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Float X CTD vs Float CTD

Tootrikky

Monkey
Jul 31, 2003
772
0
Mount Vernon
I am no suspension guru, but I thought the main benefit of a remote resivoir on a shock was to provide a higher oil volume. The increased volume decreases fading under high cyclic loads, due to heat and cavitation, and therefore provides more consistent dampening. When comparing a Float CTD and a Float CTD X the spring air chambers are pretty much the same, so I would think the only noticeable difference would be on longer downhill runs where the shock gets worked really hard.

The reason I ask is because of the recent review of the Norco Sight on Pinbike where they state:

"The one issue we ran into was that at times the rear suspension felt harsh, especially at the top of the stroke, and it lacked the plush, bottomless feeling that encourages letting off the brakes and firing the afterburners through the rough stuff. We thought part of this may have been due to the tires, since the 2.25” Ardents are on the narrow side, so we swapped them out for a set of Schwalbe Hans Dampfs we had on hand. This did make a difference, adding more rubber between the bike and the trail to soak up some of the chatter, but we were never able to completely erase the impression that the rear shock choice could have been improved, maybe with a reservoir style shock like Fox's Float X"

So my qusetion is: How does the Remote Resivoir/increased oil volume of the Float CTD X make it more plush than a Float CTD? Does the damping circuit on the Float X remote resivoir shock contributes more to the spring curve, than the damping circuit on the Float?
 
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Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,855
9,560
AK
Avalanche will mod the Float X and put in their high/low compression circuit and adjuster in there, that right there is worth considering IMO. If it feels anything like my chubbie did with the same damping circuits, it's a no-brainer for a big upgrade.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I'm only going on your quoted bit (and based on that, I know for a fact I'm not going to read any more) but I think what you're reading is a few things not quite spelled out.

1: Itty bitty air shocks suck at damping, always have always will. Like you said there's just not enough oil there do to real work.

2: Fox CTD shocks in particular really really really suck at damping. Not because just because they have a small volume but because once again, a mtnbike manufacturer who has been doing things pretty well blew it by trying something that most of us had hoped was a thing of the past with inefficient frame designs.....completely control different aspects of riding with a friggin lever. It fvcked up the whole game for the most part and took them away from tuning a shock that works well by just riding it up a hill and down it without touching it.

3: Piggyback shocks do have more oil volume, that's why they're there like you said. ('remote' usually involves a hose btw) But they don't make bikes more plush™, they make them more controlled, especially along greater temperature gradients. But without discussing axle path of the bike or giving a more elaborate description of what he's feeling, he's kind of talking out of his ass and sounds like he's just fluffing the next big thing from a site sponsor.


edit: JM: is that the avy chamber on there? That thing looks mean! :D
 
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PUSHIND

PUSH Industries (Duh)
Dec 5, 2003
220
244
Colorado
So my qusetion is: How does the Remote Resivoir/increased oil volume of the Float CTD X make it more plush than a Float CTD? Does the damping circuit on the Float X remote resivoir shock contributes more to the spring curve, than the damping circuit on the Float?
The short answer is, it doesn't. Whether or not a shock has an external reservoir doesn't effect how plush it is, nor does increasing oil volume necessarily. Reservoirs compensate for the oil displaced by the shaft. Increasing the reservoir volume by 50% doesn't change the amount of fluid displaced by the shaft, therefore not increasing the net result of the damper at all.

In the case of a FLOAT X, it uses a traditional shimmed non-preloaded main piston, whereas the standard CTD uses a preloaded boost valve. These two systems create entirely different damping characteristics. That's the real difference.

Darren
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
I'm only going on your quoted bit (and based on that, I know for a fact I'm not going to read any more) but I think what you're reading is a few things not quite spelled out.

1: Itty bitty air shocks suck at damping, always have always will. Like you said there's just not enough oil there do to real work.

2: Fox CTD shocks in particular really really really suck at damping. Not because just because they have a small volume but because once again, a mtnbike manufacturer who has been doing things pretty well blew it by trying something that most of us had hoped was a thing of the past with inefficient frame designs.....completely control different aspects of riding with a friggin lever. It fvcked up the whole game for the most part and took them away from tuning a shock that works well by just riding it up a hill and down it without touching it.

