Was it a bad idea to run my Specialized Butcher SX tires tubeless???

vikingboy · Jul 2, 2013

i'll follow this thread with interest. What pressures were you running when you set off? Any burping down the route?

no skid marks · Jul 2, 2013

Are they single ply?
If not, keep the tubeless set up, but save the Butchers for the rear. My dual ply butchers seems as reliable or better than my Minions.

Electric_City · Jul 2, 2013

I ran Nevigals tubeless on my Syncros ds32's for 3 years with a burp here or there, but no significant loss. The tires always needed air before a ride it seemed. When I changed to Panaracer Rampage 2.3 the nightmares began. When the first one finally seated after about an hour of trying with 3 of us. I only went to 20psi and shook it around. It was on the floor for 2 minutes and BOOM! Stans everywhere and the tire was a foot away from the rim. The tires fit VERY loose. My Nevi's could come off without levers too, but these things wouldn't even sit on the beads. Two weeks after mounting the Rampage I was riding Moosic, a real rocky place. BOOM! Tire blows off. Stuck a tube in it. A week later I'm blasting down Blueberry at Moosic same outcome but on a strait away without rocks. I went back to Kendas and even though they're loose, I haven't had an issue. Yet...

I think that the ghetto tubeless way with a tube sliced might work for your riding style better that the Stans way. EC

vikingboy · Jul 2, 2013

ive run my hillbilly DH tubeless for a year and never had any issues. Im just about to try a pair of Butcher SX tubless and will let you know how I get on too. Probably circa 25psi +/- 3 I'm guessing. 240lb rider kitted up and 2.3 tyres.

Kanye West · Jul 2, 2013

I'm removing the Butchers from my bike. I rolled a tire off the rim this weekend 1 min after I had just put 30psi in the tube...and the tube was still inflated!! Whole left side of the tire was off the rim with the tube flopping around like a big tumor. A minute later the tube exploded on its own (probably got scraped). This was with an EX721 rim. Apparently that rim causes quite a problem with the Specialized tires. These are pretty new tires too. Less than 5 fairly easy runs in on them.

Guess I'm gonna bite the pillow and go Maxxis again...ugh.

slyfink · Jul 2, 2013

#1, what rims?

#2, I think you'll find a fairly consistent opinion on here, that unless you go with a proven UST rim (Mavic 823) and a stiff, solid sidewall (proper DH casing) tire, that tubeless isn't great for "aggressive gravity" riding.

What you described sounds to me like where the limits of tubeless are (steep, fast, hard landings, high-g corners).

For me, that type of riding is done with dual-ply tires and tubes. end of story. for me.

yd35 · Jul 2, 2013

I think the problem may be your tires. The SX tires are great in theory because the 1.5 ply is supposedly tough enough but still considerably lighter. The light aspect is true enough, but I just find that the casing doesn't stand up to aggressive riding in rocky conditions. I tried SX Butchers and Clutches, and was initially thrilled because they have the same gripping characteristics and are way lighter, but I eventually tore huge gashes in the tire or blew up the sidewalls on each tire. And this is like after 2 days of resort riding. I've had zero problems with Butcher DH tires or any Maxxis DH tire, and I run everything tubeless.

Beef Supreme · Jul 2, 2013

slyfink said:
#2, I think you'll find a fairly consistent opinion on here, that unless you go with a proven UST rim (Mavic 823) and a stiff, solid sidewall (proper DH casing) tire, that tubeless isn't great for "aggressive gravity" riding.

I heard tubes will give you the Aids. You don't want the Aids.

It makes my brain hurt every time I hear "fits really loose" and it isn't followed by "threw in a tube."

kidwoo · Jul 2, 2013

Wait, you've got a tire with multiple holes, and that's blown off the rim a few times, and you're asking if you should keep using it?

Fvck no!

Throw that thing in the trash. You're going to kill yourself.

frorider · Jul 2, 2013

^^^ this.

