Mini-DH fork - Pike vs. XFusion Sweep

supercow · Jan 9, 2014

Not that its one of thw options, but the Bos Deville + ccdba on the Spitty makes it an incredible bike.
No 140mm travel frame has the right to be that fast on descents.

Foxbat · Jan 9, 2014

It seems that every mtb website and publication is very averse to making any concrete judgments on a fork shootout. I'm guessing their worried about being blacklisted by manufacturers.

I'm in the same boat as I look for a replacement for my Fox Float 34. A fork with real low/high speed compression and rebound damping adjustments for 650B is nonexistent in a market of dumbed down forks. Right now I think the closest things are the Pike and possibly the Manitou Mattoc since there is Fox hasn't released a 650B 36. I'm curious to hear others opinions.

Foxbat · Jan 9, 2014

I totally forgot about BOS since their availability in the US has been challenging. What is the price for a Deville now that there is a US distributor?

SuboptimusPrime · Jan 9, 2014

I've got a pike on the front of my spitfire with CCDBA and I'll just say that my pike is noticeably better than the 36 Van RC2 it replaced. Same stiffness, a ****load lighter and it finally does what I have long wanted my fork to do; absorb trail chatter nicely yet stay up in its travel.

I cannot compare to the Bos or the XFusion never having ridden either, but I can say that the Pike and CCDBA seem to match up very nicely on my spitfire as they both have a similar plush yet controlled feel.

Dogboy · Jan 9, 2014

SuboptimusPrime said:
I cannot compare to the Bos or the XFusion never having ridden either, but I can say that the Pike and CCDBA seem to match up very nicely on my spitfire as they both have a similar plush yet controlled feel.

I have the same combo on a SB66 and agree that they are very well matched. A really solid improvement over the 34 Float/Float that they replaced.

gemini2k · Jan 10, 2014

How do you like you ccdbair? I've got one on my rune, and I'm horribly dissapointed with it, on all levels. I've tried a huge range of settings too. I'm swapping it out to drive that manitou swinger air, if I don't like that, then onto the Xfusion air shock. I'm pretty stoked on the vengance fork though. It'll be interesting to see how it feels after a rebuild.

Optimax150 · Jan 10, 2014

Foxbat said:
I totally forgot about BOS since their availability in the US has been challenging. What is the price for a Deville now that there is a US distributor?

http://www.pricepoint.com/Components/Forks/Suspension-Forks/?page_no=1&fq=353_1_category:1018

Almost ordered one, but wrong time due to financial reasons.

norbar · Jan 10, 2014

gemini2k said:
How do you like you ccdbair? I've got one on my rune, and I'm horribly dissapointed with it, on all levels. I've tried a huge range of settings too. I'm swapping it out to drive that manitou swinger air, if I don't like that, then onto the Xfusion air shock. I'm pretty stoked on the vengance fork though. It'll be interesting to see how it feels after a rebuild.

Talked to Keith at banshee and the CC guys? You have the correct can size? I didn't try it on a rune but it's way better than any air shock I have tried.

supercow · Jan 10, 2014

Indeed, sounds like something's not all there.
Takes a little while to bed in, but the shock is fantastic.

supercow · Jan 10, 2014

DP fail

Mo(n)arch · Jan 10, 2014

supercow said:
DP fail

You were in the middle? :brows:

SuboptimusPrime · Jan 10, 2014

gemini2k said:
How do you like you ccdbair? I've got one on my rune, and I'm horribly dissapointed with it, on all levels. I've tried a huge range of settings too. I'm swapping it out to drive that manitou swinger air, if I don't like that, then onto the Xfusion air shock. I'm pretty stoked on the vengance fork though. It'll be interesting to see how it feels after a rebuild.

What specific problems have you had? Agree that a call to the folks at CC is in order, maybe send it in for them to check over.

