Quantcast

Western innovation? Meh...

slimshady

¡Mira, una ardilla!
I was just discussing this issue with a friend, and thought of involving the e-engineering community here to have a broader view of it.

Now that Eurobike and Interbike have passed with more shame than glory, we started thinking about the Taipei show earlier this year, and how many real innovations from the ones featured in EB and IB came from the western and eastern companies. Think for example of those Chosen frictionless hubs or the amorphous titanium welding process some small company from Taiwan presented at IB.

I reckon a trip down the Taipei Cycle Show will certainly bring you almost 97% bulls*it and cheap copies of the consolidated western products, but after seeing Thomson market a set of 2005 Truvativ Stylo cranks as a revolution for the singlespeeders out there, I wonder if all those crazy, wacky, stupid ideas you can find at the Far East are a better incubator for out-of-the-box thinking and genuine invention. If I take a broad look both at IB and EB all I can see is everybody is trying to make all things 650b, even 29ers (because ENDURAH(TM) off course!)

An Argentinian cent for your thoughts, gentlemen!
 
Last edited:

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,573
24,186
media blackout
first off, comparing thomson quality to truvativ is insulting.

second, i think you may be onto something regarding stuff coming out of the far east. as these companies are becoming more proficient at manufacturing and design, they are turning out some of their own ideas that aren't complete crap. one of the most important aspects of a bike part is feasibility of manufacturing. what's the value of an innovative part if it can't be manufactured at a scale that isn't cost prohibitive?
 

slimshady

¡Mira, una ardilla!
About your first point, if it looks like a Stylo crank and it's manufactured in China, I don't give a damn about them being labeled Thomson. Their Ti frames are made by Linksey after all, right? (and many of them have alignment issues).

Now about the second one, I totally agree. Even when the invention process seems to be driven by the motto "let's try every conceivable variation of this thing until we get something actually worth manufacturing and selling", the design/fabrication/marketing costs are certainly lighter in the Far East. Also, the time spent there by offshoring Western companies surely gave them quite a bit of necessary technological and design updates.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,573
24,186
media blackout
About your first point, if it looks like a Stylo crank and it's manufactured in China, I don't give a damn about them being labeled Thomson. Their Ti frames are made by Linksey after all, right? (and many of them have alignment issues).

Now about the second one, I totally agree. Even when the invention process seems to be driven by the motto "let's try every conceivable variation of this thing until we get something actually worth manufacturing and selling", the design/fabrication/marketing costs are certainly lighter in the Far East. Also, the time spent there by offshoring Western companies surely gave them quite a bit of necessary technological and design updates.
didn't catch the part about the cranks being made in china. F-

what benefits them is they work directly with the manufacturing equipment, so they have a better idea of what's feasible from direct experience.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,031
5,921
borcester rhymes
Also I agree with the points on production. Back in the 90s, when people built things here (ha) there were a huge number of manufacturers building things like cranks and stems here in the states. Now that virtually everything is made over there, they're realizing they can potentially cut out the profiteers over here, design their own stuff, and with a little bit of effort, sell it for the same price. It's a great equalizer, hopefully it encourages some production to be shipped back over here.
 

slimshady

¡Mira, una ardilla!
didn't catch the part about the cranks being made in china. F-

what benefits them is they work directly with the manufacturing equipment, so they have a better idea of what's feasible from direct experience.
They fail the 2014 standard of having a removable spider too... Because they are 2005 Stylos :jester:.

Prototyping seems to be the magic word here. That, and trying to come to new approaches/solutions about the same old components we have been using for years. If only we could get them to jump into the gearbox bandwagon...
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,573
24,186
media blackout
fwiw reading the details, only the forging is being done overseas. all machining and finishing will be done in the US
one detail i forgot to add that is critical - running a foundry is effing expensive

edit -
wow i am an idiot. i got casting confused with forging. shouldn't have said foundry, but the forging process is still extremely energy intensive and requires large scale equipment
 
Last edited:

slimshady

¡Mira, una ardilla!
That's where Taichung comes into play. That city is a giant mega-factory. One of my friends went there three years ago invited by Scott to see the whole manufacturing process. And the whole city looks like an assembly line. You have the steel/aluminium/whatever foundries in the outer skirts, and it all comes down through every conceivable aspect of metal manufacturing up to the port, where the containers loaded with finished products get onto the ships...
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,573
24,186
media blackout
That's where Taichung comes into play. That city is a giant mega-factory. One of my friends went there three years ago invited by Scott to see the whole manufacturing process. And the whole city looks like an assembly line. You have the steel/aluminium/whatever foundries in the outer skirts, and it all comes down through every conceivable aspect of metal manufacturing up to the port, where the containers loaded with finished products get onto the ships...
fwiw hope is doing the same thing - forging then machining their cranks. i'm assuming there are still some manfucturers in the UK with forging capabilities.

but yea, agree with your observations. when i was in china, the oil refinery was next to the polymer producer was next to the film converter was next to the thermoformer.
 

