Is there an optimal suspension curve for racing or going faster.

norbar · Mar 28, 2014

There is no consensus among the designers. Some progression may be welcome but too much and it's not a dh bike anymore. It's a 200mm park bike. Even the almighty Trek acknowledged that and made the session less progressive. I'd say if you ride over rough tracks get something with a fair bit of linearity and a fair bit of rearward travel. As it is the case with the m9.

What are the other bikes you can get?

dcamp29 · Mar 28, 2014

no. there is no ideal suspension curve. for anything. there are some that ride better than others, but rider style, track type and other factors make a much bigger difference. test ride some bikes and buy the one you like best, or the cheapest.

Running fresh/new tires will probably make you faster than any new frame can...

kidwoo · Mar 28, 2014

While I sort of agree with dcamp, it's just in a personal preference thing. As in, no I don't think there's one ideal leverage rate for everyone based on preference and how they prefer to ride.

BUT, I still see dh racing as a developing confluence of information still. As in I see a day in the future where someone really quantifies this and comes up with consistently faster times from various riders on a similar setup. I personally really like progressive rate frames, but I've also ridden enough bikes that are a lot more linear that I feel like I could maybe even go faster on because I can just focus on line choices 100ft ahead and not worry about some of the hangups and boosts that a progressive frame is going to give you over some sections of trail. Then once that's proven, everyone's just going to fall in line and go with it because at that point it's hard data.

You'll still see tuning and tweaking for different areas/tracks/trails but the overall setups between riders is going to be more or less the same with the personal tweaks much more subtle.

None of this has any bearing on your next bike purchase though IMO. You're already old and busted and won't be pissing off Gee Atherton any time soon, so just buy what you prefer and really enjoy those golden years.

Verskis · Mar 28, 2014

So what is exactly wrong with your current M9, why not just keep riding it?

dcamp29 · Mar 28, 2014

kidwoo said:
BUT, I still see dh racing as a developing confluence of information still. As in I see a day in the future where someone really quantifies this and comes up with consistently faster times from various riders on a similar setup. I personally really like progressive rate frames, but I've also ridden enough bikes that are a lot more linear that I feel like I could maybe even go faster on because I can just focus on line choices 100ft ahead and not worry about some of the hangups and boosts that a progressive frame is going to give you over some sections of trail. Then once that's proven, everyone's just going to fall in line and go with it because at that point it's hard data.

Yeah, but this magical 'ideal rate' is not going to be the same for say Andrew Neethling as it would be for Chris Kovarik. DH racing depends way too much on rider and style.

Anyways OP- i think 650b bikes are faster than 26, so if you are truly looking for speed, ride the M9 one more year and then go 650. Besides your new 26 rig would be unsellable in 2 years...

yd35 · Mar 28, 2014

You wanna go faster? I'd eliminate the biggest hindrance here: the rider (you).

Get Steve Smith to attach a sidecar to his ride. All you need to provide are the WWI aviator goggles and flappy leather helmet.

kidwoo · Mar 28, 2014

dcamp29 said:
Yeah, but this magical 'ideal rate' is not going to be the same for say Andrew Neethling as it would be for Chris Kovarik. DH racing depends way too much on rider and style.

That's what I'm saying. I completely disagree with that. There will always be subtleties in tweaking for individual riders but at a certain point hauling ass on a trail (I'm thinking all on the line world cup speeds and even 10 years from now when that gets even faster), becomes just holding on and looking ahead. I don't give a shlt who you are, at a certain point all those little pumps, presses and pops start to become irrelevant because you're just moving so damn fast. It becomes more about the bike's ability to handle it because the human body can't.