FlipSide · Jan 10, 2014

Foxbat said:
It seems that every mtb website and publication is very averse to making any concrete judgments on a fork shootout. I'm guessing their worried about being blacklisted by manufacturers.

I'm in the same boat as I look for a replacement for my Fox Float 34. A fork with real low/high speed compression and rebound damping adjustments for 650B is nonexistent in a market of dumbed down forks. Right now I think the closest things are the Pike and possibly the Manitou Mattoc since there is Fox hasn't released a 650B 36. I'm curious to hear others opinions.

You can PUSH your 34. They now offer an upgrade that replaces all the CTD stuff for High-Speed & Low-Speed adjustment.

slyfink · Jan 10, 2014

I have the Pike and my buddy has the 650b version of the X-Fusion Slant (came on his Rocky Mountain Altitude). I've had mine longer (ridden 4.5 months), and have managed to blow it up once. He's had his essentially for one riding trip to BC for a week. Which is sort of like a month and a half of riding back home! We both have equal grins on our faces at the end of the ride.

I was going to refer you to that Bike Magic comparison... the guy at the end said he'd keep the Slant given the choice, even though performance wise they were almost identical, he doesn't explain why.

I'd suggest that it comes down to ease of service and/or who can fix/service it for you should you need it.

jonKranked · Jan 10, 2014

norbar said:
Talked to Keith at banshee and the CC guys? You have the correct can size? I didn't try it on a rune but it's way better than any air shock I have tried.

knowing that g2k is kind of a massive dude, this would be my first idea too

Steve M · Jan 10, 2014

jonKranked said:
knowing that g2k is kind of a massive dude, this would be my first idea too

Air can size is not really related to the weight of the rider, just to the leverage rate of the frame, but in any case it would be worth checking.

jonKranked · Jan 10, 2014

Steve M said:
Air can size is not really related to the weight of the rider, just to the leverage rate of the frame, but in any case it would be worth checking.

if he was running too high a pressure to get the proper sag and prevent it from bottoming out, then it could certainly be a factor

kidwoo · Jan 10, 2014

slyfink said:
I have the Pike ................ and have managed to blow it up once.

Define 'blow up' purty please.

cowman · Jan 10, 2014

jonKranked said:
if he was running too high a pressure to get the proper sag and prevent it from bottoming out, then it could certainly be a factor

Agreed. I'd imagine if air can size affects the progressiveness of the spring rate, that it would have at least some influence on how much sag is achieved at a certain air pressure.

slyfink · Jan 10, 2014

kidwoo said:
Define 'blow up' purty please.

I'm not sure what happened exactly, all I know is that the distributor replaced two cartridges (I'm assuming rebound and compression). How it happened was that I was night riding, and I took a little kicker slightly too fast and slightly off kilter from my usual position. I dead-sailored, and landed rear wheel first, and when my front wheel came down, it bottomed out hard. Hard enough to pinch flat my tubeless setup and loose all air. After I put a tube in and went to get going again, I noticed that my rebound damping wasn't working and the adjuster knob had no more "clicks" to it. Sent it in, they replaced all that needed replacing, and I haven't been able to ride since. well, I rode last night, but it was 1.4°F out, so not much was moving in the fork... and the surface was beautifully smooth, snowshoe-packed snow.

92SE-R · Jan 10, 2014

What about upcoming mattoc? I love my dorado and if it is a mini version of it, i would be so happy.

kidwoo · Jan 10, 2014

slyfink said:
I'm not sure what happened exactly, all I know is that the distributor replaced two cartridges (I'm assuming rebound and compression). How it happened was that I was night riding, and I took a little kicker slightly too fast and slightly off kilter from my usual position. I dead-sailored, and landed rear wheel first, and when my front wheel came down, it bottomed out hard. Hard enough to pinch flat my tubeless setup and loose all air. After I put a tube in and went to get going again, I noticed that my rebound damping wasn't working and the adjuster knob had no more "clicks" to it. Sent it in, they replaced all that needed replacing, and I haven't been able to ride since. well, I rode last night, but it was 1.4°F out, so not much was moving in the fork... and the surface was beautifully smooth, snowshoe-packed snow.

