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Is DH racing dying?

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,289
5,028
Ottawa, Canada
Saw this over on PB: http://www.pinkbike.com/news/how-to-save-downhill-racing-2014.html

it really surprised me. I thought DH racing was doing quite well, especially since Redbull stepped up to the plate for coverage. Yeah, some pros have tried their hand at Enduro, but the only ones that stayed with Enduro are old-timers and perennial mid-packers. Enduro is a different beast, not slagging it, it's just different.

I still consider DH the pinnacle of mountain biking. The skill, dedication, and "mental-ness" of it amaze me. Xc racing is road riders on dirt, and Enduro... well, even though Curtis Keene calls it 3 world cup courses stacked one on top of the other and doing 4-6 stages over a weekend, Enduro remains a different game. I remember Cedric being interviewed in Whistler and saying that you come at sections much quicker on a DH bike than a trail bike, and you have to get used to the speed. DH is on another level than Enduro I think.

I agree with the author it's more of a spectator sport than participant for the average rider. So maybe small, local races have less enrollment, but I thought that UCI DHI viewership was up, team budgets were up, and rider skills are constantly evolving too. Maybe it's less popular at the grass-roots level, but I really feel that at the pointy-end of the stick, the product on offer is getting better and bigger.

Am I wrong?
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,562
24,182
media blackout
DH has been dying since the 90's, when all the money left.


granted yes, there's more money now than in recent years, but i doubt it'll ever get back to those levels.
 

shirk007

Monkey
Apr 14, 2009
499
354
I dig watching DH at the WC level, but at the grassroots level it's struggling and going to see dark times before any chance of numbers increasing.

Grassroots enduro on the other hand is going off. We had 143 riders out last night to our first Toonie of 2014. We switched up the format to enduro last year and our participation numbers have sky rocketed.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
I dig watching DH at the WC level, but at the grassroots level it's struggling and going to see dark times before any chance of numbers increasing.

Grassroots enduro on the other hand is going off. We had 143 riders out last night to our first Toonie of 2014. We switched up the format to enduro last year and our participation numbers have sky rocketed.
I think that's the problem. People think that they some companies switch to enduro it must mean dh is dying while the truth is dh is the same in terms of attendance it has been for years. The only thing that is different is that the industry has finally realised there is an area of riding that covers a much bigger marker/rider population. So yeah now when everybody realized enduro exists we thing dh is small. Dh was always very small but it was still growing and it was still awesome. Yeah we need some smart people who need to know how to well our sport but enduro will help in that since it may work as a gateway sport (no pun intended)
 

thom9719

Turbo Monkey
Jul 25, 2005
1,104
0
In the Northwest.
I dig watching DH at the WC level, but at the grassroots level it's struggling and going to see dark times before any chance of numbers increasing.

The first NW cup this year had record attendance, both riders and spectators. Nearly 500 racers, all while the world cup riders were in SA/AUS. DH isn't dead in the PNW.

-KT
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,536
5,470
UK
then you'll know road racing is hard as nails and DH is a little pansy in comparisson...

Why do you like your man ass on roadbikes? love of the chase?
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Gary:
I've raced road bikes, I've raced xc, and I raced dh occasionally for a few years. For the genres, I actually enjoyed racing xc and road more than dh. I like having time to use strategies where one little fvck up doesn't completely waste your travel time and money so much.

But xc has gotten to the point that it really is just another fitness contest. I'd say it's even worse that classic road racing because there's even less strategy involved. But it's not representative of what I and a bunch of other people consider mountain biking. Even the races I used to do were on 4-5" travel trail bikes that you could pound through some rocks with, without looking like the ass clenching goons that win UCI world cup races. Their bikes are so roaded out with pinner wheels, pinner tires, pinner 29" wheeled frames.......they're nothing but climbing machines that at best 'survive' a descent just long enough to get to another smooth sustained climb where the races are always won. Even the last two WC courses don't alleviate that principle just because they had one or two short 'sections' that an absolute beginner would stumble on. That's all I'm saying.

Did you watch the cairns XCE? It's a guilty pleasure of mine to watch those hoping for crashes out of the 'gates'. There was a series rollers that started with a stepdown with a nice run in zone. Not a single rider doubled those things up or even attempted the stepdown (which would have been easy). Just doing that would have put like 3 bike lengths on their competitors. But again, it was just a pedal contest which may as well have been done on stationary bikes indoors.
 
