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Suspension Nerds! I'm curious to understand super stiff WC suspension

SCARY

SCARY

Not long enough
Apr 6, 2003
1,287
4
I need more of these green square things^^
Is it always faster and is it purely because you skip over rough terrain and don't lose microseconds over every rock?
Is there any famous WC DHR that runs a super SOFT suspension ?
Can you get away with running lower tire pressures with stiffer suspension?
Why is there that much travel if they don't use all of it because how stiff it is?
That's all I can think of right now
 
C

csermonet

Monkey
Mar 5, 2010
942
127
their race pace is putting way more energy into the bike than the average rider, therefore they need the stiffness. if they ran our setup at race pace it would bog them down, they run their bike stiffer but when they are hitting mach chicken it probably feels similar to our softer setup at slower speeds. thats all i can think of right now atleast.
 
William42

William42

fork ways
Jul 31, 2007
3,926
671
SCARY said:
Is it always faster and is it purely because you skip over rough terrain and don't lose microseconds over every rock?
Is there any famous WC DHR that runs a super SOFT suspension ?
Can you get away with running lower tire pressures with stiffer suspension?
Why is there that much travel if they don't use all of it because how stiff it is?
That's all I can think of right now
Click to expand...
When I bounced around on steve peats bike at northstar 2 years ago it felt like pretty normal suspension to me, such that I could push through about 60-65% of the travel just by pushing hard, which is pretty similar on my own bike. Back end felt like your standard pretty soft V10.

I think he was running 10 inches in the back though, and I'm pretty sure they run 8.5 for wc's, so he may normally run the back end stiffer. Who knows about the front.
 
SCARY

SCARY

Not long enough
Apr 6, 2003
1,287
4
I need more of these green square things^^
William42 said:
When I bounced around on steve peats bike at northstar 2 years ago it felt like pretty normal suspension to me, such that I could push through about 60-65% of the travel just by pushing hard, which is pretty similar on my own bike. Back end felt like your standard pretty soft V10.

I think he was running 10 inches in the back though, and I'm pretty sure they run 8.5 for wc's, so he may normally run the back end stiffer. Who knows about the front.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure most of them soften everything up when they aren't racing,just so it's somewhat pleasant .At least this what I've read a couple times
 
supercow

supercow

Monkey
Feb 18, 2009
969
128
In the "Centurion" interview with Greg Minnaar, Jason Marsh said that Greg rides his bike softer than most @ 400 LBS spring, while Steve runs a 500 and Ratboy on a 450.

Those are pretty average spring rates for guys of their size, just Ratboy running it slightly harder for his weight (I'd imagine)
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/the-centurion.html

I know it all depends on the bike etc, but from everything I've read, it seems that the racers do have it stiffer , but not as stiff as we might think. There's only a few guys that run it exceptionally stiffer than most.
 
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frango

frango

Turbo Monkey
Jun 13, 2007
1,454
5
SCARY said:
Can you get away with running lower tire pressures with stiffer suspension?
Click to expand...
From what I noticed on local racers bike, is that they use much higher tire pressure, than regular riders do. Less punctures/snake bites, better cornering, lower risk of tearing tire of the rim, etc

When I tried to ride ca. 2,5 BAR in my tires, I had to stop in the middle of the run and lower pressure :D
 
no skid marks

no skid marks

Monkey
Jan 15, 2006
2,511
29
ACT Australia
Looking at footage it seems that like the rest of us. they run it as stiff as needed to use all the travel without bottoming often. Damping settings would be different to average Joes too.
 
norbar

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,369
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Warsaw :/
frango said:
From what I noticed on local racers bike, is that they use much higher tire pressure, than regular riders do. Less punctures/snake bites, better cornering, lower risk of tearing tire of the rim, etc

When I tried to ride ca. 2,5 BAR in my tires, I had to stop in the middle of the run and lower pressure :D
Click to expand...
What?
 
