring preload by a few turns.

On the trail it's going to work almost the same as the old one, but the feeling on the showroom it's going to be amazing. And that's not a bad idea from a selling point of view, you can put a finger in the saddle and see the suspension working a bit...

frango · Mar 11, 2013

Does it mean, that the bike will SAG under its own weight?

chillindrdude · Mar 11, 2013

frango said:
Does it mean, that the bike will SAG under its own weight?

On a mx bike, absolutely. On mtb, prob not measureable, if at all...

frango · Mar 11, 2013

I know it's a case in motorcycles, but, as new Vivid is supposed to have 0 friction, and "but the feeling on the showroom it's going to be amazing"... So, if it would be so plush and sensitive, it may also SAG under bike's weight.
Or am I getting it wrong? ;>

Sandwich · Mar 11, 2013

Ah, I see now. For whatever reason I thought the negative spring was replacing the negative air spring component.

As for sag under weight, I think that's what it's effectively going to achieve. I had a Brooklyn and that was one of its claims to fame. The suspension curve was such that the bike had a few mm of sag under its own weight. The bike was super plush and supple, but it's been so long and I had nothing to compare it to say what effect it had. That was back in the 3.0 days too.

norbar · Mar 11, 2013

Steve M said:
Yeah, but there's easily 6"+ difference in static CoM at different points in time on a DH bike due to BB height variations, sag variations, body position variations in addition to the fact that the smallest women are ~5' tall and the taller men are over 6'4"!

In fairness to Rockshox, this marketing technique HAS gotten them a lot of attention. Interesting method though, to say the least.

Sorry to hijack it into marketing but last time I checked RS didn't have problems with brand visibility but brand image. Doubt this is going to change it. They need to do something with people hating them, not more people hating them. It's a closed and hermetic market, it's not like people are going to miss a new product from a manufacturer with the biggest market share in the segment.

@Hacktastic - rider height is less of an issue on an MX bike because of bike/rider weight ratio.

Kanye West · Mar 11, 2013

norbar said:
Sorry to hijack it into marketing but last time I checked RS didn't have problems with brand visibility but brand image. Doubt this is going to change it. They need to do something with people hating them, not more people hating them. It's a closed and hermetic market, it's not like people are going to miss a new product from a manufacturer with the biggest market share in the segment.

@Hacktastic - rider height is less of an issue on an MX bike because of bike/rider weight ratio.

Heh, you say that...

Keep in mind, there's only one size bike available on dirt bikes. Rider height is a MAJOR issue on dirt bikes. To set one up properly, both for ergos, and suspension, is a tremendous pain in the ass. Just ask Gemini2kwhatever. He's 6'7" and will probably never look right on a dirt bike. With that riders CM way higher up, that makes a huge difference in suspension setup. Remember, the bikes are sprung/valved for the weight of the rider and the bike on a MX bike so the relationship in weight between the two is REALLY important. On a DH bike, it's just sprung/valved for the rider.

norbar · Mar 12, 2013

Hacktastic said:
Heh, you say that...

Keep in mind, there's only one size bike available on dirt bikes. Rider height is a MAJOR issue on dirt bikes. To set one up properly, both for ergos, and suspension, is a tremendous pain in the ass. Just ask Gemini2kwhatever. He's 6'7" and will probably never look right on a dirt bike. With that riders CM way higher up, that makes a huge difference in suspension setup. Remember, the bikes are sprung/valved for the weight of the rider and the bike on a MX bike so the relationship in weight between the two is REALLY important. On a DH bike, it's just sprung/valved for the rider.

Yes it is important in MX but the CM of the system is much more reliant on the rider in mtb. Yes if you end up with a funky position on an mx bike it's a PITA but outside of some extremes it's not as noticeable.

chillindrdude · Mar 12, 2013

@norbar.

While i understand the reasoning behind the physics, i would argue that when i first rode a dirt bike, body positioning was way more important. From my perspective, i had to really focus on body positioning for traction on climbs and put the right amount weight on the pegs for cornering. Everytime i ride, i am sore in the abs and upper body, similar to having lifted, the next day.

norbar · Mar 12, 2013

chillindrdude said:
@norbar.

While i understand the reasoning behind the physics, i would argue that when i first rode a dirt bike, body positioning was way more important. From my perspective, i had to really focus on body positioning for traction on climbs and put the right amount weight on the pegs for cornering. Everytime i ride, i am sore in the abs and upper body, similar to having lifted, the next day.

But what is being sore have to do with center of mass and body position. If you are sore after sex you also blame it on improper body position?