3: Piggyback shocks do have more oil volume, that's why they're there like you said. ('remote' usually involves a hose btw) But they don't make bikes more plush™, they make them more controlled, especially along greater temperature gradients. But without discussing axle path of the bike or giving a more elaborate description of what he's feeling, he's kind of talking out of his ass and sounds like he's just fluffing the next big thing from a site sponsor.


edit: JM: is that the avy chamber on there? That thing looks mean! :D
As Darren said, it's not actually specifically to do with the size of the shock or the amount of oil in there. The amount of oil does affect how long it takes to heat things up, and I would agree that the standard Floats are pretty easy to get piping hot. The Propedal (now CTD) circuits in the standard Floats (CTD/RP23) are designed to shut down bobbing of the shock AND provide control of compression damping at higher speeds through a single piston.

From a layout perspective, the advantage the Float X has in this regard is the fact that it has two separate damping circuits (the midvalve and the externally adjustable CTD basevalve) which make the LS configuration far less finicky as you can remove the platform element entirely (by flicking the switch) without decreasing control over your low and mid-speed compression damping. If you're clever about it you can achieve similar results with a standard Float, especially if you're willing to sacrifice the platform aspect of it, but it's not as simple to do.

As far as having an adjustable lever, almost everyone up here seems to make use of theirs, to the point where even Cane Creek went and added one to the DB Air. It doesn't have to make things worse, in fact usually it does actually make things better.
 

Tootrikky

Monkey
Jul 31, 2003
772
0
Mount Vernon
The short answer is, it doesn't. Whether or not a shock has an external reservoir doesn't effect how plush it is, nor does increasing oil volume necessarily. Reservoirs compensate for the oil displaced by the shaft. Increasing the reservoir volume by 50% doesn't change the amount of fluid displaced by the shaft, therefore not increasing the net result of the damper at all.

In the case of a FLOAT X, it uses a traditional shimmed non-preloaded main piston, whereas the standard CTD uses a preloaded boost valve. These two systems create entirely different damping characteristics. That's the real difference.

Darren

Ok just as I suspected, and thanks for the great answer. Makes sense now. Seems like the reviewers at Vital were either simplifying things greatly for the sake of a shorter word count, or committing a GCE (gross conceptual error). I would guess a little of both.
 
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Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,855
9,560
AK
edit: JM: is that the avy chamber on there? That thing looks mean! :D
It's avy high/low valving, there's a reservoir extension I believe too, but that high/low circuit should be damn nice. Supposedly my CTD doesn't have the boost valve, the CTD with trail adjust does? In any case, its too soft and wallow-ey with in "D" mode, and trail mode loses the ability to eat the sharp edged impacts at speed as well, and the ""C" setting is just dumb, should be called "fling your butt in the air any time you hit a bump and lose traction".
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
As Darren said, it's not actually specifically to do with the size of the shock or the amount of oil in there. The amount of oil does affect how long it takes to heat things up, and I would agree that the standard Floats are pretty easy to get piping hot. The Propedal (now CTD) circuits in the standard Floats (CTD/RP23) are designed to shut down bobbing of the shock AND provide control of compression damping at higher speeds through a single piston.
Don't you know?
MOAR OILZ is BETTER OILZ!

Seriously though what kind of mental break down did fox have? They had shocks that worked fairly well but the most outdated feature on them, propedal somehow needed an upgrade? It needs to just go away. We're not riding hecklers any more. I don't know anyone that's used one of their dumb levers since the 70s. They put that crap on a dirtjump fork. Let me repeat that..........a DIRT JUMP FORK.

And yeah I can see people using levers on their shocks in the valley (assuming that's what you mean by 'here'). Those trails are just HORRIBLY built :D

Tricky: is that review on pinkbike or vital? I couldn't find it on vital.
 
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Tootrikky

Monkey
Jul 31, 2003
772
0
Mount Vernon
Crap I am high as usual. Pinkbike not Vital.

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Norco-Sight-Carbon-71-Review-2014.html


Don't you know?
MOAR OILZ is BETTER OILZ!