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Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,536
5,470
UK
I reckon WC XC has always been a fitness challenge on weak but light equipment. But almost 2 decades ago (back when I still raced XC here in Scotland) .. a lot of the courses were actually challenging, especially some of the natural european mountain venues and even more so if it in was ****ty conditions.. I stopped watching it as the courses became less and less challenging and shared next to nothing with a Scottish XC race. ignoring the push for full sus to become competitive in the 90s the evolution of super light climbing weapon bikes was a given.. To be honest, it's only the last few years I've strated to watch it again properly and yeah, the courses are far from great but I feel at least they are starting to head in the right direction again.. road style tactics really don't interest me in mtb at all (hence my first comment) so I'm not missing that side of it at all.. for me a true test of skill and fitness is what I think XC should be all about.. recently I've enjoyed watching Nino killing it with superior fitness and more than decent skills, I'd like to see a big shake up (fat chance, I know) to make that the norm but here's what I've always wanted XC racing to be..
Entry to a WC XC round Elite final limited to say 25 riders (lets face it, anyone lower ranked is actually a no hoper at this level) hopefully this should limit the effect somewhat of the first bottleneck and impending pointless strung out line of riders from the first singletrack.. WTF other than his mother wants to watch the guy in 34th position ride 6 laps?
far cleverer, more technically challenging course design (both up and down)..
Penalisation for any rider who gains a place by running (it shouldn't be ****ing cyclo cross) or any rider on foot impeding a riding competetors progress. (ie. can't ride the track GTFO the way!)
Yeah, I know.. I'm dreaming here..

Nah.. haven't watched XCE apart from the first few they ever did which were hilarious in their cringeworthyness.. (will now tho.. cheers!)
I'm actually one of the only guys on this board who is genuinely a fan of 4X and still miss it on the WC scene, Duel was pretty good to watch before that but unlike a lot of you guys I have zero interest in Dual slalom
 

shirk007

Monkey
Apr 14, 2009
499
354
Gary:
I've raced road bikes, I've raced xc, and I raced dh occasionally for a few years. For the genres, I actually enjoyed racing xc and road more than dh. I like having time to use strategies where one little fvck up doesn't completely waste your travel time and money so much.

But xc has gotten to the point that it really is just another fitness contest. I'd say it's even worse that classic road racing because there's even less strategy involved. But it's not representative of what I and a bunch of other people consider mountain biking. Even the races I used to do were on 4-5" travel trail bikes that you could pound through some rocks with, without looking like the ass clenching goons that win UCI world cup races. Their bikes are so roaded out with pinner wheels, pinner tires, pinner 29" wheeled frames.......they're nothing but climbing machines that at best 'survive' a descent just long enough to get to another smooth sustained climb where the races are always won. Even the last two WC courses don't alleviate that principle just because they had one or two short 'sections' that an absolute beginner would stumble on. That's all I'm saying.

Did you watch the cairns XCE? It's a guilty pleasure of mine to watch those hoping for crashes out of the 'gates'. There was a series rollers that started with a stepdown with a nice run in zone. Not a single rider doubled those things up or even attempted the stepdown (which would have been easy). Just doing that would have put like 3 bike lengths on their competitors. But again, it was just a pedal contest which may as well have been done on stationary bikes indoors.
Thus enduro.

I did the XC think back in the early to mid 90's. I've done a few DH events here in BC.

A good enduro course has the best of old school XC and DH. Stages should be 80/20 dh/xc and that xc should not be current butter smooth.

It really is way more fun, also it will reward the riders that take the doubles/step down type terrain you mention above.

From an organizers stand point I would never wade into putting on a DH, but enduro is relatively simple. I am biased as I've never actually owned a real DH bike with dual crowns and been a DH'er, I've been doing what could be considered this new fangled enduro craze since I stopped racing XC in about 96.
 

buildyourown

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2004
4,832
0
South Seattle
XCE is what XC racing should be. The one from Hafjell last year was pretty rad.

I'm not in love with Enduro. It can be fun, but if you make them 80/20 a xc guys with decent technical skills with beat a fit DHer everytime.

I actually see DH growing out here. More bike parks, more legit trails. More families riding DH and going to races together.
 

shirk007

Monkey
Apr 14, 2009
499
354
The first NW cup this year had record attendance, both riders and spectators. Nearly 500 racers, all while the world cup riders were in SA/AUS. DH isn't dead in the PNW.

-KT
I've heard great things about the NW Cup events at PA.

Here in BC it is struggling. A few years back it seemed to have some strong support, but it didn't maintain the momentum.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,536
5,470
UK
The sooner the Enduro fashion parade ****s off the better all round as far as I'm concerned..

Ps. lolz at thinking setting up timing and co-ordinating marshal points for 4 or more stages is easier than a DH race track
 

shirk007

Monkey
Apr 14, 2009
499
354
I'm not in love with Enduro. It can be fun, but if you make them 80/20 a xc guys with decent technical skills with beat a fit DHer everytime.
I'd say that if your "fit DHer" is loosing everytime to the XC guy then he's either not that fit, or just not as strong an overall rider as the XC guy. Perhaps said DH'er would actually loose in a DH to mr XC.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
a true test of skill and fitness is what I think XC should be all about..
Wake me up when the skill part happens. ;)

FWIW I really dug watching the WC 4x races on good tracks. All the idiots whining about no passing and the riders looking like a clown fight seem to have their brains stuck in 2004.


Shirk: the format of enduro races is badass IMO. Definitely a fan. I kept meaning to do a few around here but was reminded of the harsh reality that 'damn, that shlt is expensive!' 70 dollar entry fees hurt.
 

shirk007

Monkey
Apr 14, 2009
499
354
The sooner the Enduro fashion parade ****s off the better all round as far as I'm concerned..

