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New Tantrum Cycles Video

Tantrum Cycles

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
I just finished this new video. It shows some of the unique properties of the Missing Link Suspension, including the ability to jump up and down on the bike with the suspension fully extended a NO shock. And how a rearward force on the tire, as it would when hitting a bump, activates the Missing Link, even with high pedaling force.

Some on this forum have speculated that it must be very harsh in the first part of the travel. There is some stop motion climbing and downhill root and rock garden action that shows how plush it is off the top, when fully extended. This also shows how well the rear tire tracks the rough terrain, while the rider floats above.

 
William42

William42

fork ways
Jul 31, 2007
3,926
671
Has @kidwoo tested it yet?

But seriously, I'd try it out, I like trying out different bikes even when I'm not confident I'd like them. I like the idea of a stable bike when it comes to pedaling. I'm dubious that it would be able to maintain its height in the travel and not pack up over the fun parts of the trail (the downhill parts) but I'd at least give it a shot.
 
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SDet

SDet

Monkey
Nov 19, 2014
150
42
Boulder Co
So, it's a toggle. Similar to the Santa Cruz (v10?) where you could accidentally get the rocker to flip and lock the suspension at top out. Except, you're doing it intentionally, and pulling on the rear end works as a force to flip over that toggle point so the suspension can move. Okay. What effects does braking have, or hits under hard climbing?

I'm starting to get this idea more, but I'm far from sold.
 
Tantrum Cycles

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
William42 said:
Has @kidwoo tested it yet?

But seriously, I'd try it out, I like trying out different bikes even when I'm not confident I'd like them. I like the idea of a stable bike when it comes to pedaling. I'm dubious that it would be able to maintain its height in the travel and not pack up over the fun parts of the trail (the downhill parts) but I'd at least give it a shot.
Click to expand...
If it had a tendency to pack up (down?), it would do it in that rock garden. You would see the rear wheel leave the ground as it couldn't respond fast enough to the repetitive hits.
 
Tantrum Cycles

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
SDet said:
So, it's a toggle. Similar to the Santa Cruz (v10?) where you could accidentally get the rocker to flip and lock the suspension at top out. Except, you're doing it intentionally, and pulling on the rear end works as a force to flip over that toggle point so the suspension can move. Okay. What effects does braking have, or hits under hard climbing?

I'm starting to get this idea more, but I'm far from sold.
Click to expand...
I have not done that particular test with a SC, so not sure about that. But, you cannot lock the suspension out at topout, ever, really. Only as long as the climb is steep enough and there are no bumps. But even then, it's not really locked out, just waiting for a bump or less of a climb to proceed into the travel.

For hits under hard climbing, look at the root climb of that video. That climb is absolutely max effort in a 30-40 gear. Even then, I'm about 1 for 3 in terms of clearing it. Those roots are big, off the ground and slippery. You can see the shock at full extension, right before the impact. Then, the two roots are absorbed, traction is maintained, climbing geometry and pedaling response are retained.

Braking activates the Missing Link like a bump does. The rearward force on the wheel makes it easier to compress the shock, so it slackens out and goes into the travel, but retains bump absorbing ability.
 
SDet

SDet

Monkey
Nov 19, 2014
150
42
Boulder Co
I suspected it would squat under braking. Hmmm. Might have to give it a shot. Doing any events in the Midwest?
 
T

trib

not worthy of a Rux.
Jun 22, 2009
1,480
422
I'm impressed you're still trying to get people on board with the bike after some pretty negative initial encounters.

Whether the bike works for everyone or not it seems to offer something.

Best of luck to you (but please hire a designer)
 
Adventurous

Adventurous

Starshine Bro
Mar 19, 2014
10,341
8,896
Crawlorado
What I learned from your video is that a little pressure on the pedals will keep the bike locked out, until you remove that pressure and you put a big fucking ding in the back of the seat tube and chain stay arch. I :rofl:'d at that.
 
boostindoubles

boostindoubles

Nacho Libre
Mar 16, 2004
7,879
6,177
Yakistan
Best be getting your bikes out and under people who are indifferent to your Kool aid.

Endless banter on the merits of your design will only work against you around here.
 
