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A Serious conversation about offseason workouts

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
117
San Francisco
The vast majority of us in here, are not as fast as we'd like to think, nor are the majority in here professional athletes, and have to deal with daily drudgery that are our jobs / lives.

The fact is that "off season training" for the majority of us just means that you get yourself in a reasonable to good condition - but we will never really need to push our fitness and bodies to the limit, like Gee / Minaar etc. I will wager a bet that no one in here will "lose time" because they did some "classic lifting" during the off-season.

This in turn means that a good mix of eating well, eating lots, sleeping well, sleeping lots, lifting heavy sh!t and mix it up with some interesting cardio-esque training (i.e: Kettlebells, Crossfit, a bit of crosstrainer etc) will do wonders for most of us.
Bingo. Let's be real. Almost no amateurs here are strong enough, or fit enough to where do some SUPER specific program is going to make a real difference. Just hitting the gym, doing the basics, and doing road biking or some cardio is going to get you to 95% of what you're realistically capable of doing.
 

marshalolson

Turbo Monkey
May 25, 2006
1,770
519
man, this thread is funny.

you want/need to develop-
1. fast twitch muscles
2. coordination/reaction time
3. balance
4. core strength

gross over-simplification, but muscles are built with protein and consume carbohydrates. get tons of protein in immediately after workouts, and eat carbohydrates the night before. or just workout everyday, eat a protein-rich diet for every meal, and limit lots of carbs to dinner.

exercise, hard, every single day. it does not need to be some super expensive trendy workout place. swing a hammer, run a chainsaw, go running, ride your bike, throw a medicine ball against a wall.

just exercise. hard, for an extended period of time. and when you do exercise, do it in intervals. 5 mins as hard as you can, with a 5 minute break, and then 5min hard again.
 
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SuspectDevice

Turbo Monkey
Aug 23, 2002
4,157
359
Roanoke, VA
Bingo. Let's be real. Almost no amateurs here are strong enough, or fit enough to where do some SUPER specific program is going to make a real difference.

to be quite honest, it would make a huge difference.

Sport Science is pretty phenomenal these days.

Even a ****ty coach or CSCS who meet the basic threshold for licensure would move a mid-pack racer a hell of a lot higher on the results list.

Proper off-season comprehensive preparation includes a lot more than basic physical preparation. The mental and technical skills you practice and develop in the off-season are invaluable, someone who has never prepared adequately for competition would reap innumerable benefits and shave seconds off of their times.

Thorough, structured periodic training works, and works very well, as long as the coach is competent and thorough and the athlete is honest, self-reflective and communicative.

It doesn't take any more time than jerking off without direction or goals either.


also:
[
I]
Go

Build

Some

Trails
[/I]
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator

No I build good trails, not mess up good trails with switchbacks (a climbing turn is still a switchback), miniscule grade reversals and things that induce braking and reduce sight lines.

Even building those will still give you some exercise though ;)


And yes I'm harboring an enormous amount of resentment regarding what happened to butcher.*grumble*grumble*
 
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jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,562
24,182
media blackout
No I build good trails, not mess up good trails with switchbacks (a climbing turn is still a switchback), miniscule grade reversals and things that induce braking and reduce sight lines.

Even building those will still give you some exercise though ;)


And yes I'm harboring an enormous amount of resentment regarding what happened to butcher.*grumble*grumble*
Tell us how you really feel about speed checks
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,647
1,116
NORCAL is the hizzle
No I build good trails, not mess up good trails with switchbacks (a climbing turn is still a switchback), miniscule grade reversals and things that induce braking and reduce sight lines.

Even building those will still give you some exercise though ;)


And yes I'm harboring an enormous amount of resentment regarding what happened to butcher.*grumble*grumble*
You're not the only one unhappy about it. The Stewardship's hands are tied by a bunch of BS up there. Things would be a lot different if they didn't have to be all legit and stuff.

