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Violence against protesters

MikeD

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
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chez moi
I am incensed, honestly. This is sickening. It's so bad I didn't even make a cutesy thread title. The guys in green shirts have pistols and earpieces, and the guys in the suits seem to have matching lapel pins, indicating they are likely not civilian "counter-protesters," but Turkish government goons engaged in violent, illegal suppression of protected speech within US borders.

http://www.voanews.com/a/3853930.html


I'm sure the President will admire, er be *horrified* at this activity and take appropriate action.
 
Nick

Nick

My name is Nick
Sep 21, 2001
24,036
14,648
where the trails are
I saw that this morning and thought the same.
The entire entourage should be immediately removed from the country, but instead they're probably all enjoying diplomat privilege.
 
MikeD

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,679
1,725
chez moi
To have immunity from criminal acts, technically, one must be on the approved diplomatic list and thus permanently assigned to the host nation in an official diplomatic capacity. Visiting security does not qualify for that. Even if you have immunity, such as security personnel assigned to the embassy, you can be summarily expelled and declared persona non grata.

Interestingly, some personnel have criminal immunity only for official acts, which would force the Turks to assert their tacit approval of the abuse to avoid prosecution.

However, it wouldn't be unheard-of to put off prosecution in lieu of expulsion, as the counterpart nation has our diplomatic staffs and families within their borders, who can be subject to harassment or worse in retaliation. So there's that to consider. I would think this incident would result in expulsion, significant limitations on Turkish security personnel numbers, possibly elimination of permission to be armed in public (which can be violated by those with immunity, should they care to...), etc. But that also means we will see our people subject to the same or worse, plus possible direct victimization in several forms by the Turkish government...

Edit: Also know that this isn't the first such incident in the US for the Turks.
 
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Silver

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
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Probably deserved it. Like the Kent State kids did.

You lay down with dictators, you end up with some of their fleas. Remember when Pinochet's goons set off a car bomb in DC?
 
Sandro

Sandro

Terrified of Cucumbers
Nov 12, 2006
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This same stuff has happened before Trump, also without any consequences. Turkey is going down the drain, their free press is gone, the entire civil service has been purged of anyone critical of the regime and now the Turks (narrowly) voted to turn their country into an autocracy. Pretty ironic that the election result depended on the Turkish expats and dual nationals living in Europe's liberal democracies overwhelmingly voting to transform the country they do not live in into a dictatorship. Erdogan hates the EU so much he is even cosying up to Turkey's arch nemesis Russia. Yet again, Putin must be loving this.
 
MikeD

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,679
1,725
chez moi
There have been several incidents with Turkish security before, but nothing of this magnitude or wanton disregard for personal rights. Of course, this latest must be seen as part of the growing trend; it can't be written off as an isolated incident. But I don't put the occurrence itself on Trump at all. I do find it odd that the White House gave a brusque "no comment" on it, of course, and have my suspicions that he's just wishing his own security was as pro-active...


Ironically, the Turkish .gov's thought is pretty much "we'd violently crush any dissent which criticized the US in Turkey, especially during any official visit, so why are you so negligent and rude as to allow it to happen against us?!" Literally just a clash of world-views. This is why our values must remain intimately connected to our foreign policy, Secretary Tillerson...!
 
Nick

Nick

My name is Nick
Sep 21, 2001
24,036
14,648
where the trails are
Turkish 'security guards' being welcomed by Dutch police.



D.C. police should have these guys lined up, disarmed and in cuffs. (yes, I know that would never happen)
 
MikeD

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,679
1,725
chez moi
Well, and I think that goes towards an answer to the issue. Should be as many nations as possible summarily banning Turkish security from within their borders based on an international pattern of disregard, not just one nation or another.
 
Sandro

Sandro

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In Europe and within Nato, Turkey's unique position both militarily and in regards to the refugee crisis has meant that foreign leaders have been alarmingly quiet about Erdogan's domestic policies and provocations. I mean, he publicly called Merkel a Nazi and was suing German satirists while at the same time using the country's protection of free speech to campaign on German soil for the eradication of pluralism in Turkey. Thin skinned autocrat that he is, the irony was probably lost on him.

Now that the referendum is over and EU membership for Turkey should finally be off the table, i'm hoping for a firmer stance towards Turkey, as the Dutch have occasionally demonstrated. The small margin of the referendum also gives me some hope that Erdogan's power base isn't nearly as solid as he hopes. The new constitution won't become law until 2019 and he and his party will have to make it through a general election before that.

