Can we finally be done with the HOOP la?

atrokz said:

The point is, most are 'designers' and not engineers, and to further that point, the marketing sells it like it was designed by the worlds greatest engineers and we'd all be fools to question the ideas that come out of this 'industry'. I'm sure Gemini2K gets my point.

I don't think I've had to explain basic points more in my life than on this forum.

Also, I didn't compare. At all. I just said most wouldn't cut it and that comes from working in it my entire career. That's not a comparison, it's a statement

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Precisely.

It pisses me off to the core when I hear incompetent hippie bike component "industrial designers" call themselves engineers, and can't even figure out how to spec standard hardware on their frames or produce an inspection detail drawing. Or a CAD monkey with no engineering/process/analysis experience claims the same. They're also the most stubborn and arrogant about their minor achievements.

They literally would not last a week in an aerospace engineering environment.

Of course there are exceptions throughout the industry. But contrary to what someone above said, the incompetent ones in this industry are NOT the exception, they're the standard, which is horrifying. But this industry pays low-level government worker wages for engineers, so they do get what they pay for mostly.

Hacktastic said:

Of course there are exceptions throughout the industry. But contrary to what someone above said, the incompetent ones in this industry are NOT the exception, they're the standard, which is horrifying. But this industry pays low-level government worker wages for engineers, so they do get what they pay for mostly.

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i didn't say anything about competent vs incompetent engineers, my comment was in regards to engineers vs designers.

that being said, i do agree with your point.

OK folks, want to hear a perspective from a spot in the world WAY far from the USA/Canada scene? Here it goes. Down here in Argentina we have the bigger population concentration near the pampas (i.e. flat land with occassional 1000ft sierras, but as far as 500 miles apart from each other). So since the local MTB scene has been dominated by XC racing since the early '90s, about 6 ago a bunch of never-gonna-win-anything roadies invented a new category. They called it "Rural Bike", and it was down to racing XC bikes with rigid forks and big front rings (some guys stuff Compact road ones in their bikes) thru rural dirt roads. They went as ghey as they could, with people calling a race off since "there was mud in the track and that could lead to potential accidents" (yes, I know, it's as dumb as it sounds).

Well, I wrote my previous mild-rant paragraph to lead in what's happening down here: most of these dirt-haters so-called mountain bikers are eager to try every new wheel size the industry could throw at them, in the hope that could make them faster than the rest of the not-so-good-for-the-road crowd. Three years ago 29ers exploded down here, and now every weight wheenie who cannot afford to build a chinese 29er carbon clone I know is trying to fit 650b wheels to their 26-inch XC rigs.

This is also driving a dangerous movement against our local trail system (the Pereyra Iraola Forest provincial reserve) , which we have been sustainably building and working on for the last 20 years, and consist mainly of muddy, rooty, tight-switchbacked singletrack. Most of these so-called "racers" consider these trails life endangering, and they are trying to convince the local park rangers to broaden and flatten them.

Personally, I have tried several 29ers and recently a 650b Scott AM rig,and I still would choose 26 over everything for the same reasons I craved something like a modern dirt jumper frame when I started riding about 20 years ago: I like short chainstays, low BBs and long top tubes. I like my bike to be able to spin over a 25c coin if I want it to, and still climb decently.

To me this whole 650b enderpo mania we're seeing this year was brought into the scene with just one thing in mind: force market segmentation. Remember when you could swap components from one bike to the next one, or choose the right ones for your riding style over a broader fanout of options? Well, those days are over buddy, since the companies want you to pay way more for every component with the excuse they are making them "discipline specific". And even when an AM rim may differ from a XC one in just the stickers it sports, it still is a different product. Face it guys, the companies are etlling us the days of our beloved do-it-all bikes are over, and we need get three bikes to substitute one we were happy with, but they consider obsolete. If you want a new XC/Trail rig, it would have to be a 29er, a 27.5 for the AM/enduro crowd, and 26 would fall into the DJ/Slopestyle/DH niche.

slimshady said:

To me this whole 650b enderpo mania we're seeing this year was brought into the scene with just one thing in mind: force market segmentation...