Anyhoo...back to our regularly-scheduled trading of information about topics better researched elsewhere. ;)
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,852
9,557
AK
Yes and no. Simple lifting heavy sh!t is better than nothing but it builds strength more than endurance and we need endurance. Strength is only needed when you are really small. Also you don't have to be racing on the top level to benefit from a high level of fitness. A friend worked on his fitness over the winter and he jumped 30-40 places just thanks to that (since when we do stops we ride similar pace). You can also ride A LOT more and that benefits EVERY rider. I don't remember the last time I thought "gosh I wish I was stronger" and I'm only a bit over 160lb at 5'10'' while every year no matter how fit I am I wish I had better muscular endurance either in my arms, back or legs.
Mountain biking is very much about short anaerobic bursts and repeatedly recovering from those sprints. People don't bonk usually because their endurance isn't good enough, they bonk because they can't recover from the anaerobic efforts. Whether it's XC or downhill, it's the same. The only difference for XC is that you do need to be decent at the aerobic stuff, able to do long efforts and such, not be carrying around excess weight, be efficient with your energy and water, but it's still those short bursts or steeper sections where you go anaerobic that will kill you IMO. This doesn't mean strength training to build massive bulk, but just "riding more" or "running" really doesn't do that much, you hit a wall pretty quick. I've been rock-climbing for over a year and working on core strength and lifting moderate weight for a few years now and the results are dramatic, even when I spent a significant amount of time off the bike.
 
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LMN

Chimp
Jun 11, 2012
1
0
Winter training for downhill is not much that different than winter training for XC.

A four minute effort is primarily an aerobic effort. The fitness demands for 4 minutes are a lot closer to that of 1.5hr race than they are to that of a 1 minute race. If you look at running, people who specialize in the mile can go on to win marathons, but they will never win a 400m race.

What should you do in the winter? That is a big topic. I would break it into two periods. General and Specific. General is the winter and specific is the spring.

Here is a brief idea of what you might work on during the General preparation period. (November to March)
-Aerobic capacity. Steady rides on your rode or XC bike to build your aerobic capacity. This is one the most important things you can do. The fitness gains will allow you to train harder and longer when you are doing specific downhill training.

-Speed skills. You need to be able to produce high power at a variety of cadences. Working on leg speed so you can sprint out turns is a key part of winter training.

-Strength. You can go the gym. However, the trend in most sports is for athletes to move away from traditional weights. If you are time limited I would skip the gym. The gain from it are marginal at best.

What might a good training week like?

Monday: OFF
Tuesday: Trainer ride 15 minute w.p. 10x(30s high leg speed, 30s easy). 4x4 minutes @best effort with 4 minutes rest. 15 minutes steady. 15 minutes @80% effort. 15 minute w.d.
Wednesday: 2-3hr steady aerobic activity.
Thursday: 2hr aerobic activity. Include 3x8 minutes @90% effort with 4 minutes recovery.
Friday: OFF
Saturday: 3hr choice aerobic activity. Include 10x30s of high leg speed, if on a bike.
Sunday: 2hr choice aerobic activity.

Add some gym there if you want, but a good rule is never skip a ride to go to the gym.

Do something like that consistently through the winter, follow it up with some specific work on the DH bike in the spring and you will be ready to kick some arse.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
Is it only me or is the "You don't need pro training" the same thing people said a few years ago about sub 65 head angles when the sentence "you don't need pro geometry" was tossed around.


@Jm_ I agree. I think my posts are just less structured. Just riding your bike will give you something but the plateou will come fast.
 

supercow

Monkey
Feb 18, 2009
969
128
Mountain biking is very much about short anaerobic bursts and repeatedly recovering from those sprints.
Kettlebell training is excellent for this.

Hammering out 300 reps (fast as I can) of something like this has done wonders for my active recovery,
do this 3 times without rest, use the lesser demanding ones as active rest:

20 x Swing
20 x One arm swing (10 each arm)
20 x Clean and press
20 x Overhead snatch
20 x Goblet Squat

The above is my "cardio" days, along with some swimming. Really want to give crossfit a go still, but don;t have the motivation yet.

Rest is a 3 days split of traditional stronglifts and a tiny bit of isolation (for teh ladiez)

Day1: Legs
Day2: Back / Bi / Trap
Day3: Chest/Tri/Shoulders
 
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acair422

Monkey
Aug 20, 2003
552
2
ah finally some real responses! Do you feel KBs help with grip strength at all? I know olympic lifts are often suggested for that type of thing, just would like to actually arrive at the mtn in the spring in some type of shape, and not be dying at 11,000 ft (top of the chair out here)
 

Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,740
470
What you meant to say.
No, not really. 99% of people taking BJJ in particular are not "trained killers". They're glorified high school wrestlers who usually have a coke habit, and didn't actually do wrestling in high school. I've been around those sports enough to know that much.