The fact alone that they fit loosely on your rims is an issue.

I have a gigantic '2.5' speshial ed chunder SX on a dt 600 rim with rubber Stan's strip. A bitch to get on there but has never burped.

Kanye West · Jul 2, 2013

Hacktastic said:
I'm removing the Butchers from my bike. I rolled a tire off the rim this weekend 1 min after I had just put 30psi in the tube...and the tube was still inflated!! Whole left side of the tire was off the rim with the tube flopping around like a big tumor. A minute later the tube exploded on its own (probably got scraped). This was with an EX721 rim. Apparently that rim causes quite a problem with the Specialized tires. These are pretty new tires too. Less than 5 fairly easy runs in on them.

Guess I'm gonna bite the pillow and go Maxxis again...ugh.

I should specify that my issue was with the DH casing, not the SX casing. I didn't know what their designations were until I looked into it.

Beef Supreme · Jul 2, 2013

kail said:
You guys have convinced me to go back to tubes -- at least until I can get tighter-fitting tires with burlier sidewalls!

You probably want to bin the tire once it has blown off. Don't run it on the front at least.

OGRipper · Jul 2, 2013

Surprised no one has asked - how big/heavy are you?

vikingboy · Jul 2, 2013

205lbs - its in his post above....

kidwoo · Jul 2, 2013

Beef Supreme said:
You probably want to bin the tire once it has blown off. Don't run it on the front at least.

Yeah trash that thing. Once a tire blows off that means it has stretched at the bead.

Get some dh tires.

landcruiser · Jul 2, 2013

Sorry to hear about your crash. I would definitely return to tubes in your case. Neither the Roval DH rims nor SX tires are endorsed for tubeless. Trying to make either work in a tubeless setup will always be a gamble, more so when using both together.

How big are these holes you're getting? Are we talking pin-pricks or bigger rock gashes?

- Specialized Tire Engineer

kidwoo · Jul 2, 2013

landcruiser said:
Sorry to hear about your crash. I would definitely return to tubes in your case. Neither the Roval DH rims nor SX tires are endorsed for tubeless. Trying to make either work in a tubeless setup will always be a gamble, more so when using both together.

How big are these holes you're getting? Are we talking pin-pricks or bigger rock gashes?

- Specialized Tire Engineer

Oh good. You showed up.

Where are the hard compound tires dammit?

Pslide · Jul 2, 2013

The problem is your bead hooks. Specialized tires don't need them.

(http://flowmountainbike.com/2012/11/specialized-ditch-the-hook/)

I jest.

kidwoo · Jul 2, 2013

No just ust rims that aren't made by stans.

Any DOWNHILL tire will work tubeless with sealant.

yd35 · Jul 2, 2013

kidwoo said:
No just ust rims that aren't made by stans.

Any DOWNHILL tire will work tubeless with sealant.

What he said. UST versions of tires are pretty flimsy. I've had terrible luck (torn sidewalls galore) with Maxxis UST tires.

landcruiser · Jul 2, 2013

kidwoo said:
Oh good. You showed up.

Where are the hard compound tires dammit?

Still in prototype phase.

kail said:
The holes (gashes, really) I'm seeing are 1/8 - 1/4" long. The Stan's compound seals them up if I rotate the gash to the ground. We don't have thorns where I ride, so these are caused by hitting jagged rocks.

I talked to the guys at a local bike shop and they recommended that I really need UST tires to be safe running tubeless.

Okay. If you're cutting through SX tires, the next step up would be DH casings. You would also gain some better retention during flats.

I agree with everyone else though that UST tires don't make as big a difference as the rim does. UST tires don't necessarily fit any tighter than non-UST.

I'm not a big fan of tubeless on big bikes, but if I wanted to run tubeless with aggressive tires, I'd try our DH tires with 823 or similar rims. That's the only combo I've usually heard of having worked for others (still no guarantee that it will work for you).

kidwoo · Jul 2, 2013

landcruiser said:
if I wanted to run tubeless with aggressive tires, I'd try our DH tires with 823 or similar rims.