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I have to admit I love my 650b trail bike I built this year, bigger wheels do make a difference. Personally, I'd prefer it if we all still rode 26r and the difference at races was purely fitness and technical ability. Unfortunately the 29r move ruined that for all of us and (on some trails) we're just at too much of a disadvantage on 26r against the 29r crew. I tried to believe it wasn't true for years and that it doesn't matter what the bike is but trying a 29r you can definitely cut time off on an XC race these days no matter how fit you are, unfortunately I hated riding the 29r so I chose the 650b so I can still manual and jump the bike yet get some benefit of the bigger wheels. So I blame all of this on the niner movement and 650b is just catchup for us shorter guys who 1. Don't fit on a niner well and 2. Don't want to completely give up the fun factor of the 26 bikes. I wish our local XC race series broke it into classes by wheel size, they could call the 29r category the Roadies MTB and the 26r the Real MTB Race. If it weren't for the fact that everyone I ride with weekly rides a 29r I'd still be hammering my 26r but gets kind of boring riding by myself and then catching up to the crew winded while they're shooting the ****. With the 650b I can now keep up again, that was not true on my last 3 26r bikes. Maybe some of you can but my guess is you'd be even faster on a 29r even though you wouldn't be having fun.

slimshady said:

OK folks, want to hear a perspective from a spot in the world WAY far from the USA/Canada scene?

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Good post. Funny thing is that this is almost exactly what is happening in many places in the U.S.

It's happening here and is supported by certain groups and forum admins as well. Speak up about it and you're an elitist/selfish/etc.

atrokz said:

It's happening here and is supported by certain groups and forum admins as well. Speak up about it and you're an elitist/selfish/etc.

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velodrome the woods.

you heard it here first folks.

jonKranked said:

velodrome the woods.

you heard it here first folks.

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Well it IS a reason I'm riding my CX bike on the same trails I used to bring a 'FR' bike. Groomed and roots cut like you wouldn't believe. At least the CX bike brings back some of the challenge, even though it's technically a 29er.....

atrokz said:

it's happening here and is supported by certain groups and forum admins as well. Speak up about it and you're an elitist/selfish/etc.

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racist!

There's different schools that are dumbing down the trails, the DJ/FR crowd is just as much to blame building these super buff BMX style trails with berms, whoops and tables where natural rough trails used to exist. This is just as much to blame as the new style XC trails (dirt sidewalks) though the former can be fun on a 26" HT where the latter is not since the turns are huge for the 18 wheelers to go through with speed. Funny thing is that the original concept of the 29r was to smooth out the rough trails with wheel diameter instead of suspension and it does that very well. It's just a bi-product of who the niner bikes have brought into the world of MTB that the trails are losing their fun factor.

jonKranked said:

velodrome the woods.

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like this?:

DH Dad said:

There's different schools that are dumbing down the trails, the DJ/FR crowd is just as much to blame building these super buff BMX style trails with berms, whoops and tables where natural rough trails used to exist. This is just as much to blame as the new style XC trails (dirt sidewalks) though the former can be fun on a 26" HT where the latter is not since the turns are huge for the 18 wheelers to go through with speed. Funny thing is that the original concept of the 29r was to smooth out the rough trails with wheel diameter instead of suspension and it does that very well. It's just a bi-product of who the niner bikes have brought into the world of MTB that the trails are losing their fun factor.

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perhaps we'll see a return to 26'ers to bring back a modicum of technicality to buffed out trails. give it a few years, and 'funner, lighter, faster accelerating' small wheels will be all the rage.

The problem is that the US has basically no trails relative to demand. No reason we can't have it all - tech trails, smooth trails, and fast buffed trails.

So does anyone think the change in handlebar width over the past 10 years has anything to do with trails getting wider? I rode some old trails (first rode them in 1990) the other day and the 28" wide Easton Haven bars actually couldn't physically fit through some sections. Luckily I was going slow at the time as the bars wedged between the two trees and I stopped and had to yank the bike back out. Just another random thought. I believe when I first rode these trails bars were typically about 20.5" wide and 23-24" bars were for DH.