Kazlx has the right idea.
 

kazlx

Patches O'Houlihan
Aug 7, 2006
6,985
1,957
Tustin, CA
99.9% of people taking BJJ just think they are badasses and would still probably get whooped in a brawl. Case in point: Tapout.

Get a trials bike. Or a bmx bike. Ride those to add skills.
 
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atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,552
77
teedotohdot
instead of kettlebells in gyms people should sling buckets of dirt on their local trails, be a lot more useful.
And how do we do that out east, when the ground is frozen solid and covered in snow, while out west your dirt made from gods fecal matter is still loamy in spots, and you can still ride?

Or wait, does the ice and snow and frozen dirt add to the workout? Mind, blown...... :shocked:


Those hating on taking up another sport to be a better, stronger, and more multifaceted person are the epitome of ignorant. This is a thread about working out, and there's only good to come from working out with a good program whether it be the gym, the mats, or a sport like indoor climbing. They will all help you ride better and reduce injury, and let's be honest, most of you are much weaker than the average guy who plays a team sport, competes in combat sports, or has FUN being involved in multiple activities like shredding pow or even XC skiing. Probably a lot weaker than any DH'er who takes his/her fitness seriously. Funny how every sport that's existed since the gladiator days has fitness programs, but as soon as it's recommended here it's all hogwash...:think: No wonder the local lifts look like someone took the customers out of a fast food joint, threw them in PJ's and gave them expensive bikes. Seriously.... :rofl:

Also remember that muscle helps prevent injuries as well. Both with regards to protecting from impacts, and preventing hyperextension of joints. Keep strong, be limber, don't take it too seriously and have fun. Is it that hard?
 
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atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,552
77
teedotohdot
99.9% of people taking BJJ just think they are badasses and would still probably get whooped in a brawl. Case in point: Tapout.

Get a trials bike. Or a bmx bike. Ride those to add skills.
When I was a white belt, I never lost to a white belt.
When I trained MT, I got beat up regularly in class.

Nobody thought they were badass, except the white belts. Since it's obvious you haven't experienced the intensity a training session brings (your experience at 10 years old at a mcdojo doesn't count), I herby challenge you to go to the nearest MT gym and try and make it past the 30 minute warm up.
 

Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,740
470
Since it's obvious you haven't experienced the intensity a training session brings (your experience at 10 years old at a mcdojo doesn't count), I herby challenge you to go to the nearest MT gym and try and make it past the 30 minute warm up.
Oh martial arts in general are an AWESOME workout. Actually, there's very little that is a better all-around workout if you train somewhere decent. Just the all around douchey-ness that comes with BJJ is pretty much intolerable, and good cause to consider any other martial art form.
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,552
77
teedotohdot
Oh martial arts in general are an AWESOME workout. Actually, there's very little that is a better all-around workout if you train somewhere decent. Just the all around douchey-ness that comes with BJJ is pretty much intolerable, and good cause to consider any other martial art form.
Yea, you're right. It does attract a type of guy. That guy usually leaves after a few months when he realizes this isn't the gym and big muscles don't impress people as much as they think, and actually hinders their power (speed and strength).

That and there's no mirrors on the walls to flex into. So that hinders their progression.
 
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Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,740
470
Yea, you're right. It does attract a type of guy. That guy usually leaves after a few months when he realizes this isn't the gym and big muscles don't impress people as much as they think, and actually hinders their power (speed and strength).

That and there's no mirrors on the walls to flex into. So that hinders their progression.
Probably true. But most BJJ dojos are revolving doors of those types, and regardless of how permanent they are, that's still what the dojos mostly consist of.
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,552
77
teedotohdot
I believe that's usually the case. I picked a good one by me and most people were nice, but I can see how it does attract a less than stellar following, especially with the popularity of mma these days. For anyone here, I'd just try a few sessions of MT, because they have the hardest core workouts known to man. Plus it's actually quite fun and is a nice skill to have.
 
