Better climbing traction!
POLL: What could Enduro bikes do better?
- Thread starter Udi
- Start date
You guys don't see the problem with winging about bikes being too flexy, whilst also complaining that they're too heavy when you put a coil shock on them? This is why we can't have nice things. Understand that engineering is a matter of compromise. For a given design, stiffness requires more material, therefore it's going to weigh more. It's people winging about weight that has given us forks with 5ccs of lubrication oil in that require rebuilding every second Tuesday and CSU's that have to be replaced every six months despite the manufacturers swearing, "Oh, we totally fixed that this year!"
Idk what you are taking about, just give me a Bluetooth button on my handlebar that says "on" and "off" and a little blue light that turns on.
Enduro is a race format.
Trail bikes are things people ride on that are not xc race bikes, dh race bikes, dirt jump bikes, etc.
The real question IMO is if the people who own elite Enduro race bikes actually need that specialized of a tool to cruise a 15mi xc loop.
The people who race seriously enough to warrant a dedicated Enduro bike understand sometimes you need 2-ply, 8" rotor, & coil --- and sometimes you need semi slicks, 7" rotors, & a remote lockout air shock....
Trail bikes are things people ride on that are not xc race bikes, dh race bikes, dirt jump bikes, etc.
The real question IMO is if the people who own elite Enduro race bikes actually need that specialized of a tool to cruise a 15mi xc loop.
The people who race seriously enough to warrant a dedicated Enduro bike understand sometimes you need 2-ply, 8" rotor, & coil --- and sometimes you need semi slicks, 7" rotors, & a remote lockout air shock....
I think most people know the question to that... then immediately turn around and buy the enduro race bike... because, you know... I want to do some downhill... and drops. :/
Engineering is a bitch that has not given us frames made of carbon-nano-tubes-with-magnets that weight 2lbs incl. coil shock and that can do drops, yet.
Or hoverboards.
I like to think of my creaky CSU as a feature.
Now if only they could make a shock pump-valve interface that didn't puke air upon uncoupling...
Check out the cane creek zero loss shock pump. Not used it myself, but this is what it proports to do.
To be honest I like the idea of it too. As I like the bottom of bottle cage mounted mini tool, lost too many stored in jersey or shorts bags.
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No one's whinging though, that's why this thread is in the form of a poll. It's so that people can choose the things most important to them. I'm surprised that a few people don't seem to understand how democracy works.
Also, there's no reason you can't build a frame that is both stiff and competitive in weight (funnily enough, the current SC VPP frames are a reasonably good example of this - they're strong, stiff, and light).
To continue on the same example, you could improve the suspension performance on those frames substantially without negatively affecting the already good mass / stiffness qualities.
I think it's a relatively common theme to think that compromise is always neccessary, when really, it's just sometimes.
Then you also have to ask why people own 62° HA, super long reach, low BB downhill bikes to ride flow trails in mediocre bike parks and the occasional sports class race?
I ride fairly often with hot for #Enderpo fags.
I'm either on a 32lb 100mm hardtail or a 35lb 120mm slopestyle bike.
I still lose most of 'em on the steeper tight twisty trails on either bike. They catch up on the super rough choppy straights.
Other than shitty 650 wheels I can't see one thing wrong with the most common middle aged #Enderpo bike in these parts. The ironically named YT Capra. Sub 30lb. climbs amazingly. sensible seat angle... infact good at all the other things you mention in geek poll.
'sept matbe waterbottles. Which are not that important you dumb fuck fashion whores.
You're carrying 1&1/2 extra lbs on that bike you payed $6000 to tip your scale at under 30.
it's only a pint and a half of water. Drink 2 before your *pissy little #Enderpo ride.
* It's an extremely rare day you meet an #Enderpo rider who can manage 25miles in the one day
I'm either on a 32lb 100mm hardtail or a 35lb 120mm slopestyle bike.
I still lose most of 'em on the steeper tight twisty trails on either bike. They catch up on the super rough choppy straights.