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Tantrum Cycles

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
Adventurous said:
What I learned from your video is that a little pressure on the pedals will keep the bike locked out, until you remove that pressure and you put a big fucking ding in the back of the seat tube and chain stay arch. I :rofl:'d at that.
Click to expand...
Right before I did that, I looked into the camera and said" don't try this at home, frame damage can occur"

I was a little wary jumping up and down on the pedals with no shock after that
 
Tantrum Cycles

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
I'm gonna set up a few demo spots this fall. The Denver area is always a good base nd it's a hour flight, so it's high on the list. I'd like to do something between eurobike and interbike, but that's crazy time.

What size bike do you ride?

The extension limit of the shock is the travel limiter. Same as every other bike in this regard..
 
Adventurous

Adventurous

Starshine Bro
Mar 19, 2014
10,341
8,896
Crawlorado
Tantrum Cycles said:
Right before I did that, I looked into the camera and said" don't try this at home, frame damage can occur"

I was a little wary jumping up and down on the pedals with no shock after that
Click to expand...
I don't blame you though I wish you left the sound in there so I could have some audio feedback to compliment the visual carnage.
 
Tantrum Cycles

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
trib said:
I'm impressed you're still trying to get people on board with the bike after some pretty negative initial encounters.

Whether the bike works for everyone or not it seems to offer something.

Best of luck to you (but please hire a designer)
Click to expand...
Hi Trib, I just look at it as normal when introducing something that, apparently, shakes certain belief systems to their core. I probably could have done better dealing with the initial uproar (duh), but we know that the loudest protesters are seldom the most important. Along with the haters are logical people that are willing to at least entertain the possibility that there is something new under the sun. And have an open enough mind to take a look at what I'm presenting and see if it makes sense. Forget the jargon and graphs and statistics.

Some won't like the bike just for the extra complication. I'm fine with that. I mean, there's always single speed rigid...

But if you value pedaling and climbing along with descending prowess, with a wider range than previously possible, you will like this bike.

As for hiring a designer, I'm guessing you mean graphics....just picked up the frame from paint for Eurobike to put the new graphics on........
 
Tantrum Cycles

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
Adventurous said:
I don't blame you though I wish you left the sound in there so I could have some audio feedback to compliment the visual carnage.
Click to expand...
Wasn't much there. A couple invectives hurled. An embarrassed laugh. Relief when I remembered that the tire makes contact slightly before ss bridge to seatpost. This cushioned it enough that there was no mark. If the tire wasn't there, there woulda been a lot more swearing. Possibly throwing things. Maybe even a fvcking tantrum.
 
Westy

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,434
20,235
Sleazattle
Adventurous said:
What I learned from your video is that a little pressure on the pedals will keep the bike locked out, until you remove that pressure and you put a big fucking ding in the back of the seat tube and chain stay arch. I :rofl:'d at that.
Click to expand...
I learned that the suspension will move if you plow into a big root at speed, groundbreaking.
 
Tantrum Cycles

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
hmmm, what you were supposed to learn is that, at the time of plowing in to the root while climbing, the suspension is at full extension and full STIFFNESS. But it will still move when you hit the root.

This is contrary to what a bike will do that is relying on high anti squat. On such a bike, it is necessary to relax a bit on the pedaling pressure, to let the inevitable counter rotation of the crank to occur in order for the suspension to compress and let the wheel over the bump. Otherwise, loss of traction from non compliance is the likely result.
 
Westy

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,434
20,235
Sleazattle
Tantrum Cycles said:
hmmm, what you were supposed to learn is that, at the time of plowing in to the root while climbing, the suspension is at full extension and full STIFFNESS. But it will still move when you hit the root.

This is contrary to what a bike will do that is relying on high anti squat. On such a bike, it is necessary to relax a bit on the pedaling pressure, to let the inevitable counter rotation of the crank to occur in order for the suspension to compress and let the wheel over the bump. Otherwise, loss of traction from non compliance is the likely result.
Click to expand...

Generally in that scenario I would hop over the root, takes less energy than trying to pedal through it. Different strokes for different folks. I'd be more concerned in how it works during slow slogs over smaller roots where you need the suspension to help maintain momentum and traction.
 
Tantrum Cycles

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
Westy said:
Generally in that scenario I would hop over the root, takes less energy than trying to pedal through it. Different strokes for different folks. I'd be more concerned in how it works during slow slogs over smaller roots where you need the suspension to help maintain momentum and traction.
Click to expand...
that root is not fast. There is a slight dh/level approach that lets you spin up a bit, but it takes everything I have in a 30/40 gear to clear it. At that, I'm running about 1 for 3 success ratio. Nobody will be hopping over these roots. And there is not much chance of finessing. You need all of your leg strength and can't afford to back off at all, even for traction.

