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Long travel 29er forks

Wuffles

Wuffles

Monkey
Feb 24, 2016
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So does anyone make a 29er fork at 170 or 180mm travel? Between the Wreckoning, the new Slash 29er, and the presumably-soon-to-be-announced new Endurpo 29er, it seems like there's definitely a niche for it that's going underserved. Luke Strobel is doing the custom thing with his 180mm Fox 40 on the NW Cup, but that's one of the perks of being a pro.

I know we're probably reaching into stupid long A-C numbers with this kind of fork, but a 65 degree HA 29er is kind of already there in terms of awkward low-speed handling, so why not go for it?
 
4130biker

4130biker

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Dual crown makes more sense when things get high up front due to the relative lower stack compared to a single crown. Here's this:
image.jpeg
 
Sandwich

Sandwich

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man, i was waiting to see a wreckoning with a dorado. I agree, above 160 and you're in dual crown territory. Stack heights on LT 29ers are ridiculous.
 
4130biker

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Sandwich said:
Stack heights on LT 29ers are ridiculous.
Click to expand...
True- and I forgot, dual crown would help with the massive leverage and reduce creaking crowns?
Is there much of a weight penalty to go dual crown for enduro forks?
Seems like a fairly logical next step, but I think it's mainly about perception.

I did an awful lot of XC and DH riding with my Super T back in the day, and I don't recall any switchback I couldn't make due to reduced turning radius.
 
Wuffles

Wuffles

Monkey
Feb 24, 2016
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4130biker said:
True- and I forgot, dual crown would help with the massive leverage and reduce creaking crowns?
Is there much of a weight penalty to go dual crown for enduro forks?
Seems like a fairly logical next step, but I think it's mainly about perception.

I did an awful lot of XC and DH riding with my Super T back in the day, and I don't recall any switchback I couldn't make due to reduced turning radius.
Click to expand...
I shudder to suggest it, but does this mean the Lefty suddenly has a valid use on an AM bike again?
 
Jm_

Jm_

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Jan 14, 2002
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Wuffles said:
So does anyone make a 29er fork at 170 or 180mm travel? Between the Wreckoning, the new Slash 29er, and the presumably-soon-to-be-announced new Endurpo 29er, it seems like there's definitely a niche for it that's going underserved. Luke Strobel is doing the custom thing with his 180mm Fox 40 on the NW Cup, but that's one of the perks of being a pro.

I know we're probably reaching into stupid long A-C numbers with this kind of fork, but a 65 degree HA 29er is kind of already there in terms of awkward low-speed handling, so why not go for it?
Click to expand...

I don't think the travel of those bikes justifies 170mm, more like 160. Perhaps with newer generations that may change, but 29ers are limited pretty severely by the big-ass wheel and the seat post. You literally can't have much more than 6" of travel because the wheel ends up IN the seat and your bunghole, especially with any normal type sized chainstays. Sure, some may squeeze out a bit more travel, I think Lenz did the PB&J at 170mm, but it's a stretch.

I did the long travel 29er thing for a few years. Fun and I definitely think 29ers can be a great bike in this way, but I don't think a 150 or 155mm frame really justifies a 170mm fork yet, but at that point, yes, definitely need dual crowns, the bending stresses and binding on a 29er fork of that size is immense comparatively.

The Enduro 29er just mows over stuff at the park, which is nice. Wheel-catcher hole? No problem, just ride on through. Big dropoff that you can't safely boost off of? Just ride off it. Great in that way, but obviously slower in medium radius turns at speed, the faster you go the harder it is to turn and stay on a line (without being pulled to the outside of the turn). Chutes and tight stuff is generally not a problem with modern geometry.

If you really want to set up a 29er DH bike, the PB&J is the only I know of that really fits the bill at this point. Everything else is going to be way over-forked with something like that 180 custom fork and even with a 170mm it's going to be a stretch IME.

If you are trying to put the 170mm fork on because at the park your bike isn't "DH enough", it really means you need a DH bike IMO (I raced the E29 many times), PB&J or one of the many 27.5 choices.
 
Sandwich

Sandwich

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4130biker said:
True- and I forgot, dual crown would help with the massive leverage and reduce creaking crowns?
Is there much of a weight penalty to go dual crown for enduro forks?
Seems like a fairly logical next step, but I think it's mainly about perception.