If any real money starts getting made in dh racing, there will be a level of data quantification going on that this sport hasn't seen yet. Whatever team/company/whatever decides to do it will come up with something valuable and then everyone else will follow suit, whether it helps local domestic racers or not. It's going to valuable to market that data because it will dictate their designs. It's just never been done in a real meaningful way across a broad enough spectrum of riders and terrain. You know......the kind of stuff that's gone on in just about every single technology based sport on the planet where there's some payoff.

kidwoo · Mar 28, 2014

SCARY said:
My god, I hate you so much.

If you can get Gee on here, I've got $10 or slightly used tires that says I can piss him off.

Yeah but I meant piss him off in a way that matters. And you know when it comes to bikes, there's only one thing that matters to him.

TrumbullHucker · Mar 28, 2014

i dont even know what my frame has but i can confirm it is the most optimal fastest raceist frame out there

Team 9.8 · Mar 28, 2014

I ride a Specialized Demo 8 II and love it, but in my opinion the bike is suited for each rider separately. I had ridden others and none felt as good to me as the Demo, but like I said, that was just me.

Samoto · Mar 28, 2014

how about enderpo? mine weighs 33 lbs

yd35 · Mar 28, 2014

SCARY said:
Yeah, well......let that sister humper come into my e-arena. Then let HIM try and keep up in the world cup...Internet of sarcasm........Thunderdome!

Who rules Bartertown?

dcamp29 · Mar 28, 2014

kidwoo said:
That's what I'm saying. I completely disagree with that. There will always be subtleties in tweaking for individual riders but at a certain point hauling ass on a trail (I'm thinking all on the line world cup speeds and even 10 years from now when that gets even faster), becomes just holding on and looking ahead. I don't give a shlt who you are, at a certain point all those little pumps, presses and pops start to become irrelevant because you're just moving so damn fast. It becomes more about the bike's ability to handle it because the human body can't.

If any real money starts getting made in dh racing, there will be a level of data quantification going on that this sport hasn't seen yet. Whatever team/company/whatever decides to do it will come up with something valuable and then everyone else will follow suit, whether it helps local domestic racers or not. It's going to valuable to market that data because it will dictate their designs. It's just never been done in a real meaningful way across a broad enough spectrum of riders and terrain. You know......the kind of stuff that's gone on in just about every single technology based sport on the planet where there's some payoff.

Interesting, I guess I still think the pilot will always be more important than the bike in DH. I don't see speeds getting that* much faster over the next 10 years; the sport is mature and starting to plateau. Doesn't seem like we'll ever get to the point where you basically jsut sit on a bike and steer because you're going so fast you can't do anything else.

The ultimate technology race- F1- is certainly more car than driver; the best driver in the worst car on the F1 grid will not be able to win or even compete. I think Steve Smith could be top 10 on any 'world cup' level bike.

OGRipper · Mar 28, 2014

dcamp29 said:
I think Steve Smith could be top 10 on any 'world cup' level bike.

Maybe. But can a guy who dominated on one bike switch and keep Gwinning at the same level?

kidwoo · Mar 28, 2014

OGRipper said:
Maybe. But can a guy who dominated on one bike switch and keep Gwinning at the same level?

Yeah I was thinking the same thing.

Steve smith didn't gwin too well on a 650b bike at worlds.

Actually maybe that is 'gwinning' now. Switch bikes and start blowing it..........

gnarbar · Mar 28, 2014

Team 9.8 said:
in my opinion the bike is suited for each rider separately.

Confuse, I am.

kidwoo · Mar 28, 2014

dcamp29 said:
Interesting, I guess I still think the pilot will always be more important than the bike in DH. I don't see speeds getting that* much faster over the next 10 years; the sport is mature and starting to plateau. Doesn't seem like we'll ever get to the point where you basically jsut sit on a bike and steer because you're going so fast you can't do anything else.

This sport won't truly plateau until you start to see talent pooling with like what goes on with moto, the NBA or NFL. I know what you mean, but it's a self imposed plateau we're at right now.

We've already come to some universals, you just may not be thinking of them on the surface.

