Thoughts on secondary wheelsets?

jonKranked · Sep 27, 2017

would you be swapping tires/rotors/cassette?

jonKranked · Sep 27, 2017

that's kind of the thing, i've done it in the past, both swapping components (generally not tires, but rotors and/or cassette) and not, and i found that if you're going to be swapping wheels frequently, don't bother unless each set is gonna be complete (tires/cassette/rotors), and rotors are same size so you're not swapping adapters.

if you'd only be doing an infrequent changeover (couple times of year) then it's less of a concern.

jonKranked · Sep 27, 2017

i was in a similar situation with the MT. the wheels i first had are spank oozy on hadleys, then i picked up the M70's on I9's. like 20g heavier for the set. so now the spank/hadley's are a backup set. i have a set of mavic 325's that are DH worthy and was gonna get another set of hubs to build up a DH wheelset for the MT. but i decided it was stupid to have 3 wheelsets for the bike. So i'm gonna lace the 325's back to the hadleys (lucky me the 325's and oozys have the same ERD so its an easy rim swap).

dump · Sep 27, 2017

Always nice to have a backup set. In practice, I almost never used the backup except in case of catastrophic failure... in which case, it did save some time. I have some nice 26" wheels sitting in my garage getting almost no usage over the last 5 years. As you mentioned on the used market, nobody wants to pay for them.

jonKranked · Sep 27, 2017

dump said:
Always nice to have a backup set. In practice, I almost never used the backup except in case of catastrophic failure...

i did it when i raced DH and the "backup" set was more my mud wheels, kept mud spikes mounted on them.

jonKranked · Sep 27, 2017

dump said:
I have some nice 26" wheels sitting in my garage getting almost no usage over the last 5 years. As you mentioned on the used market, nobody wants to pay for them.

whatchoo got?

StiHacka · Sep 27, 2017

I have two rear wheels for my trail bike - one with a lighter build / lighter & faster tire (currently Michelin Force AM), one with 36 spokes, a beefier narrower rim and a more aggressive heavier tire. Each has its rotor and a cheap 10sp SunRace cassette. It takes me 30s to swap the wheels so I do it quite often - fast & light wheel for group rides and more XC stuff, burly & aggressive wheel in the slop or when sessioning drops or bigger tech.
I don't bother with the front wheel though - I never destroyed one, and I ride on front tires that work reasonably well in all situations.

Electric_City · Sep 27, 2017

Keep them for when you sell the bike.

FlipSide · Sep 27, 2017

In the good old days before the gazillion standards, I had 2 sets for every bike. It was really nice, but as it has been mentioned in this thread, it is important that they require zero part swap.

I would also add that it is really important to use moar shimz to space out the rotors as needed so that the rotor lines up perfectly in the caliper without any need to adjust it. Shimz FTW again!

Happymtb.fr · Sep 27, 2017

Swapping parts is less of a hassle if the hubs are the same. I have 2 rear wheels one with a Dt350 hub and the other with a Dt240, both are centerlock. I actually use only one body and move it with the cassette from one hub to the other, it is quite easier to swap this way than removing the cassette. And since the hub have the same dimensions I don't need to readjust the derailleur or the caliper.

Having different hubs move the question to: is it easier to swap disks and cassette with readjustment or to swap tires?

dump · Sep 27, 2017

jonKranked said:
whatchoo got?

1. dtswiss 240 on dtswiss ex500
2. hope pro single speed/trials wheelset w/ crazy engagement on dt ex500
3. e13 chub 15mm on dtwiss ex500

And much like the last five years, it's better to just continue to hang onto them in the off chance that I break a wheel than sell them for $100 or whatever.

SylentK · Sep 28, 2017

I've been swapping from 29 to 27.5 on one of my bikes. Same concept. Only thing I manually move is the cassette. Which gives me a chance to give it a good cleaning (looking at it from the bright side). The shimming of the rotor is a great idea. I usually have some break rub after a swap. Overall I'd say it's easier than switching tires. I hate that. All the freaking goo. Sometimes they don't inflate ^^, etc....