Ps. lolz at thinking setting up timing and co-ordinating marshal points for 4 or more stages is easier than a DH race track
Care to show me a DH capable timing system that compares in cost and use that stacks up against a SportIdent system?

Remote stage starts and ends are a breeze with SI.

I realize it's cool to hate on endurbro because of the lame advertising bs of enduro everything, but when it comes down to it the racing format is great and it allows you to use a greater variety of awesome trails.
 

4gnegative

Chimp
Sep 10, 2010
99
0
Orange Curtain
Here in Socal I don't think DH is dying. With bigbear being big bike friendly again we are seeing a surge in downhill. Also the bike parks in the USA seem to be getting better and more popular every year. Dh racing may be at a lull but if done right we could see sustained growth year after year. I would like to see a california mountain resort DH series with sea otter kicking it off and than move too, in no particular order, big bear, mammoth, and north star.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,536
5,470
UK
Um.. does the number really matter? it's always going to be easier to co-ordinate bodies on one track than multiple tracks, no?
infact, at a properly run UK DH race, even if radio signal was lost completely you could get a message down the entire track in a matter of minutes.
 

shirk007

Monkey
Apr 14, 2009
499
354
Shirk: the format of enduro races is badass IMO. Definitely a fan. I kept meaning to do a few around here but was reminded of the harsh reality that 'damn, that shlt is expensive!' 70 dollar entry fees hurt.
Come to the promise land.

$40 membership + $16 for 8 events = NSMBA Toonie Series.

Last nights winning time was just under 10 minutes of racing over three stages and was one of our shorter nights. The rest are between 11 and 16 minutes each night.
 

shirk007

Monkey
Apr 14, 2009
499
354
Um.. does the number really matter? it's always going to be easier to co-ordinate bodies on one track than multiple tracks, no?
infact, at a properly run UK DH race, even if radio signal was lost completely you could get a message down the entire track in a matter of minutes.
We run two vollies per stage, one start and one finish. Deploy our first aid to a point where they can quickly re-act to any of the stages.

Zero generators or cables or infrastructure on mountain. The start and finish each get an SI control the size of a cell phone. Central sign-in at the bottom of the mountain run off a laptop.

We have just under $3000 in our system and the ability to run 100 racers on three stages. WORCA has the same and we have a sharing agreement on tags. We plan to purchase more tags.

Sponsors cover the insurance and permit costs to run the events, this allows us to plow the membership dollars form people signing up back into the paid trail work projects. Last year we had approx 320 paid members at $50 each.

There are tons of people that are signing up just because of the racing, we'd love if we could say that all of our members paid because they want to support the trails, but the races are a major draw to get them to part with their dollars for trails.
 

shelteringsky

Monkey
May 21, 2010
307
257
Saw this over on PB: http://www.pinkbike.com/news/how-to-save-downhill-racing-2014.html

it really surprised me. I thought DH racing was doing quite well, especially since Redbull stepped up to the plate for coverage. Yeah, some pros have tried their hand at Enduro, but the only ones that stayed with Enduro are old-timers and perennial mid-packers. Enduro is a different beast, not slagging it, it's just different.

I still consider DH the pinnacle of mountain biking. The skill, dedication, and "mental-ness" of it amaze me. Xc racing is road riders on dirt, and Enduro... well, even though Curtis Keene calls it 3 world cup courses stacked one on top of the other and doing 4-6 stages over a weekend, Enduro remains a different game. I remember Cedric being interviewed in Whistler and saying that you come at sections much quicker on a DH bike than a trail bike, and you have to get used to the speed. DH is on another level than Enduro I think.

I agree with the author it's more of a spectator sport than participant for the average rider. So maybe small, local races have less enrollment, but I thought that UCI DHI viewership was up, team budgets were up, and rider skills are constantly evolving too. Maybe it's less popular at the grass-roots level, but I really feel that at the pointy-end of the stick, the product on offer is getting better and bigger.

Am I wrong?
I guess the obvious reasons that would explain a downturn in numbers at DH races would be:
-the cost of racing ($100+ for entrance fee, plus fuel costs getting there etc.)
-tracks are pretty intense these days, people are probably more reluctant to part with a lot of moolah just to ride B-lines
-the 'enduro scene', with its better cost vs. ride time ratio, has captured a decent chunk of the DH market, especially people who still like riding their bikes downhill but don't want to fvck themselves up
-'local factors' e.g. access to decent tracks, number of up-and-coming riders

All that said, I don't think DH is dying. It always has been a bit of a boom and bust sport. We may not see again top riders with Cadillac collections, and gargantuan team buses and coke habits to match but that's not to say that it doesn't have a viable future. There are still plenty of people out there hitting DH tracks on the weekends, and as long as we all get caught up in the latest wheel size crazes and having MOAR SHIMZ, it'll be okay:thumb:
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,536
5,470
UK
Care to show me a DH capable timing system that compares in cost and use that stacks up against a SportIdent system?



forgive me if I've missed something (I'm not too up on fashion related biking) but isn't an SI card timing just an electronic manually inserted dibber system designed for orienteering type use?