demo 9

demo 9

Turbo Monkey
Jan 31, 2007
5,910
46
north jersey
Only personal expierience here but we run a local race on the windham track after the wc. I had my bike for 2 seasons set up perfectly for my local races. It plain and simply did not work at windham. I had to bump up a springrate front and rear. As well as add rear damping. The tracks are much much faster and the hits are rougher. I was bottoming out everywhere with a "normal" setup
 
jonKranked

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
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demo 9 said:
Only personal expierience here but we run a local race on the windham track after the wc. I had my bike for 2 seasons set up perfectly for my local races. It plain and simply did not work at windham. I had to bump up a springrate front and rear. As well as add rear damping. The tracks are much much faster and the hits are rougher. I was bottoming out everywhere with a "normal" setup
Click to expand...
having ridden the same track, i'd agree. stuff is more "spaced out" as it is intended to be ridden at much, much higher speeds than mere mortals (or cat 2 riders).
 
demo 9

demo 9

Turbo Monkey
Jan 31, 2007
5,910
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north jersey
For the record that huck to flat could be 20 feet. Its huge!

Will become a bit more mellow this year with a skipper into it to avoid that
 
yd35

yd35

Monkey
Oct 28, 2008
741
61
NY
Pro race suspension is custom valved for Victoria's Secret model firmness. Greg may run a pretty average sounding 400 spring and compression settings, but rest assured, his baseline is probably about twice as hard as yours.
 
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jonKranked

jonKranked

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Nov 10, 2005
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yd35 said:
Pro race suspension is custom valved for Victoria's Secret model firmness. Greg may run a pretty average sounding 400 spring and compression settings, but rest assured, his baseline is probably about twice as hard as yours.
Click to expand...
so what you're saying, is that they have moar shimz?!?s
 
F

fwp

Monkey
Jun 5, 2013
410
400
demo 9 said:
Only personal expierience here but we run a local race on the windham track after the wc. I had my bike for 2 seasons set up perfectly for my local races. It plain and simply did not work at windham. I had to bump up a springrate front and rear. As well as add rear damping. The tracks are much much faster and the hits are rougher. I was bottoming out everywhere with a "normal" setup
Click to expand...
When you went to a higher spring rate, did it throw your sag off? I always wondered if the guys running firmer suspension are anywhere close to the recomended sag? My bike feels faster through the really rough stuff with slightly stiffer spring rates but when I check my sag it is only around 20%?
If I run my bike at 30% sag it feels more plush with better traction but it feels like it doesn't carry speed over the rough stuff as well?
 
gemini2k

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
117
San Francisco
William42 said:
When I bounced around on steve peats bike at northstar 2 years ago it felt like pretty normal suspension to me,
Click to expand...
Steve Peat runs significantly softer suspension that most. It's obvious if you watch the videos. There is a wide range in suspesion stiffness setups. Most of the more old school guys, Peat, Gracia, run softer setups. The newer, and more moto-oriented guys run much stiffer compression damping.
 
demo 9

demo 9

Turbo Monkey
Jan 31, 2007
5,910
46
north jersey
fwp said:
When you went to a higher spring rate, did it throw your sag off? I always wondered if the guys running firmer suspension are anywhere close to the recomended sag? My bike feels faster through the really rough stuff with slightly stiffer spring rates but when I check my sag it is only around 20%?
If I run my bike at 30% sag it feels more plush with better traction but it feels like it doesn't carry speed over the rough stuff as well?
Click to expand...
in theory yes, but it didnt seem to throw it off too badly. i may also have been a hair soft regardless? All i know is that on the WC tracks, at even local pro speed, average set-up wont work. It isnt that their suspension is really any stiffer in preference/set up, it is more that it needs to be stiffer to be usable. I cant even imagine what they have to do for fort william and champery.
 
ianjenn

ianjenn

Turbo Monkey
Sep 12, 2006
3,001
704
SLO
gemini2k said:
The newer, and more moto-oriented guys run much stiffer compression damping.
Click to expand...
Minus the pay, perks and 120 foot triples..

Would Nico have won more Races at 20% sag versus the 50% he used at times? The world may never know.
 
kidwoo

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Aug 25, 2003
42,146
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Squirtin ketchup n' mustard on charred flesh
SCARY said:
I think suspension tech has improved slightly since then.You don't hear about anyone loosening all their spokes to make up for crap suspension, either.
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See? You're old enough to know that's a thing.