So, while it is just a short section, (mostly for ease, convenience of filming) it sounds exactly like the terrain you are referring to. No way to get up it without max effort and a little help from the suspension.
 
Flo33

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
2,067
1,306
Styria
Tantrum Cycles said:
that root is not fast. There is a slight dh/level approach that lets you spin up a bit, but it takes everything I have in a 30/40 gear to clear it. At that, I'm running about 1 for 3 success ratio. Nobody will be hopping over these roots. And there is not much chance of finessing. You need all of your leg strength and can't afford to back off at all, even for traction.

So, while it is just a short section, (mostly for ease, convenience of filming) it sounds exactly like the terrain you are referring to. No way to get up it without max effort and a little help from the suspension.
Click to expand...
I just watched the video and especially the root climbing part in slow mo. The rider is clearly shifting his body and COM forward to allow the rear wheel to climb over the roots - all the same everybody not a full hack is doing when climbing such a section. I miss to see something special here?
 
Tantrum Cycles

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
Flo33 said:
I just watched the video and especially the root climbing part in slow mo. The rider is clearly shifting his body and COM forward to allow the rear wheel to climb over the roots - all the same everybody not a full hack is doing when climbing such a section. I miss to see something special here?
Click to expand...
Hi Flo, The point I am trying to show is that the Missing Link has the ability to, simultaneously, extend the rear shock to full extension, giving the best possible climbing geometry, with infinite spring stiffness, BUT, paradoxically, offer instant response to bump input. Yes, i am shifting my weight as any rider would, but if you watch the shock view, you can see it easily compresses for those roots, even though I'm still cranking as hard as I can, and the shock is at full extension beforehand.
 
Flo33

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
2,067
1,306
Styria
Tantrum Cycles said:
Hi Flo, The point I am trying to show is that the Missing Link has the ability to, simultaneously, extend the rear shock to full extension, giving the best possible climbing geometry, with infinite spring stiffness, BUT, paradoxically, offer instant response to bump input. Yes, i am shifting my weight as any rider would, but if you watch the shock view, you can see it easily compresses for those roots, even though I'm still cranking as hard as I can, and the shock is at full extension beforehand.
Click to expand...
Ok, thx for the response. What is going to happen, when you have to ease up just before the roots, say your pedal/crankarm position is sub ideal and you have to stop pedaling or reverse a bit?
 
norbar

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,369
1,605
Warsaw :/
To be honest I'd be much more curious how the suspension performs when going down than up. The topic of discussion has never been whether it will pedal good but that too much pressure was put on pedaling and too little on traction and stability when not pedaling.


Also weren't you all about accurate measurements? Because it seems to me you are trying to use a video as a form of suspension analysis while discrediting photo analysis.
 
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Flo33

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
2,067
1,306
Styria
That's why I mentioned the stop of pedaling. My guess(!) is it will eat travel quite fast.
 
Tantrum Cycles

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
Flo33 said:
Ok, thx for the response. What is going to happen, when you have to ease up just before the roots, say your pedal/crankarm position is sub ideal and you have to stop pedaling or reverse a bit?
Click to expand...
Flo, well on that particular climb, if you stop, you fall. I clear those roots about 1 out of 3 or 4 tries. It takes everything.

On a less of a climb, not really much different, if you ease up on the cranks, it really depends on how much. If you are still climbing at a decent effort, it will act the same. If the hill is starting to flatten out, the bike will sink slowly back to sag, while still feeling quite stiff. The feeling of a stiff rear suspension is always there while pedaling on smooth terrain. The extension only occurs while climbing.
 
Tantrum Cycles

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
norbar said:
To be honest I'd be much more curious how the suspension performs when going down than up. The topic of discussion has never been whether it will pedal good but that too much pressure was put on pedaling and too little on traction and stability when not pedaling.


Also weren't you all about accurate measurements? Because it seems to me you are trying to use a video as a form of suspension analysis while discrediting photo analysis.
Click to expand...
that's why I put the DH and non-pedaling parts of the video. It might not be readily apparent unless you are used to analyzing suspension action with videos, but basically, a good suspension will allow the wheel to track the ground, while the chassis/frame/rider remain relatively still. If the Missing Link was unable to respond to terrain, you would see the back wheel kicking up everywhere. For example, an opinion has been rendered here about how a low starting leverage ratio would be very stiff and non compliant off the top. If you watch closely, you can see that, even when the shock is at full extension, it responds instantly to the next bump with no upset to the rider. If it was too stiff, you would see it kick.