Also yes if there are less sizing options positioning is more important because you have to adapt to the bike and in mtb you adjust your position with frame and cockpit parts. You don't have to fight against your bike.

joeg · Mar 12, 2013

i'm not a 3 percenter, but my kid could tell the difference. she was like "negaspring? negaspring? negaspring?" when we got to the park. she's typically no fan of air shocks, but this one is a contender for her second birthday present if I can get her on the UCI roster by pulling some strings.

4130biker · Mar 12, 2013

joeg said:
i'm not a 3 percenter, but my kid could tell the difference. she was like "negaspring? negaspring? negaspring?" when we got to the park. she's typically no fan of air shocks, but this one is a contender for her second birthday present if I can get her on the UCI roster by pulling some strings.

View attachment 113456

That bike has EVERY bell and whistle!

PS- good to hear that commonfolk can enjoy that shock

Resurrect most expensive bike thread, anyone?

Steve M · Mar 13, 2013

chillindrdude said:
@norbar.

While i understand the reasoning behind the physics, i would argue that when i first rode a dirt bike, body positioning was way more important. From my perspective, i had to really focus on body positioning for traction on climbs and put the right amount weight on the pegs for cornering. Everytime i ride, i am sore in the abs and upper body, similar to having lifted, the next day.

What is actually happening there is that you're needing to EXAGGERATE your body movements/position as compared to a mountain bike, because your body movements have less influence on the CoM location than they do on a DH bike, due to the large sprung mass of the frame/motor, which is more or less rigid and cannot move back/forwards/up/down anywhere near as much as the rider. Goes back to what I was saying before about the CoM of MX bikes being a lot less varied than DH bikes.

chillindrdude · Mar 13, 2013

Cant find the link, but RS says "just kiddin' ", the vivid air will be available to my slow poke ass for purchase May 2013.

Tomasz · Mar 13, 2013

Some people claimed to be upset by this? It's true: Someone will pretend to get worked up over everything.

demo 9 · Mar 13, 2013

joeg said:
i'm not a 3 percenter, but my kid could tell the difference. she was like "negaspring? negaspring? negaspring?" when we got to the park. she's typically no fan of air shocks, but this one is a contender for her second birthday present if I can get her on the UCI roster by pulling some strings.

View attachment 113456

what is that "thing" on the cranks?

4130biker · Mar 13, 2013

demo 9 said:
what is that "thing" on the cranks?

That's him making us jealous by coasting to work on a dh bike with a coffee in his hand every morning. Well, at least that's my guess.

Tomasz · Mar 13, 2013

demo 9 said:
what is that "thing" on the cranks?

EGO kit.

Spent some time riding a V10.4 with it. Will make you believe in god.

General Lee · Mar 14, 2013

Some of you need to read this:

http://www.bikemag.com/news/news-of-the-tweet-97-percent-of-the-internet-is-as-dumb-as-a-hammer/

"If you are one of the ass hats who got wound up by their little tease then you probably can’t tell the on-trail difference between a $400 rear shock and a potato stuffed into your linkages, unless there was a forum thread you once read about the performance co-efficiency and damping characteristics of starchy tubers."

Reminds me of when a friend of mine once had "Pull" stickers on his rear shock and people used to push on it ans say how much better it felt. (*nothing against proper Push tuning, but it was amazing to see the power of a sticker at work).

syadasti · Mar 14, 2013

They left out where to buy the potato kit???

General Lee · Mar 14, 2013

syadasti said:
They left out where to buy the potato kit???

And links to the dyno charts comparing the performance of Red Russet and Idaho, and where I can send them to get more butter.

Acadian · Mar 14, 2013

General Lee said:
Some of you need to read this:

http://www.bikemag.com/news/news-of-the-tweet-97-percent-of-the-internet-is-as-dumb-as-a-hammer/

"If you are one of the ass hats who got wound up by their little tease then you probably can’t tell the on-trail difference between a $400 rear shock and a potato stuffed into your linkages, unless there was a forum thread you once read about the performance co-efficiency and damping characteristics of starchy tubers."

see post #13 and #15 on first page for where "original" quote came from...

have to give props where props are due

syadasti · Mar 14, 2013

General Lee said:
And links to the dyno charts comparing the performance of Red Russet and Idaho, and where I can send them to get more butter.

ALEXIS_DH is from the land of the potato, ask him.

General Lee · Mar 14, 2013

Acadian said:
see post #13 and #15 on first page for where "original" quote came from...

have to give props where props are due

You don't think I actually subjected myself to reading that far in this thread do you?

The REALLY best rear shock in the world!

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