POLL: What could Enduro bikes do better?
- Thread starter Udi
- Start date
There is no one-bike quiver. A jack of all/most trades is going to have to compromise.
weight - sub 30 isn't difficult to achieve, and that's light enough
suspension - design frame to allow use of coil?
stiffness - don't buy shit bike?
SA - real issue, see above
drivetrain - IF ONLY there was a device to allow the use of two chainrings for a massive gearing range
bottles - another real issue, I can fit a small bottle in mine, but I don't. need for standover wins this fight
sizing - real issue, no idea really. a few builders have seen the light and have xs and xl/xxl frames now
edit: I have a new rfx, fwiw
weight - sub 30 isn't difficult to achieve, and that's light enough
suspension - design frame to allow use of coil?
stiffness - don't buy shit bike?
SA - real issue, see above
drivetrain - IF ONLY there was a device to allow the use of two chainrings for a massive gearing range
bottles - another real issue, I can fit a small bottle in mine, but I don't. need for standover wins this fight
sizing - real issue, no idea really. a few builders have seen the light and have xs and xl/xxl frames now
edit: I have a new rfx, fwiw
Hmm, two votes cast so far and we agree 100%.
I'm of the very firm opinion that my unridable Nomad 3 is one of about four AM bikes in existance that doesn't suck balls for enduro racing, but whatever.
In short:
-Progressive leverage rate is an absolute must. However, there are good and bad ways to do it.
-Horst link rear ends are flexy messes if they're not using bushings, and even then it can be bad.
-If your (actual) seat tube angle isn't >74 degrees, it probably sucks to pedal on the seat, and wrecks your knees.
I welcome all flames/justifications for my idiocy.
I'm of the very firm opinion that my unridable Nomad 3 is one of about four AM bikes in existance that doesn't suck balls for enduro racing, but whatever.
In short:
-Progressive leverage rate is an absolute must. However, there are good and bad ways to do it.
-Horst link rear ends are flexy messes if they're not using bushings, and even then it can be bad.
-If your (actual) seat tube angle isn't >74 degrees, it probably sucks to pedal on the seat, and wrecks your knees.
I welcome all flames/justifications for my idiocy.
Agreed, however that doesn't mean we can't have a better compromise - a lot of current frames make compromises in areas that don't actually benefit another area. Steep seat angles don't require much if any sacrifice, and good leverage and squat curves cost nothing (except a good engineer... I guess that's expensive).
Also - putting a coil shock in adds substantial weight, so while it's a good idea, it makes sub-30 (with a strong build) a lot harder to achieve unless you have a frame weight (without shock) of 2.5kg or less. This is part of why I think weight is important - it leaves the option open for real suspension.
I agree, but it's also worth adding that the standard "seat tube angle" measurement that 99% of geometry charts provide is a virtual angle measurement, so it's hard to even compare this properly. Doing it visually is best for now.
Brands like Mondraker provide an actual angle as well as the virtual one which should become standard.
"The Swiss Army Knife" of bikes (remember that phrase) is just that...and, just like enduro:
MAKE ENDURO GREAT AGAIN.
personally I think the biggest thing that enduro bikes need is for customers to be realistic with themselves. Do you really really need a 6" travel bike that can DH at mach stupid on your local IMBA approved XC loop? Consumers need more education, most of the bikes are pretty good. Of course, the same thing is true with shit like fatbikes. A 6500$ bike that's great for beginners? OK.
personally I think the biggest thing that enduro bikes need is for customers to be realistic with themselves. Do you really really need a 6" travel bike that can DH at mach stupid on your local IMBA approved XC loop? Consumers need more education, most of the bikes are pretty good. Of course, the same thing is true with shit like fatbikes. A 6500$ bike that's great for beginners? OK.
As for the SA - what is the desired actual SA nowadays? Also, my saddle has a thing called rails that are worth a few virtual degrees.
the other one I have is cost. It's great that a $9000 bike pedals great and weighs in at 28lbs. Where's its aluminum cousin with non-kashima stanchions and fully adjustable compression valving and functional dropper post?
They should pedal more efficiently and go down hills better
Tire technology needs to continue to improve (more durability without adding much if any weight). Otherwise I think most improvements/changes will be incremental. Bikes are pretty amazing right now and the elite athletes at the highest level of the sport are going to be the ones spurring change based on their needs.
I would like longer reach or shorter seat tube or both for a given size.
Goofy geometry and wagon wheels
I'm not sure what any needs are, I've really no complaints ever since getting this Spitfire v2 frame.