Bikael Molton

goofy for life
Jun 9, 2003
4,010
1,146
El Lay
As an outsider, my view would be Taiwan is doing with bicycles what Japan did with consumer motor vehicles (and electronics) a couple decades ago... surpassing the US and other Western countries in a product that they initially "copied" and made poor versions of.
The logical step is that they go to the forefront of R&D soon after reaching the top tier in manufacturing, due to discovering efficiencies in manufacturing as well as seeking to stay ahead of the market so as to give customers what they want, before they know they want it.

I'm still not aware of much quality anything (besides Apple products) being made in mainland China, but as us bikers know, the Taiwan ROC bike industry is very much not the same thing.
 

slimshady

¡Mira, una ardilla!
Re: Hope - I agree, they like to control every aspect of the manufacturing process, and have the necessary pedigree, quality and loyal customers base to justify their top tier prices. Let's hope (no pun intended) more western companies will be able to get into that market slit (CK comes to mind as another good example).
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,552
77
teedotohdot
To answer your question. No.

Innovation is defined as what it is. To take ideas, pioneered by others, and expand, develop, or use them, is in no way to be defined as 'innovative'.

Amorphous titanium welding was pioneered in the US, and continues to be developed in the US. Just because a bike company in Taiwan is going to utilize it in partnership with another company, does not make them 'innovative'. Using it in the cycling industry is also not 'innovative' as structures for other uses were already done. Define 'innovative' better, because a frictionless hub (idea is used elsewhere) and a manufacturing process invented and developed in America isn't it.

In fact, very little is actually industrially 'innovative' at the Taiwan trade show. Maybe seems that way to you, but not to us with over a decade of manufacturing industry experience, like myself ;)
 

jackalope

Mental acuity - 1%
Jan 9, 2004
7,596
5,894
in a single wide, cooking meth...
:o
when i was in china, the oil refinery was next to the polymer producer was next to the film converter was next to the thermoformer.
Holy sh!t, that's nuts, if not impressively pragmatic.

Regarding your analogous auto-industry example, I wonder if they would ever consider moving some production to the US (ala Toyota, BMW, and likely others I'm not aware of) if/when shipping costs start becoming more costly and/or their existing labor costs advantage starts to erode? To say nothing of the potential environmental toll which relatively unregulated foundries, metal finishers, and other intensive industrial processes will eventually exact. I realize they have a lot of the infrastructure in place, but it may not be sustainable ad infinitum for the issues cited above.

In a way, it's interesting to see bike frames with stickers proclaiming "designed in the US, built in Asia" whereas Toyota's are probably still by in large designed in Japan, but many are built in the States.

I'm also still stoked that someone like GG can offer a bad ass bike frame (and build for the matter) for a pretty damn competitive price. There's certainly lower priced options, but not by a substantial amount unless you're talking about a Hob Goblin or something. As for components like stems, pedals, bars, cranks, etc...I certainly see how they still have a huge advantage, altho it would be rad if someone like Twenty 6 remade some sweet Kooka cranks :thumb:

 

slimshady

¡Mira, una ardilla!
To answer your question. No.

Innovation is defined as what it is. To take ideas, pioneered by others, and expand, develop, or use them, is in no way to be defined as 'innovative'.

Amorphous titanium welding was pioneered in the US, and continues to be developed in the US. Just because a bike company in Taiwan is going to utilize it in partnership with another company, does not make them 'innovative'. Using it in the cycling industry is also not 'innovative' as structures for other uses were already done. Define 'innovative' better, because a frictionless hub (idea is used elsewhere) and a manufacturing process invented and developed in America isn't it.