Drth Vadr said:

^^^^This is what this thread was suppose to be about. No hate on any wheel size, Only love for the engineers and designer for that matter, but instead complete disdain for the bull**** lies that flows like the chocolate in Willy Wonka's river from manufactures. Deception and misdirection are their motto.They didn't like the name 650b so they changed it to 27.5 and thats not even true.

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Damn, Let the anger flow through you Derp Vader!
Embrace the power of the industry.

Jeremy R said:

Damn, Let the anger flow through you Derp Vader!
Embrace the power of the industry.

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Remeber Vader redeemed himself (or Luke did, as he said) before he died.

slimshady said:

Remeber Vader redeemed himself (or Luke did, as he said) before he died.

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I literally cannot look away.

Looks very similar to my favorite

Chubby Vader will now appeal to a much wider audience. American kids.

Disney is on to something.

xy9ine said:

perhaps we'll see a return to 26'ers to bring back a modicum of technicality to buffed out trails. give it a few years, and 'funner, lighter, faster accelerating' small wheels will be all the rage.

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25's in 2016. You heard it here first. Start hoarding your 27.5 rims and tires.

He he you should all ride road bikes and love the UCI who makes sure everything stays the same.

slimshady said:

This is also driving a dangerous movement against our local trail system (the Pereyra Iraola Forest provincial reserve) , which we have been sustainably building and working on for the last 20 years, and consist mainly of muddy, rooty, tight-switchbacked singletrack. Most of these so-called "racers" consider these trails life endangering, and they are trying to convince the local park rangers to broaden and flatten them.

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I have not been able to put this thought into words, thank you.

We've definitely seen the taming of trails here in Seattle. The famous Duthie Mountain Bike Park received dramatic changes to the nature of its trails - many of the "XC" trails had roots removed and trails re-routed to lengthen and provide "flow". Additionally, one of the "gravity trails" was completely re-designed as a "flow-jump trail" because it was deemed "too dangerous".

I read an argument from one of the trail crew stating that the upkeep of new "flow section(s)" is less time consuming when compared to the repair time required for the traditional root-filled sections.

While I can understand the frustration, this question comes to mind - How do we make better riders when the trails being constantly tamed down?

This subject is extremely apparent in the gravity scene in the NW.

The pro track on Mt. Hood Skibowl recently saw the taming of its infamous rock traverse. The volunteer trail crew was directed to "make it more friendly"; this resulted in the removal of several large rocks throughout the section of trail.

The implication of this re-work, will result in the following:
1. Riders will now navigate the course at even higher speeds, increasing the magnitude of injury should an incident occur
2. Cat 1 girls will continue to complain about the rough course
3. The taming-snowball has started and we can expect the track to dumb-down even further

I imagine that popular American race tracks like Trestle Bike Park, Fontana, Sea Otter, etc will continue this downward trend in the technical aspects of the sport.

bike park solution: new trail rating: triple black diamond.

jonKranked said:

bike park solution: new trail rating: triple black diamond.

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How about rating them Penelope Black Diamond? That they'd be rated XXX and black diamond at the same time... No groms allowed!

bobsten said:

I have not been able to put this thought into words, thank you.

We've definitely seen the taming of trails here in Seattle. The famous Duthie Mountain Bike Park received dramatic changes to the nature of its trails - many of the "XC" trails had roots removed and trails re-routed to lengthen and provide "flow". Additionally, one of the "gravity trails" was completely re-designed as a "flow-jump trail" because it was deemed "too dangerous".

I read an argument from one of the trail crew stating that the upkeep of new "flow section(s)" is less time consuming when compared to the repair time required for the traditional root-filled sections.

While I can understand the frustration, this question comes to mind - How do we make better riders when the trails being constantly tamed down?

This subject is extremely apparent in the gravity scene in the NW.

The pro track on Mt. Hood Skibowl recently saw the taming of its infamous rock traverse. The volunteer trail crew was directed to "make it more friendly"; this resulted in the removal of several large rocks throughout the section of trail.