-Round abouts 8" of front AND rear travel
-BBs about 14" +/- a few cunt hairs
-Headangles round abouts 63 degrees +/-

These weren't 'givens' even 6 years ago. And 6 years ago we were arguing all these things based on ......you got it, 'personal preference and riding style'

I see no reason why suspension curves are any different. Anyone who's done timed runs knows that the fastest isn't always the feel you'd 'prefer' and choose just in some test runs.

I know you were exaggerating a bit with the 'sit down and steer' comment but greg herbold (who cut the course) would be saying that's exactly what a 2014 santa cruz V10 is compared to the bike he was riding (when he cut the course).

But we'll never know until someone sits down with the resources and quantifies it one way or another. I think there are some universal truths to be found. No one has really tried yet outside of tweaks on a given frame or between two or so variables.

joeg · Mar 28, 2014

SCARY said:
AI've noticed quite a few bikes touting a "progressive" suspension curve.And over the time ive had the m9 ive noticed that i set the front up pretty stiff and progressive , but the rear is softer and more linear.

I don't really want to wade my uninformed self into the discussion, but I would like to point out that the terminology being used is inccurate.

"linear" means along a straight line. It does not indicate the horizontal or vertical nature of said line.

A progressive shock rate or leverage curve can be "linear". It could be regressive, or it could be constant. I believe that when bike people say "linear" they mean constant - or proportional, which means having a constant ratio to another quantity. The ratio of wheel travel to shock travel remains the same (leverage) remains the same.

It bugs the crap out of me - its right up there with dampener, front shocks, and rear mech.

that said, your bike works with your spring-damper, so you want to have them work together.

SinatorJ · Mar 28, 2014

SCARY said:
2 more years and I'll set the record for oldest guys on a bike.

No because quinton will always be older...and faster

dcamp29 · Mar 28, 2014

kidwoo said:
This sport won't truly plateau until you start to see talent pooling with like what goes on with moto, the NBA or NFL. I know what you mean, but it's a self imposed plateau we're at right now.

other stuff

never gonna happen. the talent pool is and will always be small. DH is expensive, dangerous, hard to access, a sub-genre of a niche sport (MTB). it will never be big, and there will never be enough $$$ to throw away at measuring the types of thing you are hinting at. It's hard enough for most companies to get bikes to their racers by sea otter.

yeah you are right- the bikes are getting more similar- like moto bikes, they are all fairly close. the sport and equipment are maturing... I agree leverage rates are going to get more and more similar as well, i just don't think there is *one* to end all.

Different riders/courses/styles can always favor slightly different suspension rates/dampener/front shocks.

Muddy · Mar 28, 2014

Where trends are at with ultra-jacked front end heights is partly driving all the slick-marketing of 'this' part of rear suspension vs 'those' parts.

A well sorted bike is a well sorted bike, it's just the riders who submit to trending who raise their handlebars to be able to loft the bike off of a sideways cunt hair across the trail sets the churn for the many many many suspensions out here.

For ex. I'm going with a lower front end (sorta) to move my weight back a bit and then run less overall pressure and damping in front but then be able to slightly stiffen overall rear pressure and run less rebound there also. This is a DW*Link bike so where I am over the bike makes differences in suspension quality, not just pedaling & climbing efficiency.

Bars are at the same height as before, but are taller and the stem is now offset to the negative and shorter only with more reach -- spooky. It's all to avoid artificially having to weight the front end in corners, which was not much of a problem, but being able to shift behind the crankset will greatly improve power-on and power-off moments w/ my bike.

kidwoo · Mar 28, 2014

dcamp29 said:
never gonna happen. the talent pool is and will always be small. DH is expensive, dangerous, hard to access, a sub-genre of a niche sport (MTB).

Oh I know. We all remember when motocross died out for the same reasons.