I did an awful lot of XC and DH riding with my Super T back in the day, and I don't recall any switchback I couldn't make due to reduced turning radius.
Click to expand...
it would certainly reduce stress on the lower crown. Don't know about the weight penalty...the 36 is what, 4.6lb, and the 40 float is 6.0? Shrink the stanchions down a bit, reduce the sheer size of the damper and shit...who knows?

Wuffles said:
I shudder to suggest it, but does this mean the Lefty suddenly has a valid use on an AM bike again?
Click to expand...
could be! the lefty has a weird crown setup. Don't know about the stack height with the second crown up above. You may be able to run a DM stem to get the bars low on a normal triple, but it'll be tough on a lefty.
 
4130biker

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Sandwich said:
also, the lefty will never be viable until it gets a real damper.
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Don't they fit dampers from fox and RS? I guess that's not necessarily saying much.
Kinda suprised Avalanche hasn't jumped on an upgrade for the lefty. Seems like a lot of those long travel ones, and I've heard good things about the chassis.
 
Sandwich

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4130biker said:
Don't they fit dampers from fox and RS? I guess that's not necessarily saying much.
Kinda suprised Avalanche hasn't jumped on an upgrade for the lefty. Seems like a lot of those long travel ones, and I've heard good things about the chassis.
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nah, last I knew they had a proprietary damper and an RS Solo air cart. Hard to replicate for a regular person, stacked on top of each other like that.
 
4130biker

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Sandwich said:
nah, last I knew they had a proprietary damper and an RS Solo air cart. Hard to replicate for a regular person, stacked on top of each other like that.
Click to expand...
Seems like a challenge for sure, but I don't know if I'd classify Craig from Avalanche as a "regular person" based on what he can do...
Anyway, back to long travel 29 forks!
 
Jm_

Jm_

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4130biker said:
Seems like a challenge for sure, but I don't know if I'd classify Craig from Avalanche as a "regular person" based on what he can do...
Anyway, back to long travel 29 forks!
Click to expand...
I'd say no way in hell. Craig deals in easily modifiable stuff, not one-off closed carts or super proprietary, I can't imagine there'd be enough volume to make the tooling/programming/parts worth it.
 
Wuffles

Wuffles

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Feb 24, 2016
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Jm_ said:
I don't think the travel of those bikes justifies 170mm, more like 160. Perhaps with newer generations that may change, but 29ers are limited pretty severely by the big-ass wheel and the seat post. You literally can't have much more than 6" of travel because the wheel ends up IN the seat and your bunghole, especially with any normal type sized chainstays. Sure, some may squeeze out a bit more travel, I think Lenz did the PB&J at 170mm, but it's a stretch.

I did the long travel 29er thing for a few years. Fun and I definitely think 29ers can be a great bike in this way, but I don't think a 150 or 155mm frame really justifies a 170mm fork yet, but at that point, yes, definitely need dual crowns, the bending stresses and binding on a 29er fork of that size is immense comparatively.

The Enduro 29er just mows over stuff at the park, which is nice. Wheel-catcher hole? No problem, just ride on through. Big dropoff that you can't safely boost off of? Just ride off it. Great in that way, but obviously slower in medium radius turns at speed, the faster you go the harder it is to turn and stay on a line (without being pulled to the outside of the turn). Chutes and tight stuff is generally not a problem with modern geometry.

If you really want to set up a 29er DH bike, the PB&J is the only I know of that really fits the bill at this point. Everything else is going to be way over-forked with something like that 180 custom fork and even with a 170mm it's going to be a stretch IME.

If you are trying to put the 170mm fork on because at the park your bike isn't "DH enough", it really means you need a DH bike IMO (I raced the E29 many times), PB&J or one of the many 27.5 choices.
Click to expand...

This is all hypothetical, I don't actually own a FS 29er at the moment.

Really what I want to do is fab my own frame, 170-180mm travel 650b rear end with a corresponding 29er front end. I'm becoming convinced that matching front and rear wheel sizes, just like matching front and rear tires, is not necessarily optimal for bike design, and the longer travel you go the more apparent this becomes. I agree a 29er rear end imposes a shit ton of limitations on what you can do, going to 650b makes life way easier, I'd just like to keep a 29er front end for plowability.
 