Other than shitty 650 wheels I can't see one thing wrong with the most common middle aged #Enderpo bike in these parts. The ironically named YT Capra. Sub 30lb. climbs amazingly. sensible seat angle... infact good at all the other things you mention in geek poll.
'sept matbe waterbottles. Which are not that important you dumb fuck fashion whores.
You're carrying 1&1/2 extra lbs on that bike you payed $6000 to tip your scale at under 30.
it's only a pint and a half of water. Drink 2 before your *pissy little #Enderpo ride.
* It's an extremely rare day you meet an #Enderpo rider who can manage 25miles in the one day
Since seat angle is the current poll leader, I thought this was worth sharing:
edit - better pic for @norbar (I quite like the aesthetics personally)
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/mde-damper-2016-review-2016.html
Lots of wins here:
- Excellent seat angle
- Nice progressive leverage curve
- Mint AS curve (would infringe the fuck out of DW patents)
- Triangulated swingarm, potential for good strength/stiffness vs. weight
But then a few misses too, mostly minor:
- 3.0kg with no shock (getting close to modern DH frame weights - an alloy Reign for comparison is 2.5kg with no shock)
- Chainstays are even longer than most current DH bikes at 17.3". Maybe not a huge deal for some, but for a lot of people this means that once they get a bike that fits well (in front-center), the wheelbase is excessively long in tighter corners, which tend to be common outside of full DH tracks.
- BB-height on high side at 13.7", ideally should be ~13.4 for 160mm travel
With how expensive Enduro/Trail/whatever bikes are (with the added dentist tax), I think it's reasonable to be particular about a brand-new purchase.
edit - better pic for @norbar (I quite like the aesthetics personally)
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/mde-damper-2016-review-2016.html
Lots of wins here:
- Excellent seat angle
- Nice progressive leverage curve
- Mint AS curve (would infringe the fuck out of DW patents)
- Triangulated swingarm, potential for good strength/stiffness vs. weight
But then a few misses too, mostly minor:
- 3.0kg with no shock (getting close to modern DH frame weights - an alloy Reign for comparison is 2.5kg with no shock)
- Chainstays are even longer than most current DH bikes at 17.3". Maybe not a huge deal for some, but for a lot of people this means that once they get a bike that fits well (in front-center), the wheelbase is excessively long in tighter corners, which tend to be common outside of full DH tracks.
- BB-height on high side at 13.7", ideally should be ~13.4 for 160mm travel
With how expensive Enduro/Trail/whatever bikes are (with the added dentist tax), I think it's reasonable to be particular about a brand-new purchase.
I agree 100% with this, and as I've said already, a lot of the problems are not dependent on other things - i.e. they aren't necessary compromises, they just exist because the manufacturer doesn't know better. It'd be nice to see these problems ironed out.
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Hey, I don't have to be a good rider to be a good dentist!
It's just some fun off-season tech banter, for whatever it's worth I ride a crappy old rawed alloy frame with antiquated 26" wheels for enderpo.
Jesus that MDE is so butt ugly. 3 or 4 years ago when they were prototyping them MDE guys were staying in the same building as we did in Morzine and the protos looked mint. Why the hell did they hurt their bikes like that?Since seat angle is the current poll leader, I thought this was worth sharing:
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/mde-damper-2016-review-2016.html
Lots of wins here.
- Excellent seat angle
- Nice progressive leverage curve
- Mint AS curve (would infringe the fuck out of DW patents)
- Triangulated swingarm, potential for good strength/stiffness vs. weight
But then the frame weighs 3.0kg with no shock (getting close to modern DH frame weights - an alloy Reign for comparison is 2.5kg with no shock), and the chainstays are even longer than most current DH bikes at 17.3". Maybe not a huge deal for some, but for a lot of people this means that once they get a bike that fits well (in front-center), the wheelbase is excessively long in tighter corners, which tend to be common outside of full DH tracks.