FlipSide · Sep 28, 2017

SylentK said:
I've been swapping from 29 to 27.5 on one of my bikes. Same concept. Only thing I manually move is the cassette. Which gives me a chance to give it a good cleaning (looking at it from the bright side). The shimming of the rotor is a great idea. I usually have some break rub after a swap. Overall I'd say it's easier than switching tires. I hate that. All the freaking goo. Sometimes they don't inflate ^^, etc....

Check out the Syntace disc shims. They are pretty much perfect for than. I never needed more than 3 shims to have perfect alignment. Usually 1 or 2 is sufficient.

I hear you on hating switching tires. A great source of joy and satisfaction in my life is when I remove a tire for the 1st time just to throw it away because it is worn out.

Jm_ · Sep 28, 2017

profro said:
I swear I have been approaching the hate of tubeless asymptotically. As you mention, the mess, the effort and the increasing inability to seal a cut. I effectively have had the same number of "issues" (pinch flat with tube vs. cut tire tubeless) whether it was tubes or now tubeless. However with a tube I either replace or patch and I move on down the trail. With tubeless its a mess followed by many tries to inflate with either a pump or a CO2. Spin, get sealant in face, inflate, spin, get sealant in face, inflate, curse, try plug, inflate, spin, get sealant all over hands, curse, give up and stick a tube in with all the sealant and make an even bigger mess.... and why is tubeless any better?

You are doing it wrong, when you get a cut in the tire, tubeless or tubed, you put a fresh tube in with a hard/tough boot. You don't screw around trying to fix tubeless on the trail, because it never goes flat from the stuff it's designed to take. A cut/gash is not something it's designed to take, so you aren't going to re-setup tubeless after that.

Then at home you sew it up and put a patch on the inside. Plugs work for punctures, kinda. I find that they seem to have a narrow window where they'll work and where you need to just do a boot and tube, otherwise the tire will seal.

Too many cut tires means you are using too light of a casing. You need tougher tires. This really reached a breaking point a little more than 10 years ago when lightweight casings pushed out to 2.3-2.5", that was slash city.

kidwoo · Sep 28, 2017

profro said:
I swear I have been approaching the hate of tubeless asymptotically. As you mention, the mess, the effort and the increasing inability to seal a cut. I effectively have had the same number of "issues" (pinch flat with tube vs. cut tire tubeless) whether it was tubes or now tubeless. However with a tube I either replace or patch and I move on down the trail. With tubeless its a mess followed by many tries to inflate with either a pump or a CO2. Spin, get sealant in face, inflate, spin, get sealant in face, inflate, curse, try plug, inflate, spin, get sealant all over hands, curse, give up and stick a tube in with all the sealant and make an even bigger mess.... and why is tubeless any better?

1. Ironically stans (the biggest proponent of tubeless in ye old days) rims suck for sealing tubeless, especially with maxxis

2. If you tear a tire setup tubeless, don't waste your time trying to get it seal. It won't work. Just put a tube in

3. haha

Jm_ · Sep 28, 2017

kidwoo said:
1. Ironically stans (the biggest proponent of tubeless in ye old days) rims suck for sealing tubeless, especially with maxxis

2. If you tear a tire setup tubeless, don't waste your time trying to get it seal. It won't work. Just put a tube in

3. haha

I had some specialized "tubeless" rims. Kinda like stans. Then I got some carbon rims and it was like "oh, this is how it's supposed to work". Not to be a carbon snob, but the rim profiles seem to be a match made in heaven for tubeless, vs. those early stans and spec rims that were kind of a joke for tubeless.

But yeah, a gash/cut is something that tubeless can't deal with, tubeless resists small punctures, thorns, needles, etc.