But you're not experienced enough to know that not every fast wc racer runs "stiff" suspension over "appropriate suspension"






Weird.
 
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Udi

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
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The average WC shock actually contains over nine thousand individual shims.
 
Gary

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,649
5,562
UK
demo 9 said:
All i know is that on the WC tracks, at even local pro speed, average set-up wont work. It isnt that their suspension is really any stiffer in preference/set up, it is more that it needs to be stiffer to be usable. I cant even imagine what they have to do for fort william and champery.
Click to expand...
"Average set-up"? WTF? is this a "thing" now too..

Sounds ****ing retarded..

Ft William is our local WC track BTW and our local pros speed is fairly regularly top 30 WC finals sorta speed..
 
norbar

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,369
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Warsaw :/
frango said:
Because tires don't flex that much, when you run higher pressure.
Click to expand...
There is less float but the traction is actually lower at higher pressures. I like higher pressures but not for the traction.



As for stiffer being faster didn't Steave M post something about an experiment where a stiffer fork was considerably faster on the same track?
 
demo 9

demo 9

Turbo Monkey
Jan 31, 2007
5,910
46
north jersey
Gary said:
"Average set-up"? WTF? is this a "thing" now too..

Sounds ****ing retarded..

Ft William is our local WC track BTW and our local pros speed is fairly regularly top 30 WC finals sorta speed..
Click to expand...
The tracks by you and the tracks by me vary drastically by the sounds of it. Local east coast tracks are pretty slow and tight. You rarely have to deal with fast big impacts here (relatively speaking) the average speed of aaron gwin in 2012 was 29.7 mph at windham. You can win some local pro races with a 10-15 around here. Dont forget-many of our mountains hardly break 1k vert. Slow rocky and flat are the tracks around here. No reason to run that high springrate unless you are racing windham or other "wc" like tracks

Keep in mind by average set up i mean the sort of thing that rolls off the showroom floor. Have you ever felt the front of neko mulallys bike? The fork is so stiff it hardly moves. I would say that it varies from the trek you buy at the local shop. (Because if it didnt need to be firmer and more agressively set up dont you think they wouldnt do it?)

There is a good article on pb about a year or two where some editor got to ride brendogs scott and wrote all about how it rode like **** until you hammered on it.
 
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Samoto

Samoto

Guest
Dec 16, 2013
402
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SCARY said:
Is it always faster and is it purely because you skip over rough terrain and don't lose microseconds over every rock?
yes. F1 car is faster than rally car.

Is there any famous WC DHR that runs a super SOFT suspension ?
no

Can you get away with running lower tire pressures with stiffer suspension?
Not always, depending on track

Why is there that much travel if they don't use all of it because how stiff it is?
stiff becomes soft at higher speed
Click to expand...
I'm Jesus Gwen's friend so I know a lot.
 
Gary

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,649
5,562
UK
lol

Nah, You couldn't be moar wrong about the variety of tracks, terrain and slow tech we have available to ride in Scotland.. by area Scotland is only around the same size as some of your states so I'd guess if an American were living in Scotland, EVERYTHING here would seem local

Also, You do realise other than a small woods section Fort William DH track is almost entirely manmade with materials brought in and not even typical of the terrain on the hill it was built on

I should maybe have said earlier but I have no idea what a " Local Pro Race" is.. here we have the World Cup, UK Nationals, Nationals (ie Scottish/Welsh/English) and then regional races.. All races are run on the same track in various Categories, with an Elite Cat at each race .. Not all Elite riders are Pros..Most are WC Qualifyingly fast on a good day tho.

No.. I have never felt Neko Mually's bike and can't see me ever wanting to but simply looking at his weight I'd be astonished if his fork were any stiffer than mine.. or does he have custom HULK springs wound for him..
In use unless I severely **** up, I never actually get moar than 7" travel from mine.. (Personal preference, I just hate how long forks feel so run the stiffest spring available)
 
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