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Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,740
470
I believe that's usually the case. I picked a good one by me and most people were nice, but I can see how it does attract a less than stellar following, especially with the popularity of mma these days. For anyone here, I'd just try a few sessions of MT, because they have the hardest core workouts known to man. Plus it's actually quite fun and is a nice skill to have.
Agree about that. MT is awesome, and definitely one of the hardest physically.
 

kazlx

Patches O'Houlihan
Aug 7, 2006
6,985
1,957
Tustin, CA
When I was a white belt, I never lost to a white belt.
When I trained MT, I got beat up regularly in class.

Nobody thought they were badass, except the white belts. Since it's obvious you haven't experienced the intensity a training session brings (your experience at 10 years old at a mcdojo doesn't count), I herby challenge you to go to the nearest MT gym and try and make it past the 30 minute warm up.
Oh martial arts in general are an AWESOME workout. Actually, there's very little that is a better all-around workout if you train somewhere decent. Just the all around douchey-ness that comes with BJJ is pretty much intolerable, and good cause to consider any other martial art form.
That was pretty much my point. Never said it wasn't a good workout. I've actually worked out at a couple gyms, most recently Krav. Fun stuff and a good workout, but just had too much other stuff going on and something had to go.

Yea, you're right. It does attract a type of guy. That guy usually leaves after a few months when he realizes this isn't the gym and big muscles don't impress people as much as they think, and actually hinders their power (speed and strength).

That and there's no mirrors on the walls to flex into. So that hinders their progression.
It also doesn't help that I have been around the vicinity of Huntington Beach, which, for some reason, seems to be a nest of BJJ doucheness.
 

yopaulie

Monkey
Jun 4, 2009
165
7
NH
I used to do wind sprints on the dh bike in some big parking lot at work. Sprint an actual 100% for about a minute, rest for a minute by pedaling slowly and do it again for 15min. They SUCK but work and you can do them on your lunch break. Makes me glad I don't race anymore!
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,552
77
teedotohdot
That was pretty much my point. Never said it wasn't a good workout. I've actually worked out at a couple gyms, most recently Krav. Fun stuff and a good workout, but just had too much other stuff going on and something had to go.



It also doesn't help that I have been around the vicinity of Huntington Beach, which, for some reason, seems to be a nest of BJJ doucheness.
Yea, I'd imagine living there would affect ones opinion on it. I mean, it's Huntington beach, brah. You hear me bro? Do you even tan/lift/bulk/injectsteriods/have10stds, BRO? vomit. :rofl:
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
ah finally some real responses! Do you feel KBs help with grip strength at all? I know olympic lifts are often suggested for that type of thing, just would like to actually arrive at the mtn in the spring in some type of shape, and not be dying at 11,000 ft (top of the chair out here)
If you have some core strength I'd do grip specific exercises first. Right now my grip is a problem for me and I can't go up in weight in my deadlift because it's too weak. Though for biking you don't need grip strength. I have a weak grip and my forearms need a week of beat up bikepark riding to even start hurting.
 

JRogers

talks too much
Mar 19, 2002
3,785
1
Claremont, CA
Bingo. Let's be real. Almost no amateurs here are strong enough, or fit enough to where do some SUPER specific program is going to make a real difference. Just hitting the gym, doing the basics, and doing road biking or some cardio is going to get you to 95% of what you're realistically capable of doing.
I think I mostly agree. Maybe 95% is a bit high, but I see what you are saying. I think the most important thing is to eat right and do whatever it is that you can work hard at and do consistently.
 

kickstand

Turbo Monkey
Sep 18, 2009
3,441
392
Fenton, MI
I dont' have the funds to ski (unfortunately) and I cannot do crossfit as losing weight for me isn't an option (at 5'10 and 140lbs) so yes my diet needs work but in reality what I need to do this winter is add about 10-15lbs and a lot of overall strength to help with moving the bike through the rough stuff and gain endurance (given that race runs out here are 7min+)
what makes you think crossift will make you lose weight? your wegiht is determined by calories in and calories out, nothing more.