In fact, very little is actually industrially 'innovative' at the Taiwan trade show. Maybe seems that way to you, but not to us with over a decade of manufacturing industry experience, like myself ;)
I get your point. As an outsider who's able to just peek at what's shown in those trade shows by means of what the bike-related sites choose to outline (and that's ultimately driven by their sponsors), the impression I got was wrong. I understand getting out a 650b version of a given fork doesn't (or shouldn't) just involve stretching the 26" version a bit in some Autodesk program. I was trying to outline what by today's media is intended as innovation.

As for the innovative part of the Taipei cycle show, I concur, as others in this thread. Most of the innovation there could be summed up to be bad copies of already existing and consolidated western products. But every now and then you get to see someone who thinks out of the box, or brings an idea not used before in the cycling industry into the game. Again, their design paradigm is at least debatable (I don't support shooting in the dark as a good way of hunting ducks BTW).
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,552
77
teedotohdot
I understand what you're saying though. How our industry seems a bit stale, and even though something has been done elsewhere it's neat to see it start to be utilized in it, and how Taiwan may be quick on the uptake for such things. I agree with that.
 

jackalope

Mental acuity - 1%
Jan 9, 2004
7,596
5,894
in a single wide, cooking meth...
But every now and then you get to see someone who thinks out of the box, or brings an idea not used before in the cycling industry into the game. Again, their design paradigm is at least debatable (I don't support shooting in the dark as a good way of hunting ducks BTW).
I think this is about as outside the box as a married man's dong, which is no small feat -

 

slimshady

¡Mira, una ardilla!
I think this is about as outside the box as a married man's dong, which is no small feat -

... and now you've officially ruined my day by bringing that abortion into the game...

As a side note, that *thing* was designed in Japan, in a University who has Manga-Inspired Industrial Design degrees. Bottomline: you can always trust the Japanese to make anything into a franken-anything...
 

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
117
San Francisco
I'm also still stoked that someone like GG can offer a bad ass bike frame (and build for the matter) for a pretty damn competitive price.
Spoiler alert, it's not as expensive for competent welders and M.E.'s to design and weld up a frame as the big boys would like you to think. Nothing in the design and production costs of aluminum DH bikes justifies most company's prices.
 

jackalope

Mental acuity - 1%
Jan 9, 2004
7,596
5,894
in a single wide, cooking meth...
... and now you've officially ruined my day by bringing that abortion into the game...

As a side note, that *thing* was designed in Japan, in a University who has Manga-Inspired Industrial Design degrees. Bottomline: you can always trust the Japanese to make anything into a franken-anything...
Are you suggesting the Japanese make some weird stuff?

[video]

If you say so...
 

jackalope

Mental acuity - 1%
Jan 9, 2004
7,596
5,894
in a single wide, cooking meth...
Oh I know there's tons of reasonable priced and well designed cranks out there like the Atlas (in fact, I have a set), but I'm assuming they're made overseas versus something lovingly CNC'd over here...I'm looking for something with 'soul', which is to say purple ano, expensive and with a square taper interface.
 

wood booger

Monkey
Jul 16, 2008
668
72
the land of cheap beer
So much fail from the first post, typical internet babble with zero reading comprehension.

1) Seems you missed Onyx Racing. They have a hub that uses a sprag clutch for you true engineers. For the RM crowd it means it has no drag (apart from hub bearings) or sound when freewheeling, and truly instant engagement. Make CK and I9 seem like a joke. Designed and made in the US of A. They are working with Giant (gasp, a TW company!) among others and already had some notable success on the road.

2) RNT which makes the Ti frame mentioned is from South Korea, not TW. I dare you to mention you thought they were from TW, might end up with your sack lopped off. Really cool group of people.

3) Thomson crank. Can't say much about that other than I truly thought it was a joke. Super low end, in TW that would be a $35 OE crank. Thomson may have some machining knowledge, but it is not present in that turd!

4) "Nothing in the design and production costs of aluminum DH bikes justifies most company's prices." Yeah, except the extremely complex hydro-formed tube sets and tooling required to make them. GG ain't doing that in Colorado.

Innovation does exist and thrive in the US/Canada side of the world. But if you think we should bring large scale mfg back to the US, I suggest you visit Taichung (TW), or much worse any of the factory cities in mainland China. I wouldn't want my worst enemy to have to exist in that filthy and toxic landscape.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,573
24,186
media blackout
So much fail from the first post, typical internet babble with zero reading comprehension.