I would too but running a sticky rear tire in dry ass california/arizona/nevada/new mexico/montana/idaho/southern oregon/eastern washington is a waste of money and momentum.

It's like every other tire company just sits there and goes 'hey maxxis, here's another one who's money we don't want'

You guys make some good tires. Now just make ONE that rolls fast.

Kanye West · Jul 2, 2013

kidwoo said:
It's like every other tire company just sits there and goes 'hey maxxis, here's another one who's money we don't want'.

No kidding. It can't be THAT hard to match their performance and not infringe on any IP.

If someone made a High Roller 3C knockoff that didn't cost a kidney and had the same casings, I'd buy a ton.

Some company has got to realize they could rake in 2-5x more sales with a bit slimmer margin on what is essentially the same tire, and make more money at the end of the day.

davet · Jul 2, 2013

Using Stans Strips? Some tire/rim combos require a few layers of tape under the strip to fit and seal well.

kidwoo · Jul 2, 2013

Hacktastic said:
No kidding. It can't be THAT hard to match their performance and not infringe on any IP.

If someone made a High Roller 3C knockoff that didn't cost a kidney and had the same casings, I'd buy a ton.

Some company has got to realize they could rake in 2-5x more sales with a bit slimmer margin on what is essentially the same tire, and make more money at the end of the day.

I'd be happy if anyone else just still made a damn 60a dh tire.

landcruiser · Jul 2, 2013

kidwoo said:
You guys make some good tires. Now just make ONE that rolls fast.

Done, but I'm not sure you're going to like it...

Hacktastic said:
No kidding. It can't be THAT hard to match their performance and not infringe on any IP.

If someone made a High Roller 3C knockoff that didn't cost a kidney and had the same casings, I'd buy a ton.

Some company has got to realize they could rake in 2-5x more sales with a bit slimmer margin on what is essentially the same tire, and make more money at the end of the day.

We can build them. We have the technology. We just need a couple thousand more of your friends to demand them in addition to (not instead of) the DH tires we already sell.

I really do understand where you're coming from, but we just haven't seen enough market demand yet. DH tires for us are not a "if you build it, they will ride it" category. We have to listen to our racers, dealers and customers to figure out how much demand there really is before we can produce a new model.

kidwoo · Jul 2, 2013

landcruiser said:
Done, but I'm not sure you're going to like it...

We can build them. We have the technology. We just need a couple thousand more of your friends to demand them in addition to (not instead of) the DH tires we already sell.

I really do understand where you're coming from, but we just haven't seen enough market demand yet. DH tires for us are not a "if you build it, they will ride it" category. We have to listen to our racers, dealers and customers to figure out how much demand there really is before we can produce a new model.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you guys don't even make an sx/genuinely tough casing/UST tire that is a 60a durometer. DH or not, this sticky tire bidness has it's place but it has become a little too all encompassing. A hard compound butcher would do (let me see if I can say this without puking) the emerging enduro market some good.

And for FWIW, almost everyone I know runs a hard compound dh tire in the rear on their big bikes. They all have the same logo on them not because of any kind of brand loyalty, but because there's only one damn company making them.They'll sell, gwin just needs to win a damn race. I know just making something good doesn't mean it sells (see chunder tread for reference), but that's partially on your marketing department's shoulders.

But you got me curious. What's the fast rolling dh casing tire you make that is fast because it's a hard compound, not because it doesn't have dick for center knobs?

Beef Supreme · Jul 2, 2013

kidwoo said:
It's like every other tire company just sits there and goes 'hey maxxis, here's another one who's money we don't want'

Nobody gives a sh!t about making tires that perform well in Afghanistan.

Kanye West · Jul 2, 2013

Beef Supreme said:
Nobody gives a sh!t about making tires that perform well in Afghanistan.