I'm more particular than average (and have some requirements specific to myself), so don't get me wrong - I think this bike seems very nice. For people who don't mind the weight or CS length (trails without many tight corners would be fine) then it's probably well worth a look. However, with how expensive Enduro/Trail/whatever bikes are (with the added dentist tax), I think it's reasonable to be particular about a brand-new purchase.
I agree 100% with this, and as I've said already, a lot of the problems are not dependent on other things - i.e. they aren't necessary compromises, they just exist because the manufacturer doesn't know better. It'd be nice to see these problems ironed out.
When we talked I mentioned Knolly Warden but the frame is rather heavy (3.2kg with an air shock) though they offer a carbon version that gets that down to 2.8kg with db inline. The geo is really nice. Didn't have the chance to test the suspension on anything other than local mellow bermy tracks.
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Rapid-Rise shifting. Can't believe EWS racer's are not proto-typing this. Is like automatic shifting when a climb slams you in the face. Shifts smoother faster and easier, saves loads of ticks on the clock.
If we're playing fantasy, I'd say suspension dampers for sure. Not just because it needs to be 'as good' as what you can get for a dh bike, I want it better than what's on my dh bike. It needs to do a far wider range of duties, and flippy levers aren't that awesome.
The two independently tuned circuits on that push monstrosity seem like a good start. But still that lever...........just so much work. Refined threshold/blowoff circuits where one setting does up and down really really well are my unicorn in the sky.
Tire materials a close second though. I'm actually pretty happy that 7/400 treads are actually good now. That's hUdge!!
Are you guys having problems with Sram's guide brakes? I haven't really been paying attention and don't own any but they seem pretty dialed.
The two independently tuned circuits on that push monstrosity seem like a good start. But still that lever...........just so much work. Refined threshold/blowoff circuits where one setting does up and down really really well are my unicorn in the sky.
Tire materials a close second though. I'm actually pretty happy that 7/400 treads are actually good now. That's hUdge!!
Are you guys having problems with Sram's guide brakes? I haven't really been paying attention and don't own any but they seem pretty dialed.
I have no useful input, other than I tried the Guide rotors. They had no turkey gobble at first, then BAM, they started howling like crazy after one particular ride.
Fantasy? Ah... ok then...
how about just fitting a SWAT/Bong pouch with room for a mediocre rider to sit in while the already pretty damn great bike is ridden by an artificially cloned rider developed to have Graves #Enderpo consistencey, Gwinns chainless speed, Hills cornering, Remi's crazyness, Barnes/Barlel's special line spotting and Lopes topless genes?
how about just fitting a SWAT/Bong pouch with room for a mediocre rider to sit in while the already pretty damn great bike is ridden by an artificially cloned rider developed to have Graves #Enderpo consistencey, Gwinns chainless speed, Hills cornering, Remi's crazyness, Barnes/Barlel's special line spotting and Lopes topless genes?
I sold mine. I had the RS version without contact adjust and the bite point was pretty far into the lever travel, much farther then previous SRAM brakes I've owned. I run my levers close in and on DH runs they were hitting the bar. RSCs with the adjustable bite point may have worked better, but I didn't feel like finding out.
Udi, where did you find the weight of the Reign Al frame? All I can find is one pic of a frame on a scale where it says 3350g with headset, BB and shock, which should translate to roughly 2850-2900g for the frame only:
https://gewichte.mtb-news.de/product-12298/giant-full-suspension-reign-27-5-2-ltd
Still not exactly heavy, but 2500g would be pretty damn light for an Al enduro frame.
Orbea declares a weight of 2.75kg for the frame without shock for the Rallón R4: http://www.iberobike.com/test-orbea-rallon-r4-27-5-una-bici-de-enduro/. I still haven't been able to check the weight of mine, but I'll do it during the next big maintenance.
I spent a solid month and a half on my buddy's capra (top of the line CF one with BOS stuff) after he busted his collarbone. Was definitely interested in it, great geo, climbs decently well for an AM bike, thought the leverage curve was great.