Accurate measurements? Sure. If one is attempting to do a detailed mathematical analysis and doesn't want to look like a fool with meaningless results, I always prefer accurate measurements.

I am not drawing mathematical conclusions with the video, just trying to show what really happens in a way anyone can see and understand. In the end, the math doesn't matter, the ride does.,
 
Tantrum Cycles

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
Flo33 said:
That's why I mentioned the stop of pedaling. My guess(!) is it will eat travel quite fast.
Click to expand...
the pedaling action raises the sag above normal, lack of pedaling returns it to static sag level. No additional travel is used or needed.

The rock garden shows that. Those rocks are big enough to use all of the travel and then some. And with repetitive hits, it's a perfect place to show a suspension that would pack down and/or blow thru travel
 
Flo33

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
2,067
1,306
Styria
Tantrum Cycles said:
the pedaling action raises the sag above normal, lack of pedaling returns it to static sag level. No additional travel is used or needed.

The rock garden shows that. Those rocks are big enough to use all of the travel and then some. And with repetitive hits, it's a perfect place to show a suspension that would pack down and/or blow thru travel
Click to expand...
Hmm, you have me thinking...

I just disagree with you on
Tantrum Cycles said:
In the end, the math doesn't matter, the ride does.
Click to expand...
because I want to know how and why stuff works. And I may quote my mechanics of materials teacher here, "One should never ever forget the engineer's language, Mathematics!"
 
norbar

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,369
1,605
Warsaw :/
Tantrum Cycles said:
that's why I put the DH and non-pedaling parts of the video. It might not be readily apparent unless you are used to analyzing suspension action with videos, but basically, a good suspension will allow the wheel to track the ground, while the chassis/frame/rider remain relatively still. If the Missing Link was unable to respond to terrain, you would see the back wheel kicking up everywhere. For example, an opinion has been rendered here about how a low starting leverage ratio would be very stiff and non compliant off the top. If you watch closely, you can see that, even when the shock is at full extension, it responds instantly to the next bump with no upset to the rider. If it was too stiff, you would see it kick.

Accurate measurements? Sure. If one is attempting to do a detailed mathematical analysis and doesn't want to look like a fool with meaningless results, I always prefer accurate measurements.

I am not drawing mathematical conclusions with the video, just trying to show what really happens in a way anyone can see and understand. In the end, the math doesn't matter, the ride does.,
Click to expand...
Sorry but no. You can't analyze suspension with videos of someone riding. You don't know their shock and fork setup, weight and you don't notice all the body positions of the rider. Analyzing suspension performance through video is even more inaccurate than the criticized by you extrapolating leverage curves from photos. I just find it ironic that someone who is a self proclaimed champion of suspension modeling accuracy demonstrates their suspension by a movie where we get limited data on many variables which you didn't provide.

And if the suspension is too stiff but the shock is setup to compensate for that it will not be noticeable. Also in the end math describes the ride so I'm not sure how they can be separate.
 
norbar

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,369
1,605
Warsaw :/
Tantrum Cycles said:
the pedaling action raises the sag above normal, lack of pedaling returns it to static sag level. No additional travel is used or needed.

The rock garden shows that. Those rocks are big enough to use all of the travel and then some. And with repetitive hits, it's a perfect place to show a suspension that would pack down and/or blow thru travel
Click to expand...
So are they big enough or are they not?
 
Tantrum Cycles

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
Flo33 said:
Hmm, you have me thinking...

I just disagree with you on because I want to know how and why stuff works. And I may quote my mechanics of materials teacher here, "One should never ever forget the engineer's language, Mathematics!"
Click to expand...
While your teacher was partially correct, he is also partially responsible for the arrogance of engineers, with that incomplete statement. It needs to be followed up with something like

"Math is man's best attempt to predict the behaviour of nature. It is severely flawed. It is dependent on many flawed "assumptions" (guesses) before you can even solve the equation (perfectly rigid links and frictionless joints, anyone??). Even the equations end up with endless "fudge factors" to get the answer to match nature."

Do you know that engineers can prove that a Harley engine cannot run? That a bumblebee can't fly? That a baseball pitcher cannot throw a rising fastball?