Usually China from what I recall. Most are sourcing from the Cheng-Shin factory at something like $6/unit.

kidwoo · Jul 2, 2013

Beef Supreme said:
Nobody gives a sh!t about making tires that perform well in Afghanistan.

Fontana race locals disagree :rofl:

gemini2k · Jul 2, 2013

landcruiser said:
Done, but I'm not sure you're going to like it...

We can build them. We have the technology. We just need a couple thousand more of your friends to demand them in addition to (not instead of) the DH tires we already sell.

I really do understand where you're coming from, but we just haven't seen enough market demand yet. DH tires for us are not a "if you build it, they will ride it" category. We have to listen to our racers, dealers and customers to figure out how much demand there really is before we can produce a new model.

The demand for a Maxxis 3C DH caliber tire at ~$50 MRSP, $30 wholesale would be through the ROOF! People run DH tires MUCH longer than they probably should because they cost more than moto tires. If high end DH tires were $50 retail then people would be replacing them 2-3 times as often I imagine.

Economies of scale or not, I still can't wrap my head around the fact that my rear maxxis DH tire costs as much or more than my maxxis rear moto tire which has about 10 pounds more rubber and steel and must cost 2-3 times in shipping costs alone just to get it overseas.

There's NO way higher production volumes account for that difference. There aren't THAT many quantities of a given moto tire model being purchased compared to a given 3C DH Maxxis tire.

wydopen · Jul 2, 2013

the difference is a maxxis dh tire works...maxxis mx tires suck..

dh tires arnt more expensive than a dunlop or bridgestone...

gemini2k said:
The demand for a Maxxis 3C DH caliber tire at ~$50 MRSP, $30 wholesale would be through the ROOF! People run DH tires MUCH longer than they probably should because they cost more than moto tires. If high end DH tires were $50 retail then people would be replacing them 2-3 times as often I imagine.

Economies of scale or not, I still can't wrap my head around the fact that my rear maxxis DH tire costs as much or more than my maxxis rear moto tire which has about 10 pounds more rubber and steel and must cost 2-3 times in shipping costs alone just to get it overseas.

There's NO way higher production volumes account for that difference. There aren't THAT many quantities of a given moto tire model being purchased compared to a given 3C DH Maxxis tire.

Kanye West · Jul 2, 2013

wydopen said:
the difference is a maxxis dh tire works...maxxis mx tires suck..

dh tires arnt more expensive than a dunlop or bridgestone...

All the moto tires are basically priced the same these days, +/- 5-10% at MSRP. The high end Maxxis DH tires are in the same ballpark as them.

iRider · Jul 3, 2013

gemini2k said:
The demand for a Maxxis 3C DH caliber tire at ~$50 MRSP, $30 wholesale would be through the ROOF! People run DH tires MUCH longer than they probably should because they cost more than moto tires. If high end DH tires were $50 retail then people would be replacing them 2-3 times as often I imagine.

Intense tires maybe?

And here is some science about rolling resistance and puncture resistance:

http://mag41.com/issues/issue-one-int/ (caution: 40 mb pdf download)

Slater · Jul 5, 2013

I'd like to re-affirm sentiments already echoed in this thread.

Despite reading on RM not to run the Butcher SX tubeless, with people saying that it is dangerous, I decided to do it anyways. Well, it didn't work out. I blew the rear off the rim at 35psi landing a little sideways on a hip jump. "Ok, it won't work on the rear, but the front should be fine". Wrong again. The very next ride I overshot a double that had a berm after it so I was leaned over a bit. Blew the front at 35psi off and ate ****. Now I'm out for a week or two.

Learn from me, unless you're riding mellow AM and staying on the ground, don't run SX casings tubeless!!

saruti · Jul 7, 2013

had a Butcher SX on front "ghetto tubeless" for a year. never had any problems....
I think using cut tube for tubeless is the best solution.

Was it a bad idea to run my Specialized Butcher SX tires tubeless???

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