Sounds like a fox rear air shock in one week of life.

CBJ · Jan 10, 2014

That is pretty spot on blow up description

jackalope · Jan 10, 2014

92SE-R said:
What about upcoming mattoc? I love my dorado and if it is a mini version of it, i would be so happy.

This. Cautiously stoked about this upcoming set of forks.

gemini2k · Jan 10, 2014

jackalope said:
This. Cautiously stoked about this upcoming set of forks.

Agreed, my number one complaint with the Dorado would likely be less of an issue in a trail fork (lack of mid stroke support). The mattoc may be my next fork. I found out this week that pricing won't be too ridiculous.

demo 9 · Jan 10, 2014

prestigemtb.com for all your BOS needs, real good guy

Kanye West · Jan 11, 2014

jonKranked said:
if he was running too high a pressure to get the proper sag and prevent it from bottoming out, then it could certainly be a factor

The Rune frame (and any frame with this same U shaped leverage curve like the Sunday's and a low average leverage) are a real PITA to tune for.

On my X-Fusion Vector rear shock, I've pretty much got the main shimstack at the lightest tune possible, and feel like it could be even lighter still. The mid-stroke just hits a wall going over chatter, but then it still bottoms out easily if you blow past that. Also haven't found a really good sag measurement for it yet.

The rest of the frame is good. REALLY good. Awesome geo, super stiff, excellent and stable cornering. Just need to get it floating through the rough stuff a little better.

G2K's CCDB definitely feels like crap on that frame. We tried a bunch of different air pressures and settings. When you hit edges the shock just feels sorta constipated, but then still bottoms out.

troy · Jan 12, 2014

Hacktastic said:
The Rune frame (and any frame with this same U shaped leverage curve like the Sunday's and a low average leverage) are a real PITA to tune for.

On my X-Fusion Vector rear shock, I've pretty much got the main shimstack at the lightest tune possible, and feel like it could be even lighter still. The mid-stroke just hits a wall going over chatter, but then it still bottoms out easily if you blow past that. Also haven't found a really good sag measurement for it yet.

The rest of the frame is good. REALLY good. Awesome geo, super stiff, excellent and stable cornering. Just need to get it floating through the rough stuff a little better.

G2K's CCDB definitely feels like crap on that frame. We tried a bunch of different air pressures and settings. When you hit edges the shock just feels sorta constipated, but then still bottoms out.

You should try some really progressive airshock, DHXA? Or change an aircan in CCDB to a small one. You wont be able to tune correctly ANY shock if You won't figure out pressure/springrate 1st.

supercow · Jan 12, 2014

kidwoo said:
Define 'blow up' purty please.

My friend's Pike did this - does that count?

Mo(n)arch said:
You were in the middle?

You can call me "Lucky Pierre"

On topic:

No 140mm bike has the right to be this fun, fast and accurate.
I'm head over heels with this build of mine

Steve M · Jan 12, 2014

jonKranked said:
if he was running too high a pressure to get the proper sag and prevent it from bottoming out, then it could certainly be a factor

For a given air can size, pressure at a given percentage of sag will be proportional to the pressure at bottom out. Whether the pressure at sag is 50psi or 250psi is irrelevant. Matching the air can size to the frame matters for sure, but rider weight simply scales the pressure up or down, it doesn't change the proportions of the spring curve that you need.