The implication of this re-work, will result in the following:
1. Riders will now navigate the course at even higher speeds, increasing the magnitude of injury should an incident occur
2. Cat 1 girls will continue to complain about the rough course
3. The taming-snowball has started and we can expect the track to dumb-down even further

I imagine that popular American race tracks like Trestle Bike Park, Fontana, Sea Otter, etc will continue this downward trend in the technical aspects of the sport.

Click to expand...

We are constantly dealing with under-skilled, road-oriented MTB riders (the kind of guy who rides a 29er MTB with Ultegra cassette and a narrow (???) handlebar) down here, complaining about the trails. "They are too technical" they say... I'm not going to deny I've cracked a few ribs and a collarbone there, but I don't blame the trails. I blame my momentary lack of reason and sense of self preservation.

I mean, we're not talking about a mountain bike park here, these trails have a maximum difference of maybe 100ft between their highest and their lowest spots... Still, rooty sections seem to put out of their heads a lot of newcomers. I still remember when I started building those trails with a bunch of friends and a hi-ten 18sp, rigid fork bike,20 years ago... Now I have to stand rants about how that off camber mud covered turn almost made a rookie fall off his brand-new 29er 30-speed carbon rig...

Bringing more people into the sport isn't about making it easier for them, it's about teaching them to progress at their own pace. I can ride several trails down here in total darkness (and in fact we've done that many times, thanks to the early sunsets in winter and a sh*itload of fog), but that's because I was born to MTB in those trails. Learning the trails takes time, and ain't no way to jump those steps.

DH Dad said:

So does anyone think the change in handlebar width over the past 10 years has anything to do with trails getting wider? I rode some old trails (first rode them in 1990) the other day and the 28" wide Easton Haven bars actually couldn't physically fit through some sections. Luckily I was going slow at the time as the bars wedged between the two trees and I stopped and had to yank the bike back out. Just another random thought. I believe when I first rode these trails bars were typically about 20.5" wide and 23-24" bars were for DH.

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That's an east coast, deciduous tree, often-logged situation.

On the other half of the US, the trees are generally spacer farther apart naturally. Not so much the bushes and chaparral.

rpet said:

That's an east coast, deciduous tree, often-logged situation.

On the other half of the US, the trees are generally spacer farther apart naturally. Not so much the bushes and chaparral.

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Actually this happens to me in NorCal fairly frequently. Lots of tight spots, and over the years I see more and more marks from bar strikes. The wheelie/bar turn move comes in handy.

OGRipper said:

The wheelie/bar turn move comes in handy.

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So does proper trail routing.

You guys need a break from this thread... take 1:38min out of your day and have a laugh:

kidwoo said:

So does proper trail routing.

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Sure, but I just ride what other people build.

jonKranked said:

bike park solution: new trail rating: triple black diamond.

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No, BLOOD Diamond

IME (mostly CA/OR/WA riding, some CO/UT) the flow trail / smooth out the existing trail phenomenon has nothing to do with adoption of 29ers. in fact all the early adopter 29er riders I knew primarily liked them because of the climbing on loose and/or chunky rock on XC rides. As someone involved in a trail building association, I can tell you we get a lot of requests for flow trails and I know it's the same situation in other regions. At the local flow trail (easy car shuttle, or easy ride up a narrow paved road to the top) it seems sometimes that most of the riders are on older 6" konas etc and are the kind of people who, when they ride Northstar twice a year, spend all their time on Livewire (N* version of A-line). I know a couple of people who only got into mtn biking when they became aware of shuttle or lift trails with smoove berms and doubles.

From what I've seen in the last decade, a growth area in so-called mtn biking has been the 24h endurance races which brought in a lot of roadies and AFAIK these races almost always involve long sections of smooth fireroads/doubletrack. Might be connected to why so many regions have dumbed down / smoothed out existing singletrack. Again, I don't see any direct connection to wheelsize...more just a correlation to a demographic that isn't into chunky trails.

Years ago I was pissed when 15 mm thru axle was forced on the industry by fox/shimano when 20 was the better standard but I became slightly less pissed when I realized it was part of plan to reduce or eliminate open QR dropouts inherited from road bikes. That's sorta how I feel about 650b...I'm not sure another standard was needed but I can see already that it's going to limit the 29er wheel to certain types of bikes and frame sizes, which is a good thing.