Its not the lightest, but I also don't ever worry about anything on it breaking. Suspension works just about as well as I want it to, it doesn't say ENDURO anywhere on the bike, its not a murder your mom and dog edition, seat position seems fine, drive train is okay (still on 10 speed, 1 chain ring and medium cage derailleur).
The one thing it doesn't have is any sort of method to mount a water bottle. But again, I don' care about that as I never go riding without my hydration pack.
Stuff just needs to cost less, without taking a huge hit in the reliability or functionality. I don't mind spending money on parts when they wear out or break, but jesus why does a Maxxis tire with their 3C compound cost $100+ up here? Why is a chain $40?
Its not the lightest, but I also don't ever worry about anything on it breaking. Suspension works just about as well as I want it to, it doesn't say ENDURO anywhere on the bike, its not a murder your mom and dog edition, seat position seems fine, drive train is okay (still on 10 speed, 1 chain ring and medium cage derailleur).
The one thing it doesn't have is any sort of method to mount a water bottle. But again, I don' care about that as I never go riding without my hydration pack.
Stuff just needs to cost less, without taking a huge hit in the reliability or functionality. I don't mind spending money on parts when they wear out or break, but jesus why does a Maxxis tire with their 3C compound cost $100+ up here? Why is a chain $40?
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YES!!!!! How else will I get away from those lycra wearing weirdos on the wagon wheels?
Setback heads on dropper posts will allow forward placed seat tubes that facilitate steep SAs with tire clearance. For now only a couple (9point8, Specialized) have it.
Not to mention better refinement of tread patterns. There are a LOT of really fucking stupid tread designs out there.
- weight: I'm riding a bike, which used to be the cheap cousin of endurpo and called all mountain when purchased, made of aluminum, on aluminum tiny wheels, Wild Rock'R 2 front tire and 2.5 DHF rear, comes at 30 lbs. No issue for me
- suspension: this is the place for improvement. While the Push piston and the Corset can did help a lot to improve my dilemma of either good small bump absorption but bottoming out all the time or shitty beginning stroke but no clunky-di-poofing, it still is not there yet. So yes, pls better suspension. I mounted a coil again and again but the progressive-digressive Lev rate means compromises as well.
- stiffness: Horst link is flexy. But I it ticks some boxes quite well. So yes, pls better stiffness.
- SA: no issue for me. The Pitch has a rather good geo for its age, no Megatrail or Process 167 but OK.
- drive train: gearbox, thank you. I hate chainsucks
- bottle cage: I can ride with a big bottle and I own a thing called Camelbak for >1.5h rides. Next one.
- sizing: at 5 ft 11 in with rather long legs I never had a problem to find a fitting bike, but I fully understand bigger lads complaining
- Humpty Trumpty was a big fat egg, he was playing the wall and then he broke his neck
- suspension: this is the place for improvement. While the Push piston and the Corset can did help a lot to improve my dilemma of either good small bump absorption but bottoming out all the time or shitty beginning stroke but no clunky-di-poofing, it still is not there yet. So yes, pls better suspension. I mounted a coil again and again but the progressive-digressive Lev rate means compromises as well.
- stiffness: Horst link is flexy. But I it ticks some boxes quite well. So yes, pls better stiffness.
- SA: no issue for me. The Pitch has a rather good geo for its age, no Megatrail or Process 167 but OK.
- drive train: gearbox, thank you. I hate chainsucks
- bottle cage: I can ride with a big bottle and I own a thing called Camelbak for >1.5h rides. Next one.
- sizing: at 5 ft 11 in with rather long legs I never had a problem to find a fitting bike, but I fully understand bigger lads complaining
- Humpty Trumpty was a big fat egg, he was playing the wall and then he broke his neck
Yes to all of the above, and can we have goofy hats that say that?
Seems like everybody I talk to about new bikes only wants an enduro bike, then they bitch that said enduro bike doesn't climb decent and throw a bunch of money and carbon at it. Sure they decend well, but the guy pedaling it still sucks at riding and isn't pushing the limits of what a well sorted 120mm bike can do, forget pushing the limits of a 160mm one. What most people really need is an all mountain or a trail bike, which a few builders have caught on to, but now they're just calling everything an enduro bike and blurring the lines of what's what, making the problem even worse.
However, to the point of this thread, improving Enduro bikes for actual enduro riding. Start with the brakes, then figure out tires.