Udi · Sep 29, 2017

profro said:
I swear I have been approaching the hate of tubeless asymptotically. As you mention, the mess, the effort and the increasing inability to seal a cut. I effectively have had the same number of "issues" (pinch flat with tube vs. cut tire tubeless) whether it was tubes or now tubeless. However with a tube I either replace or patch and I move on down the trail. With tubeless its a mess followed by many tries to inflate with either a pump or a CO2. Spin, get sealant in face, inflate, spin, get sealant in face, inflate, curse, try plug, inflate, spin, get sealant all over hands, curse, give up and stick a tube in with all the sealant and make an even bigger mess.... and why is tubeless any better?

I mentioned exactly this in a thread recently and got laughed at, but that's the truth.

I spent last summer in a household of pretty fast riders who were constantly messing around with everything you describe. Tubeless is a poor solution to a problem that needs to be dealt with in a far more elegant way. There's nothing elegant about fixing a tubeless failure with a tube only to have to go home and clean up the mess and essentially "fix" it twice. What a collossal pain for very little functional benefit.

The only people I've seen tubeless work for successfully are:
a) People running way too much pressure, i.e. sacrificed traction
b) People who are pretty slow and/or riding terrain that isn't very rocky (not DH)
c) Very recently, people using CC with it - but IMO while the performance and reliability are substantially improved, the solution is still less than elegant and the setup / replacement hassles have a long way to go.

Anyway, I think the dual wheelset is a great idea - just cough up for a cassette and rotors like jonKranked said, otherwise I wouldn't bother.

jonKranked · Sep 29, 2017

Udi said:
The only people I've seen tubeless work for successfully are:
a) People running way too much pressure, i.e. sacrificed traction
b) People who are pretty slow and/or riding terrain that isn't very rocky (not DH)

i've been having good luck with tubeless. but i'm sort of a blend of #1 and #2. i run moderately high pressure (~30psi, but i'm a bigger dude) and only on my trail bike. i don't think i'd set up my DH bike with tubeless.

manhattanprjkt83 · Sep 29, 2017

profro said:
I swear I have been approaching the hate of tubeless asymptotically. As you mention, the mess, the effort and the increasing inability to seal a cut. I effectively have had the same number of "issues" (pinch flat with tube vs. cut tire tubeless) whether it was tubes or now tubeless. However with a tube I either replace or patch and I move on down the trail. With tubeless its a mess followed by many tries to inflate with either a pump or a CO2. Spin, get sealant in face, inflate, spin, get sealant in face, inflate, curse, try plug, inflate, spin, get sealant all over hands, curse, give up and stick a tube in with all the sealant and make an even bigger mess.... and why is tubeless any better?

I can't say I have such a horrible experience with tubeless as yourself, but they can be annoying even if your setup is dialed. These were brought to my attention earlier this week and I am seriously thinking about yanking my tubeless setup and running them to make things easy again...Esp happy about zero air bleed.

https://www.singletracks.com/blog/mtb-gear/tubolito-tpu-tubes-weigh-50-less-2x-strong-regular-bike-tire-tubes/

manhattanprjkt83 · Sep 29, 2017

jonKranked said:
. i don't think i'd set up my DH bike with tubeless.

Ya I am in the same boat, 180 and don't f with tubeless on the DH bike...I did have to walk down the hill at whistler last week with a flat though. :twitch:

jimw · Sep 29, 2017

I have 2 wheelsets that I swap out on my "one bike" that I use for both trail and DH park. The trail wheels see most of the action, the DH wheels only come out at the bike park and sometimes not even then. I swap the cassette when swapping wheels. In a case like this, where one wheelset is getting substantially more use than the other, the cassettes will wear at a much different rate. So you ride your trail wheelset every day for 3 months, then you swap in your DH wheels with brand new cassette, and suddenly the shifting sucks, the chain is noisy, etc. I had separate cassettes on each at first and that's what I ran into. It's not hard to swap the cassette, hint, use 2 chain whips and a stuck cassette doesn't stand a chance.

Rotors similarly will wear at different rates, but not as big a deal there, just push the pistons back in when swapping wheels and let them re-auto-adjust with a few pulls of the lever. Also with post-mount it's not a big deal if the alignment isn't exactly the same between wheels. Loosen caliper bolts, squeeze lever, tighten caliper bolts, done.