Math is good for a lot of things, but when it disagrees with nature, bad things can happen. Nature is never wrong.
 
Westy

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,434
20,235
Sleazattle
Tantrum Cycles said:
While your teacher was partially correct, he is also partially responsible for the arrogance of engineers, with that incomplete statement. It needs to be followed up with something like

"Math is man's best attempt to predict the behaviour of nature. It is severely flawed. It is dependent on many flawed "assumptions" (guesses) before you can even solve the equation (perfectly rigid links and frictionless joints, anyone??). Even the equations end up with endless "fudge factors" to get the answer to match nature."

Do you know that engineers can prove that a Harley engine cannot run? That a bumblebee can't fly? That a baseball pitcher cannot throw a rising fastball?

Math is good for a lot of things, but when it disagrees with nature, bad things can happen. Nature is never wrong.
Click to expand...
You clearly do not understand math or science





Math is nature, and unless you are trying understand the both the massive and subatomic simultaneously modern math sufficiently accurate for something as simple as a bike.
 
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Tantrum Cycles

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
Westy said:
You clearly do not understand math or science





Math is nature, and unless you are trying understand the both the massive and subatomic simultaneously modern math sufficiently accurate for something as simple as a bike.
Click to expand...
keep believing math is nature........

If bike's are so simple, why, after decades and billions of dollars with hoards of engineers, has the problem of combining pedaling efficiency with bump performance, never really been solved? Not for lack of engineers , math or money
 
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Tantrum Cycles

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
norbar said:
Sorry but no. You can't analyze suspension with videos of someone riding. You don't know their shock and fork setup, weight and you don't notice all the body positions of the rider. Analyzing suspension performance through video is even more inaccurate than the criticized by you extrapolating leverage curves from photos. I just find it ironic that someone who is a self proclaimed champion of suspension modeling accuracy demonstrates their suspension by a movie where we get limited data on many variables which you didn't provide.

And if the suspension is too stiff but the shock is setup to compensate for that it will not be noticeable. Also in the end math describes the ride so I'm not sure how they can be separate.
Click to expand...
Extremely good points about all the variables involved. Do you think they might apply to a mathematical analysis as well? Well, not really if you're starting with bad numbers, then they don't matter at all.

I never claimed the videos were analysis. They are a demonstration. You don't need to analyze why to see what's happening. I also NEVER claimed or selfproclaimed or had any one else claim to be a champion of suspension modeling. You must have me confused with vrock or udi or one of the others here that will tell everyone what every suspension design on earth must be doing wrong.

Are you saying that you could compensate for a stiff leverage ration with shock adjustments as to make the LR unnoticable? By the opinions presented by the experts here, that is not possible
 
Tantrum Cycles

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
norbar said:
So are they big enough or are they not?
Click to expand...
Some of the rocks and roots in my video are larger than 160 mm. So yes, they are big enough to use all of the travel available. However, if you set the bike up to do so, it would plunge thru the travel, pack down and be bad. The video shows that while the bumps are absorbed enough to maintain traction, tire contact and rider stability, it does not blow thru the travel.
 
Flo33

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
2,067
1,306
Styria
Tantrum Cycles said:
While your teacher was partially correct, he is also partially responsible for the arrogance of engineers, with that incomplete statement. It needs to be followed up with something like

"Math is man's best attempt to predict the behaviour of nature. It is severely flawed. It is dependent on many flawed "assumptions" (guesses) before you can even solve the equation (perfectly rigid links and frictionless joints, anyone??). Even the equations end up with endless "fudge factors" to get the answer to match nature."

Do you know that engineers can prove that a Harley engine cannot run? That a bumblebee can't fly? That a baseball pitcher cannot throw a rising fastball?

Math is good for a lot of things, but when it disagrees with nature, bad things can happen. Nature is never wrong.
Click to expand...
Ok, so forget about my quote and please be so good and help me understand the Missing Link.
 
norbar

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,369
1,605
Warsaw :/
Tantrum Cycles said:
Are you saying that you could compensate for a stiff leverage ration with shock adjustments as to make the LR unnoticable? By the opinions presented by the experts here, that is not possible
Click to expand...
No. I am not claiming you can do it to get the same performance but I do claim you can make it so does the bike behaves a certain way if you set it up a certain way. It will suck for riding but it will look good on a video presentation. Not knowing shock setup is what makes it hard to derive any info from that video.
 
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