I think I finally fond brakes I don't hate in my Magura MT5s, but how Shimano and Sram are still struggling with a simply hydraulic brake baffles me. The Maguras work very well, but the levers mount in totally the wrong spot, making my shifter and dropper button locations all jacked up. WTF, it ain't that hard.
Next, tires need to stop sucking, there are approximately 400 options in the 2.3-2.5" width, and only about 7 good ones. It shouldn't be that hard to make a decent tire, and many of them do get close, but then add stupid transition knobs, or put burly DH lugs on a super thin XC casing, it's all just a mish-mash of stupid ideas. People buy them because they're black and round, and because they almost all suck, nobody really has a baseline.
That's it. We are discussing first world problems here. Mind if I throw in a question about KitchenAid blenders in the mix?
Nah, seriously. I live in a third world country. I like riding down gnarly stuff, even when it happens every now and then, when I take a weekend trip to a mountain-equipped landscape. In the meantime, I ride my 6" travel bike down my local trails, and even when I could do better with a short-legged dually, or even a hardtail, I cannot afford to maintain two bikes. So I choose to be overequipped for my local stuff and mildly undergunned when tripping to the real stuff. I can live with a 30-pounder most of the time. Still haven't felt the need to wrap myself in lycra and try to change my last name to "Absalon".
Now, those horrible, lying, seat angle figures are a different story.
I don't think there is one thing all bikes could do better. The problem is every one has a problem somewhere.
Some are too heavy, some too flexy, some lack durability. Others are so damn focused on going down they climb like shit.
Also Enduro is a very wide definition. Do you mean Ews and bikes for the tracks like Mega ? Then the bikes should be rather heavy, longish travel machines. On the other hand if you want a complementary bike to your downhill bike you are looking at something closer to 150mm of travel, 65+ head angle and a nimbler geo + susp so it doesn't take out all the fun on mellower tracks.
Though in most cases there are few bikes that mix lightweight, stiffness, good climbing with great downhill geo and proper sizing. I see too many bikes fall into either long travel xc cathegory or "he will only pedal uphill on mellow fireroads so fuck seattube angles"
Some are too heavy, some too flexy, some lack durability. Others are so damn focused on going down they climb like shit.
Also Enduro is a very wide definition. Do you mean Ews and bikes for the tracks like Mega ? Then the bikes should be rather heavy, longish travel machines. On the other hand if you want a complementary bike to your downhill bike you are looking at something closer to 150mm of travel, 65+ head angle and a nimbler geo + susp so it doesn't take out all the fun on mellower tracks.
Though in most cases there are few bikes that mix lightweight, stiffness, good climbing with great downhill geo and proper sizing. I see too many bikes fall into either long travel xc cathegory or "he will only pedal uphill on mellow fireroads so fuck seattube angles"
Does RM have an app?
I'm long-legged and love the trend toward steeper seat angles to maintain a good climbing position, particularly with a relatively tall saddle height.
Personally I want a reliable dropper post with 175mm of travel. It's great having lots of standover clearance but it doesn't help much if my seat is still too high to comfortably get a foot out moto-style.
Personally I want a reliable dropper post with 175mm of travel. It's great having lots of standover clearance but it doesn't help much if my seat is still too high to comfortably get a foot out moto-style.
Never understood why a website would need an app unless they wanted the ability to hack into your personal phone shit.
Unrideaburu.RM has a vpp.
Hello APP, please feel free to rifle through all of my phone's contacts, pictures, facebook and whatever else you want to do! The permissions that some apps request is insane.
Had a subnet calculator app request that kind of stuff after an update. NOPE, that's immediate grounds for a good ole uninstall and delete.
I think bikes are pretty damn good these days, esp the enduro/trail market. 10 Years ago these bikes we ride on 30 mile rides any WC dh racer would have killed for. If anything, I think we might be able to make the seat tubes a bit steeper and there is probably some more room for drive train performance/innovation.
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You mean Derpalized's bong compartment down tube magic?
The bong compartment is pretty damn awesome, that would be a deciding factor for me if I was looking for a bike and hated packs...I rode one most of the fall and loved it...
Agreed. They're all good enough that people tend to spend hours discussing third order effects, whereas picking one blindfolded would yield an excellent bike.
semi-serious: if only intense would make a fucking crabon version of the second-to-last gen uzzi it would be the ideal do it all bike, at least for me. super adjustible, with a ti-coil shock, decent figures, easy to build rugged close to 30#...170/190 travel... #heaven