You will probably also need to tweak the rear derailleur barrel and maybe limit screws when swapping. This also is simple and should be the same every time, so you can just figure it out once and then next time just blindly do the same adjustments and should be good.

Jm_ · Sep 30, 2017

I have two wheelsets for my fat bike, a 65mm I use for racing and summer riding (due to less rim width exposure) and a 90mm I put the biggest fat tires on for most of my winter riding. The narrower setup is around 1.75lbs lighter, so significant, but this makes a lot of sense for a fatbike, as conditions are so radically different at times, hardpack vs soft snow.

For my RFX, I have a backup rear wheel I have built up with a spank oozy rim and SLX hub. This is in case I crack my rear rim. I only used it once originally after I cracked due to running too low pressure and hitting a sharp rock on a g-out. Nothing would have held up to that hit, so that's just the normal cost of doing business. The backup wheel is if my hub or rim go to crap at some point, but I like to have a few options for common failures, so derailleurs, cassettes, brakes, are things I sometimes keep on hand for an emergency, usually when I upgrade and the previous part isn't totally clapped out.

I'm considering building some flyweight carbon rims for my xc bike for next year, that would be a secondary wheelset, 280g rims vs current 400g, but that'd be race-day only and not what I'd run on the 100 mile endurance races.

I don't see a need for an entire extra wheel set for my main bike, the RFX.

Gary · Sep 30, 2017

What the hell is FATBIKE racing?

<EDIT> Nevermind. I googled it and found a pic of the English champion crossing the line.

Scottish Champ

and World Champ

kidwoo · Sep 30, 2017

That is NOT enough cone!!!

dump · Sep 30, 2017

Jm_ said:
I have two wheelsets for my fat bike,

The exit is that way....

<------------

Jm_ · Sep 30, 2017

Gary said:
What the hell is FATBIKE racing?

<EDIT> Nevermind. I googled it and found a pic of the English champion crossing the line.

Scottish Champ

and World Champ

It involves drinking, inflatable animals, fire, what's not to like?

troy · Sep 30, 2017

Jm_ said:
It involves drinking, inflatable animals, fire, what's not to like?
View attachment 126657
View attachment 126658

slimshady · Sep 30, 2017

Jm_ · Sep 30, 2017

Don't make me go E-bike on you.

Gary · Sep 30, 2017

Jm_ said:
It involves drinking, inflatable animals, fire, what's not to like?

Hmmm... shit bikes? shit trails? MEN? and an inflatable aligator?

There's not enough BEER on the planet to save that party.

but yes... FIRE!!

Jm_ · Sep 30, 2017

Gary said:
Hmmm... shit bikes? shit trails? MEN? and an inflatable aligator?

There's not enough BEER on the planet to save that party.

but yes... FIRE!!

There was also a Finding Nemo fish and I'm pretty certain some blow-up-dolls.

slimshady · Oct 2, 2017

The tube lizardry is strong with this thread...

Flo33 · Oct 2, 2017

manhattanprjkt83 said:
I can't say I have such a horrible experience with tubeless as yourself, but they can be annoying even if your setup is dialed. These were brought to my attention earlier this week and I am seriously thinking about yanking my tubeless setup and running them to make things easy again...Esp happy about zero air bleed.

https://www.singletracks.com/blog/mtb-gear/tubolito-tpu-tubes-weigh-50-less-2x-strong-regular-bike-tire-tubes/

TPU or thermoplastic urethane tubes is rather old news. Panaracer did them ca. 1995-2000, can't remember the name. Schwalbe did an announcement a few years ago but stopped them. They were called Aerothan.

They are rather problematic because they are not very elastic. You have to find the absolute right dimension for a specific tire. Even manufacturing tolerances are often too much. Is the tube too small, it will burst, is it too big, it will crease (hope that's the right term) and wear down very fast. Good luck with the variations in tire sizing between different manufacturers.
A puncture on the other hand can be fixed easily, simply use a cyanacrylate glue/adhesive.

Thoughts on secondary wheelsets?

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