And yet, i'd much prefer Turkey to be closely aligned with Europe and the West than have it turn into another failed state on Europe's periphery waiting to be absorbed into Russia's sphere of influence. Thus i'm hoping for cool heads and thoughtful Realpolitik when dealing with Turkey.
 
Sandro

Sandro

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Pesqueeb said:
Like Michael Flynn? :tinfoil:
Click to expand...
Preferrably not from people on Russia's payroll. I'd assume most of the EU Nazis currently in power besides Kaczinsky and Orban aren't in Vlad's pocket. The resuslts of the Dutch and French elections are something to be thankful for.
 
stoney

stoney

Part of the unwashed, middle-American horde
Jul 26, 2006
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Supposedly the State Dept is actively "investigating" and trying to identify the individual foreign nationals involved in the attacks. As for the American's arrested, I have a feeling those charges are going to quietly get dropped.
 
StiHacka

StiHacka

Compensating for something
Jan 4, 2013
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In hell. Welcome!
Sandro said:
Preferrably not from people on Russia's payroll. I'd assume most of the EU Nazis currently in power besides Kaczinsky and Orban aren't in Vlad's pocket. The resuslts of the Dutch and French elections are something to be thankful for.
Click to expand...
I would not be as sure. And even if the leaders's aren't, I am sure many instrumental people in their power structures are.

The Turkish diaspora in EU is in an interesting position. They can vote in both EU and Turkey, they are the fastest growing population (if I am not mistaken), they'll eventually open the door to EU for Erdogan just like the Sudetenland nazis did it for Hitler in 1938, all Turkey needs it patience.
 
Pesqueeb

Pesqueeb

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Feb 2, 2007
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stoney said:
Supposedly the State Dept is actively "investigating" and trying to identify the individual foreign nationals involved in the attacks. As for the American's arrested, I have a feeling those charges are going to quietly get dropped.
Click to expand...
Or, Twittler sends them all to Gitmo for inconveniencing one of his facsist buddies.
 
Sandro

Sandro

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StiHacka said:
The Turkish diaspora in EU is in an interesting position. They can vote in both EU and Turkey, they are the fastest growing population (if I am not mistaken), they'll eventually open the door to EU for Erdogan just like the Sudetenland nazis did it for Hitler in 1938, all Turkey needs it patience.
Click to expand...
They are gonna have to wait a hell of a long time and pray that all other ethnicities exclusively piihb from now on as only 1.4% of the 512 Million people in the EU are of Turkish heritage.
 
StiHacka

StiHacka

Compensating for something
Jan 4, 2013
21,560
12,505
In hell. Welcome!
Sandro said:
They are gonna have to wait a hell of a long time and pray that all other ethnicities exclusively piihb from now on as only 1.4% of the 512 Million people in the EU are of Turkish heritage.
Click to expand...
Yes, but they are nowhere near as disciplined. Western Europe is Western Europe's worst enemy.
 
Sandro

Sandro

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So how is that tiny minority going to facilitate EU membership for Turkey? Sure, a lot of Turks are patriotic to the point of delusion about their nation's standing, but still half the country voted against Erdogan's power grab amid rampant propaganda, voter suppression and without a free press. I suppose there is some truth to the old trope of complacency and lethargy in the liberal West, but i don't see how this will lead to an insignificant number of Turks taking the reins in Europe. The emergence of the new populist far right movements supported by Putin, particularly in Eastern Europe is far more dangerous than a few Turks in their nationalist fervor.

The likes of Putin, Le Pen and Wilders actually do have an agenda, while the paradox with Erdogan is that he badly needed to paint the EU as the enemy in order to gain support for his domestic policies while at the same time wanting to be part of it. I seriously believe that there is a good chance that he won't last and that Turkey will eventually return to Atatürk's laicist legacy. I don't see them becoming part of the EU anytime soon, but I would strongly advocate to keep the door open for a "priviliged partnership" and support the significant democratic forces within the country.

To get there, Turkey's representatives will need to start playing by the rules, which takes us back from this derail (mea culpa) to the original topic of the thread. There has to be some way to sanction this type of behaviour, no? I guess it doesn't help that Trump probably loves this type of strongman aggression.
 
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