But holy tits is that frame flexy. Not just the rear end, which is normal flexy Horst link mess, but I could feel the front triangle flexing under my not especially large weight just hitting a berm at good speed. Also found out that the leverage curve, while playful initially when you set things up stiff (~15% sag), is uncontrollable in high speed chunder. Drop the air pressure to a plush 30% sag, and chunder was fine, but it lost that playfulness. Never could get it dialed in no matter how I messed with the tune. Then I jumped on an Nomad and it had none of those problems. Best part is I got a stealth black one on closeout, paid less than all of the people who love to brag about how cheap their YTs are.
But, as stated back on page 1, I am probably a drooling idiot and wrong in every way. YMMV.
Looks really interesting. I was thinking about one of the misses, you could run 26" wheels in it, which would bring down the BB height a bit and maybe gain some maneuverability. 3 kg is not super light but not that kind of a problem to me.
What I really appreciate is the price tag when taking into account that it's made in Central Europe!
Probably too late, but the first sentence in the above quote will get you banned on RM, and the second one will get you banned on PB. You'll soon be relegated to MTBR, and nobody wants that.
Nobody asked or cares, but I'm pretty damn happy with my GG MT. I've done exactly one enduro race in my life, and my local trails generally don't require anything other than a well-geo'd hardtail...But then again, I give nano-fucks about going up, and give kilo-fucks about going down and cornering, which happen to be 2 things the MT does particularly well IMO. I've ridden it on 25+ mile rides in Pisgah and it's 30 lb heft has never bothered me thanks to the expanded ranges of newer 1X drivetrains (that and the aforementioned lack of fucks about how fast I get up a hill). My previous bike was a 140 mm trail bike that was probably "better" suited for most of the local stuff I ride in a general sense, but it was less than ideal (for me) on our bigger jumplines and felt pretty damn overwhelmed at man-speed in the chop. It'd be nice to have both, but since that was cost prohibitive, I went with the Hab quiver model: aggro gnartail, MT, and DH bike. And ultimately, I have more fun on my MT than my trail bike, especially on the "drops".
As for what to do better, I think dogboy nailed it. I'd love to see a 750 gramish Wildrock'r 2 that had decent sidewall protection and a solid bead. That and frame mounting options for a pistol and/or RM sourced harpoon (in case I run across a fat biker)
Sweet. Pretty soon we can start using the terms "kit" and "colourways" with our tires.Now people's race wheels can match their race tires.
Im sure in a couple years enduro bikes will do better on all those points, but people will still be reading too much into marginal differences in angles and what not while they arent even close to pushing their bikes to the limits where these small differences might even begin to matter.
I know this is an internet forum and were supposed to talk about shit. And yeah the weathers probably crap where you live and youre not able to leave the house, but at some point we all just need to stfu and ride...
I know this is an internet forum and were supposed to talk about shit. And yeah the weathers probably crap where you live and youre not able to leave the house, but at some point we all just need to stfu and ride...
Very interested in (and surprised by) this...
You don't think it was the stupid (lighter than I'd run 26s) 650 wheels flexing?
Got a few friends with Capras in my size in both Alu and Crabon so I will look def into this next time they lay them down for a few seconds.
I was def running way over 30% sag every time I've swung a leg over a Capra as I'm considerably heavier than their owners. Only very quick rides granted but did not feel any losses in playfulness... just turnyness (stupid wheels).. infact I liked the pop better than my own bike which is kinda made for play and they all manual'd really nicely (considering stupid wheels)
Wife has had a set of RSC's for a year now, I borrowed them for a weekend at Mountain Creek and promptly went and bought myself a set.
I have one weekend on mine. My only complaint is the lever adjuster knobs on mine are finicky compared to hers. Otherwise so far so good.
been on a set of guide ultimates for a couple months. really quite good, no issues. like a shimano with a bit less agressive initial bite (ie, modulation), and without the randomly varying reach.
QFT x2. And I also like hitting drops on my slack 6" travel trail bike, which I'm gathering from this thread, is not RM approved?
Before it is deemed "unapproved", I'm taking Kevin's advice and heading for the trail on my ogre bike...Fuck off dropz, here I come!