I know for dayum sure it ain't gonna happen in freedom eagle land because there aren't any bullets or motors involved. But keep in mind..........
for some reason........
that will probably never make sense to anyone in dh.................
road bike racing gets lots of money.
I don't get it either but it makes me believe in unicorns. I think the fact that joeg and other companies are making bikes aimed squarely at day traders and dentists is good start though.

Keep in mind, I've said this whole time in this thread that there will be tweaking to idividuals. I just think setups are going to get a lot more similar than they are different. It may evolve at dinosaur pace like it has been OR if some money starts getting pumped into the sport, happen much quicker. But I do think it will happen.

Then we can all buy the same linear regressive progressive dual rate anti splat frame designed for the newest state of the art dampenator, the current forkS, and rear mecks from santa cruz.

dcamp29 · Mar 28, 2014

road bikes are in the olympics, on tv, and are much easier and safer for a 55 year old dentist to ride. that is why there is more money.

I agree setups are getting more and more similar. I also believe that there isn't one setup that is best.

kidwoo · Mar 28, 2014

dcamp29 said:
road bikes are in the olympics,

I just hope that one day, one day.....dh racing can be up there with the important sports like trampolining and curling!

This is where dreams start!

demo 9 · Mar 28, 2014

I know this is a little bit off topic, but wouldn't wheelpath be the "most" important aspect. I could be wrong, but isnt shock rate how it "feels" (or scientifically, uses travel per a given ratio) Wheelpath is the actual plot of where the wheel moves. I would think in a race with lots of bumps, a poorly designed (proper) high pivot would be FASTER than a very well designed DW curve with a forward/vert wheelpath.

Feeling aside, wouldnt the high pivot be faster-if there were a way to scientifically test it.

jnooth · Mar 28, 2014

I think wheel path also has a ton to do with a riders riding style. Demo 9 you have ridden a jedi and a demo and I know you know how they ride very differently, but wouldn't you agree that one riders style could make one work better than the other. maybe you could make a standard test but unless you can input how the rider affects that then I think it would be tough to say what one is FASTER.

kidwoo · Mar 28, 2014

yup

Do you remember some of those dual wheel path attempts? BCD the carbon guy made one. Shortens for corners but moves back in straightline hits. At least that was the idea.

I don't remember the DW link being wheel path specific as much as antisquish specific. I don't see why you couldn't come up with a rearward arcing dw link bike(unless I'm wrong about wheelpath specifics in the patent). I wouldn't want to corner on it as much but it would keep on truckin.

SinatorJ · Mar 28, 2014

SCARY said:
Can he tig weld and make high end furniture, though?

Yeah, that's right

Don't you have diapers to change or something?

Big talk from a cripple

demo 9 · Mar 28, 2014

jnooth said:
I think wheel path also has a ton to do with a riders riding style. Demo 9 you have ridden a jedi and a demo and I know you know how they ride very differently, but wouldn't you agree that one riders style could make one work better than the other. maybe you could make a standard test but unless you can input how the rider affects that then I think it would be tough to say what one is FASTER.

I absolutely agree-but i think that it has to do more with track than preference, for example, a jedi is one of if not the best bikes at mountain creek (flat and rocky) I think a jedi may tend to get out of hand at champery (boosting itself out of chutes/corners) I would say that a demo would be a great bike for champery, i loved mine in the corners, it just didnt take bumps very well.

Although any science guys want to chime in on this? my theory is that the most rearward bike; from a purely scientific perspective(regardless as to what it is) SHOULD be faster anywhere-period. Based ENTIRELY on the fact that the bike that slows down the least (did i word that right?) should be the fastest. AKA, you dont have to use all that power

Sort of like a CR125 vs a CR500 around a moto track-in theory, i would think that if you put the best robot rider on either one-the 500 would win because it is faster (power) Even on a tight track where it couldnt use it all, it still has just as much as the 125, only the option for more.

Shouldnt this be true for bikes. (only from a science point of view) I know people that cant ride rearward, and i know people that cant ride vert.

Is there an optimal suspension curve for racing or going faster.

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