Seriously though what kind of mental break down did fox have? They had shocks that worked fairly well but the most outdated feature on them, propedal somehow needed an upgrade? It needs to just go away. We're not riding hecklers any more. I don't know anyone that's used one of their dumb levers since the 70s. They put that crap on a dirtjump fork. Let me repeat that..........a DIRT JUMP FORK.

And yeah I can see people using levers on their shocks in the valley (assuming that's what you mean by 'here'). Those trails are just HORRIBLY built :D

Tricky: is that review on pinkbike or vital? I couldn't find it on vital.
 

Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,740
470
Whether or not a shock has an external reservoir doesn't effect how plush it is
Not entirely true. In the case of these reverse-body air shocks (like the Float X, the Roco Air WC, the X Fusion Vector Air) they rely on displacing the oil through a VERY tight cavity in the main shaft, and I've found that style shock has a ton of harshness to it on high speed impacts, even with a zero compression setting, where it's standard-body equivalent would not.

Offroad trucks will use different style NPT fittings and reservoir hose diameters and hose stiffnesses to tune HSC as well on their coilover shocks. Certain teams would insist on the most restrictive style (90 degree elbow fitting) for super fast pre-running. There's a very noticeable difference running the same piston and same valving in a remote reservoir shock vs. an inline shock.

In the case of a FLOAT X, it uses a traditional shimmed non-preloaded main piston, whereas the standard CTD uses a preloaded boost valve. These two systems create entirely different damping characteristics. That's the real difference.
Good info.
 

saruti

Turbo Monkey
Oct 29, 2006
1,167
73
Israel
hi guys
I have a FOX CTD on my Mondraker FOXY frame.
I feel like it's not working as good as the fox float on my old IronHorse MKIII ...
now that I read what you say here about this CTD 5hit... I think that the problem is in the shock?
how can I fix that?
replace the shock? or maybe there is a way to fix it?

thanks
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
hi guys
I have a FOX CTD on my Mondraker FOXY frame.
I feel like it's not working as good as the fox float on my old IronHorse MKIII ...
now that I read what you say here about this CTD 5hit... I think that the problem is in the shock?
how can I fix that?
replace the shock? or maybe there is a way to fix it?

thanks
Float CTD shocks are functionally no different to the old Float RP2/RP23s - they're not a bad shock at all, but they're also not a DH shock. They have a slightly smaller shaft which means very slightly more oil flow through the main piston, but other than that the damper functions in the same way. If you're having trouble with it, it's more likely that the combination of your new frame + your damper tune and/or air can volumes aren't working as well as your old bike. The MkIII leverage curve was specifically designed around that shock I believe, I haven't measured up a Foxy so I can't comment on that one but if it's not working as well, that's most likely the reason.
 

saruti

Turbo Monkey
Oct 29, 2006
1,167
73
Israel
thanks Steve.
I will try a coil spring shock on the bike soon :)
hope it will make it better. (not that is is bad now, it's just can be better. I think...)
 

PUSHIND

PUSH Industries (Duh)
Dec 5, 2003
220
244
Colorado
Not entirely true. In the case of these reverse-body air shocks (like the Float X, the Roco Air WC, the X Fusion Vector Air) they rely on displacing the oil through a VERY tight cavity in the main shaft, and I've found that style shock has a ton of harshness to it on high speed impacts, even with a zero compression setting, where it's standard-body equivalent would not.

Offroad trucks will use different style NPT fittings and reservoir hose diameters and hose stiffnesses to tune HSC as well on their coilover shocks. Certain teams would insist on the most restrictive style (90 degree elbow fitting) for super fast pre-running. There's a very noticeable difference running the same piston and same valving in a remote reservoir shock vs. an inline shock.
I can only speak for the FLOAT X because it's the only unit listed that I've tested, but it doesn't produce damping via fluid transfer through the shaft like you mentioned.

Darren
 

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,001
1,693
Northern California
Do any of these have the initial compliance and consistent performance of a good coil shock yet? I dread the day when my AM frame cracks and I'm forced to buy something with an air shock.