1) Seems you missed Onyx Racing. They have a hub that uses a sprag clutch for you true engineers. For the RM crowd it means it has no drag (apart from hub bearings) or sound when freewheeling, and truly instant engagement. Make CK and I9 seem like a joke. Designed and made in the US of A. They are working with Giant (gasp, a TW company!) among others and already had some notable success on the road.

2) RNT which makes the Ti frame mentioned is from South Korea, not TW. I dare you to mention you thought they were from TW, might end up with your sack lopped off. Really cool group of people.

3) Thomson crank. Can't say much about that other than I truly thought it was a joke. Super low end, in TW that would be a $35 OE crank. Thomson may have some machining knowledge, but it is not present in that turd!

4) "Nothing in the design and production costs of aluminum DH bikes justifies most company's prices." Yeah, except the extremely complex hydro-formed tube sets and tooling required to make them. GG ain't doing that in Colorado.

Innovation does exist and thrive in the US/Canada side of the world. But if you think we should bring large scale mfg back to the US, I suggest you visit Taichung (TW), or much worse any of the factory cities in mainland China. I wouldn't want my worst enemy to have to exist in that filthy and toxic landscape.
you must be new here. internet babble is what we excel at.

1 - yes. we missed onyx. why? because they make BMX hubs, not MTB. For that, i'd point you to True Precision Stealth Hubs.

2 - you talk like they're the yakuza and you owe them money.

3 - most of us glossed it over because it's a single speed kit for doctors and dentists.

4 - big companies = big overhead. it's turning into the road biking arms race of who can make the most expensive bike. not to say that some of the newer technology doesn't come with an increased price tag, but some of it is absurd.

5 - OP never implied or stated that innovation is shrinking from NA or the EU, just that more and more is starting to come out of Asia & the manufacturers, and that is reflected in what's being shown at each regions trade show.
 

marshalolson

Turbo Monkey
May 25, 2006
1,770
519
Oh I know there's tons of reasonable priced and well designed cranks out there like the Atlas (in fact, I have a set), but I'm assuming they're made overseas versus something lovingly CNC'd over here...I'm looking for something with 'soul', which is to say purple ano, expensive and with a square taper interface.
i know RF makes their carbonz crankz here* … pretty sure the atlas/turbine cranks are too.

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Race-Face-Made-in-Canada-2014.html


*not sure if canada counts as "here" or not
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,031
5,921
borcester rhymes
I wonder if anybody has ever truly said "I love the swoopy lines and hydroforming on this frame". I feel like that was an effort by manufacturers to distract people from having to pay easton money for brand name high quality tubesets.

"It may be mush-metal from a chinese dump, but look at the swooooops"
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,573
24,186
media blackout
I wonder if anybody has ever truly said "I love the swoopy lines and hydroforming on this frame". I feel like that was an effort by manufacturers to distract people from having to pay easton money for brand name high quality tubesets.

"It may be mush-metal from a chinese dump, but look at the swooooops"
someone is buying foes frames
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,573
24,186
media blackout
I suggest you visit Taichung (TW), or much worse any of the factory cities in mainland China. I wouldn't want my worst enemy to have to exist in that filthy and toxic landscape.
regarding this point specifically, that's not something isolated to the MTB industry, and is a result of minimal (if any) regulations regarding work safety conditions.

Case in point - i was at a film converter once. They were converting PVC, and not a single worker had a a respirator on.
 

slimshady

¡Mira, una ardilla!
regarding this point specifically, that's not something isolated to the MTB industry, and is a result of minimal (if any) regulations regarding work safety conditions.

Case in point - i was at a film converter once. They were converting PVC, and not a single worker had a a respirator on.
I guess we're all being a little bit hypocritical here, since most of the mass products we consume nowadays come (at least in part) from such places. That's partly why I'm hoping the minimum wage rises in the East will make Eastern local manufacturers competitive again.
 

dump

Turbo Monkey
Oct 12, 2001
8,195
4,419
No. All their CNC machined parts are made overseas. They sold off all their CNC machining production equipment.
Really? Dang, that sucks. I'm currently running a raceface ring that was made in canada...
 

SylentK

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2004
2,287
854
coloRADo
I'm waiting for the east to produce cheap RS Pikes and KS Lev/Reverbs. And a cheap XX1 setup. And a quadracorn. And a double perfect rainbow.