Edit: Let's say you want to run 25% sag, and at a weight of 150lbs with a certain air sleeve, you need to run 125psi. At bottom out, the positive pressure in the air spring might reach say 375psi (three times the pressure that you measure with the shock topped out, when you're pumping it up). If you're 300lbs instead of 150, you'll need to run 250psi instead of 125psi to achieve the same sag. Because the compression ratio of the spring is a fixed value for this air sleeve, you'll reach 750psi at bottom out instead of 375psi. Double the rider weight, double the pressures, double the forces. What you need to be matching up is the PROPORTIONS of sag pressure to bottom out pressure that you need to get out of the shock once the leverage rate is considered. That proportion is what the air can size affects. Whether you weigh 100lbs or 300lbs is irrelevant because you'll simply scale the pressures up or down to match your weight, but the frame you're on affects the relative values of the forces going into the shock at different points in the travel.

If you are reaching the point where the pressure you require from your shock is higher than the shock's rated maximum, then unfortunately you need a different frame/shock combination.

kidwoo · Jan 12, 2014

supercow said:
My friend's Pike did this - does that count?

Nope. that's kind of what I was asking originally. Seal problems are not 'blowing up'. A lot of people don't seem to understand that.

That's a cool trick though. I wanna try it.

What the hell caused that? You think it was binding with the lowers flexing on the stanchions or just a crappy seal seat tolerance?

supercow · Jan 13, 2014

kidwoo said:
Nope. that's kind of what I was asking originally. Seal problems are not 'blowing up'. A lot of people don't seem to understand that.

That's a cool trick though. I wanna try it.

What the hell caused that? You think it was binding with the lowers flexing on the stanchions or just a crappy seal seat tolerance?

JRA caused it - he did a small step up (5feet or something) landed it smooth and it went pop.

He had to get a new air cart for it as well!

92SE-R · Jan 13, 2014

ive seen that on other forks. air seal goes, pressurizes lowers, and pops off dust/oil seal.

jonKranked · Jan 13, 2014

Steve M said:
For a given air can size, pressure at a given percentage of sag will be proportional to the pressure at bottom out. Whether the pressure at sag is 50psi or 250psi is irrelevant. Matching the air can size to the frame matters for sure, but rider weight simply scales the pressure up or down, it doesn't change the proportions of the spring curve that you need.

Edit: Let's say you want to run 25% sag, and at a weight of 150lbs with a certain air sleeve, you need to run 125psi. At bottom out, the positive pressure in the air spring might reach say 375psi (three times the pressure that you measure with the shock topped out, when you're pumping it up). If you're 300lbs instead of 150, you'll need to run 250psi instead of 125psi to achieve the same sag. Because the compression ratio of the spring is a fixed value for this air sleeve, you'll reach 750psi at bottom out instead of 375psi. Double the rider weight, double the pressures, double the forces. What you need to be matching up is the PROPORTIONS of sag pressure to bottom out pressure that you need to get out of the shock once the leverage rate is considered. That proportion is what the air can size affects. Whether you weigh 100lbs or 300lbs is irrelevant because you'll simply scale the pressures up or down to match your weight, but the frame you're on affects the relative values of the forces going into the shock at different points in the travel.

If you are reaching the point where the pressure you require from your shock is higher than the shock's rated maximum, then unfortunately you need a different frame/shock combination.

tl;dr i was alluding to the fact that if the can size was wrong, he might be trying to compensate for what is effectively an over/under sprung shock by adding/removing compression damping, which could be buggering things.

jonKranked · Jan 13, 2014

supercow said:
My friend's Pike did this - does that count?

this is a sram product. that's a "feature", seals that self remove for easy cleaning

kidwoo · Jan 13, 2014

supercow said:
He had to get a new air cart for it as well!

So what you're saying is that it blew up.

Did he breach the air chamber? That's pretty manly. I definitely want to try that.

supercow · Jan 13, 2014

kidwoo said:
So what you're saying is that it blew up.

Did he breach the air chamber? That's pretty manly. I definitely want to try that.

Haha, in a matter of speaking yes, she blew

Yea from what he said, the air chamber went fubarred - don;t have the exact details... happened on the run just after I left for home haha.

Mini-DH fork - Pike vs. XFusion Sweep

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