My offseason looks like this:

Snowboard
Chop wood.
2 Days per week Strength training (heavy 5x5 Squats, deads, bench, Pull ups/weighted pulls)
2 days per week high intensity interval training, Olympic lifts, "crossfit" like work outs, etc
Chop wood
Shovel snow
Run once a week.
Shovel more snow, and chop some wood.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
I think I mostly agree. Maybe 95% is a bit high, but I see what you are saying. I think the most important thing is to eat right and do whatever it is that you can work hard at and do consistently.
Yes and no. You can easily do a lot of effort and end up with a wrong training that gives you nothing for the summer. Did that for 2 seasons where I had too weak arms and strong legs or the other way around. I see a lot of people train a lot and end up with 50% of what they could have had if they did a dedicated training program. Yes of course sometimes your random winter activities work for you but that doesn work for all of us.
 
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daisycutter

Turbo Monkey
Apr 8, 2006
1,651
124
New York City
What off season? Plattekil has two inches of snow and is going to be open this weekend. It should be a blast and a good workout.:weee:
 
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jackalope

Mental acuity - 1%
Jan 9, 2004
7,596
5,894
in a single wide, cooking meth...
Damn, a lot of exceptionally bad information on this thread. No one has offered a complete training program which will yield real improvement - so allow me.


* Core strength - pretty easy actually. For 2 straight weeks, eat nothing but fried cheese stix and PF Changs. The subsequent epic constipation will require Herculean abdominal muscle efforts to discharge the petrified waste pellet. Expect an intensity and duration similar to that of a long birth labor (personally I do not recommend the submerged bathtub delivery method). Now the fun part, for the next 2 straight weeks, guzzle down liters of jager mixed with Clamato Bud-Lite every couple hours to incite violent and near constant vomiting. Then switch back to cheese & Changs, rinse, repeat, ad nauseum. I know it sounds a little extreme, but soon you will have abs that will be envy of even Anglo jeebus, Brian Lopes, and Chuck Norris (<--which may all be the same person btw).

* Legs and lower body - Again, this one is amazingly simple, but challenging nevertheless. High intensity twerking. Ten 20 minute sessions everyday is usually more than enough to build hip & leg strength as well as tone up the gluts. Add fanny packs with kettle balls for extra points.

* Hands/fingers - an oft overlooked area. First, build strength and power using the Charles Bronson "Mechanic" technique of breaking shot glasses with 2 fingers inside the glass. Sometimes it makes bartenders grumpy, but the chicks love it, and lets be real - no bouncer is gonna ask you to leave after such a display of digital domination. Next, you want to improve flexibility by throwing complex gang signs, and here's the kicker, keep them thrown for hours at a time. Yes, it does present challenges when operating iPhones and zippers, but it really does pay dividends down the road. Moar extra points for using this training method in the south side of Chicago.

* Cardio/general conditioning - Can't believe this hasn't mentioned already, but procure all the Tae Bo videos you can find on Ebay and get to work. Not only will Tae Bo get your pulmonary system in peak shape, you will be able to easily defeat masters of other inferior martial arts such MT, BJ, ATM, Tai Chi, hot yoga, Kung Fu, Feng shui, and Bonsai. Mix in some shake weights to add variety to Billy Blanks' somewhat dated workouts.

* Organic Body Armor Enhancement - a bit of a new training technique, but based on my results, it may the be the key to finishing in the upper 3rd of the Cat 2 class. First, when you're getting completely smashed on jager and clamato (as described in the core workout), start doing extreme parkour once your BAC is 0.20 or higher. This will be painful at first, but eventually you will start developing huge masses of scar tissue and dessicated hematomas, and there isn't a rock garden in all of Europe (or even the east coast) that won't feel like a foam pit when you go OTB at 35 mph. If you're lacking confidence to jump down 3 stories to a cement staircase, start doing obscene amounts of coke, which not only will give you that extra boost of self esteem, but eventually it will burn through your nasal septum, which in turn will allow for more efficient air delivery when you're on the pedals hard. Think of it as a K&N air filter for your nose. Another advantage of heavy alcohol consumption is the ever expanding and hardening of your liver. In a couple years, you'll basically have a 50 lb internal flak jacket which will make your abdominal cavity completely impervious to any blunt force trauma. In fact, I earn money on the side by working Samuari birthday parties as a pinata. You've never seen so many broken bokkens.

Hopefully this will help, and it's probably worth mentioning that I've taught Rich Houseman and others in the biz everything they know.
 
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