Jm_

Jm_

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Wuffles said:
This is all hypothetical, I don't actually own a FS 29er at the moment.

Really what I want to do is fab my own frame, 170-180mm travel 650b rear end with a corresponding 29er front end. I'm becoming convinced that matching front and rear wheel sizes, just like matching front and rear tires, is not necessarily optimal for bike design, and the longer travel you go the more apparent this becomes. I agree a 29er rear end imposes a shit ton of limitations on what you can do, going to 650b makes life way easier, I'd just like to keep a 29er front end for plowability.
Click to expand...
Maybe, for everything but big downhills and downhill racing, I prefer 29. I'd be interested to see if the limitation of the rotating mass with just the front is significant. In medium radius turns I lose speed with 29ers because the gyroscopic stability drags you outside of the apex and without slowing, you skid off the trail and possibly crash. Moving down to 650, I've placed 2nd in the recent enduro race and I was never getting that high with my E29 on the DH stuff. Still, the idea is interesting and has merit. Foes does a mixer bike.
 
Wuffles

Wuffles

Monkey
Feb 24, 2016
157
98
Jm_ said:
Maybe, for everything but big downhills and downhill racing, I prefer 29. I'd be interested to see if the limitation of the rotating mass with just the front is significant. In medium radius turns I lose speed with 29ers because the gyroscopic stability drags you outside of the apex and without slowing, you skid off the trail and possibly crash. Moving down to 650, I've placed 2nd in the recent enduro race and I was never getting that high with my E29 on the DH stuff. Still, the idea is interesting and has merit. Foes does a mixer bike.
Click to expand...

The Foes Mixer was what got me looking at it in the first place. Got a chance to demo one (the enduro version), and it was kind of terrible honestly, but I'm pretty sure that was due to geometry and suspension design more than mixed wheel sizes (CS and seat angle being the biggest offenders). I'd like to see how one with better geometry and suspension design would work.
 
mykel

mykel

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Apr 19, 2013
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Liteville does the same thing.
They mix 24-29" wheels depending upon frames size..
This is not a new concept. I played around with building a 24" front with a 20" rear as a kid in the 70's
 
Wuffles

Wuffles

Monkey
Feb 24, 2016
157
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mykel said:
Liteville does the same thing.
They mix 24-29" wheels depending upon frames size..
This is not a new concept. I played around with building a 24" front with a 20" rear as a kid in the 70's
Click to expand...
The Liteville frames are smexy for sure. 601 doesn't have a mix n' match option for 29er/650b though. I'm sure they'd have done it if the fork existed to do it with.
 
CheetaMike

CheetaMike

Monkey
Jul 17, 2016
229
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Whonnock BC Canada
couple years back I used to regularly bump into one of the engineers from Norco out for his daily shred , and for a while there he was riding a 29r/650b combo he called his frankenbike . as for dual wheel sized bike,s been there before with the good ole 26/24 combo from the late 90,s early 2000,s .
 
Sandwich

Sandwich

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I did the 26/24 combo...worst of both worlds IMO. I guess I'd try again just because "Why not" but there aren't a lot of DH compatible 29er front ends out there.
 
CheetaMike

CheetaMike

Monkey
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no seems like 26 and 27.5 are the true dh wheel sizes

26/24 worked great on bikes with 68deg head tube angles . 24/24 made for go-kart handling and when combined with a 3" or 2.6" tire they worked real well , talk about low BB heights though
 
Sandwich

Sandwich

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CheetaMike said:
no seems like 26 and 27.5 are the true dh wheel sizes

26/24 worked great on bikes with 68deg head tube angles . 24/24 made for go-kart handling and when combined with a 3" or 2.6" tire they worked real well , talk about low BB heights though
Click to expand...
back in the day that was the shit though. I remember changing my BMW from 24/24 to 26/26 and it rolled so much better, but it jacked the BB up to like 15".

Then people (DW) figured out how to make bikes handle, and you can get all the steering with appropriate wheel size.
 
Sandwich

Sandwich

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I would love that. I do thunder as often as possible. I don't get out that much anymore, but would love to get back to plattekill someday. I had a 14year streak, but a now 3 year old broke it!
 
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