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Bearing knowledge

Electric_City

Torture wrench
Apr 14, 2007
1,993
716
On sealed bearings there's the number, followed by letters. Ie. 6802 2rs or 17286 vrs. The numbers are the size, but what's the significance of the letters? Does it make a difference in the seal or is it a manufacturer label or something?
 

MrBaker87

Monkey
Mar 30, 2014
156
113
neverlandranch
Best bearings to replace frame bearings with? I know there is a lot of hate on enduro bearings, and my bearings on my banshee rune are about due.
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,480
4,720
Australia
Best bearings to replace frame bearings with? I know there is a lot of hate on enduro bearings, and my bearings on my banshee rune are about due.
Drop the coin on SKF or NSK bearing IMO. In my experience, they last much longer than premium MTB bearings.

The shit thing is a lot of manufacturers are starting to use custom race extenders or bearing sizes that aren't standard industrial bearing sizes so you're stuck using low end rubbish in borderline applications.
 

HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
6,637
5,449
I once asked a bike shop for Enduro bearings and the shop owner went on a crazy rant about how Enduro bearings were a load of shit and were just Japanese bearings rebranded for the bike industry.

I found his rant odd as I used to fit them to a number of locations on larger forklifts and they lasted very well in some pretty tough environments.

Poor alignment and a lack of rotation would probably have more of an effect on lifespan over the brand of bearings.
I'm no bearingologist but I'd guess that axially loading a bearing through misalignment would reduce the effectiveness of the seal. My old Corsair was insane for misalignment and it killed two sets of bearings in probably less than 50hrs of dry riding, some of that time would have been walking time too as it snapped pivot bolts and the shitty Hope axles of the day.

Cleanliness can be a problem too, water can't penetrate a seal unless it's farked, if you add a surfactant it has a better chance of getting in past a dying or dry seal.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,855
9,560
AK
Just saw a black bear on the bike path about 30 min ago. He didn’t like like creaks coming from my bearings and he ran away.
 

tacubaya

Monkey
Dec 19, 2009
720
89
Mexico City
Eh, for frames you don't wanna use the common industrial ball bearings because those are meant to spin quite fast whereas frame bearing rarely make a full rotation (most of the time the rotate less than 90 degrees back and forth). Full complement (MAX) bearings are the best choice for the application because more balls mean the load is being spread on more contact points so the races last longer. The problem is that only a couple of companies make them, one of them being Enduro.

Max bearings filled with low washout grease and regular maintenance is what I would recommend.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,855
9,560
AK
I had a Turner with grease ports that avoided all this nonsense. Fucking lizards...
 

Wuffles

Monkey
Feb 24, 2016
157
98
Eh, for frames you don't wanna use the common industrial ball bearings because those are meant to spin quite fast whereas frame bearing rarely make a full rotation (most of the time the rotate less than 90 degrees back and forth). Full complement (MAX) bearings are the best choice for the application because more balls mean the load is being spread on more contact points so the races last longer. The problem is that only a couple of companies make them, one of them being Enduro.

Max bearings filled with low washout grease and regular maintenance is what I would recommend.

This. Many times over. By far the most important thing for an mtb suspension bearing is it's coverage. I learned this the hard way, buying some otherwise high end industrial bearings for my Nomad, and then getting them totally trashed in a few rides.

Enduro has their problems with sealing, but they are one of the few full complement bearings that come in mtb sizes.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,855
9,560
AK
Ask everyone else that had a bike with bushings how that worked out.
It worked great until companies like Specialized and the like started trying to convince everyone that rollerskate bearings were "better" in limited-rotation environments where they "pit" and can't provide decent lateral support. The bushings required more precision to fit, but you could pump a big of grease in every month or two and they'd go on for a long long time. Eventually I replaced the rear horst-bushings, but the main pivot and linkage ones never wore out, even though I replaced them at the same time. Much more laterally rigid than bearings too. According to the story, DT got with an industrial engineer in the beginning to make the "best" pivot system. There were some systems like tapered bearings that were just not practical for small pivots and needle bearings that only have support in two dimensions, so grease-port IGUS bushings were settled on as the best compromise. A bit more expensive than just slapping a few crappy bearings in like the big companies do, but it was well worth it in the long run.

For sure, all bearings and bushings are not created equal. My early-generation Diamondback and Rocky Mountain bikes had pretty terrible bushings, just copper-teflon impregnated aluminum hats, which wore out in no time and were pretty dinky (although the size of the turner bushings wasn't really indicative of their rigidity, it's one reason the bike worked so well, much better bump absorption due to a stiffer frame). You "can" build a decent bike with bearings, if you do it well. Example, my current Turner has the bearings in the linkages, not in the frame, they are relatively easy to push out and install. My recent Specizlied was an absolute nightmare, bearings in the horst-link pivot couldn't even be pulled by a blind puller, because there was no "lip", you had to replace the entire seatstay. You still run into inherent issues like pitting from limited rotation and hopefully they are using good angular contact bearings, but this is one of those areas where it's usually evident that a bike wasn't meant to be used for more than a few seasons. They've gotten better in this regard, but some are just still too "disposable", not meant to go on year after year. Lizards have make sure of this.
 
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Wuffles

Monkey
Feb 24, 2016
157
98
Open question time:
Needle bearings for suspension linkages? I know there's kits for the shock bushings specifically, but in general it would seem a needle bearing would be theoretically excellent for mtb linkages. The practical hurdle is of course that finding well-sealed needle bearings is difficult, bordering on impossible, and they're a lot more expensive then their traditional counterparts.
 

FlipSide

Turbo Monkey
Sep 24, 2001
1,376
804
Open question time:
Needle bearings for suspension linkages? I know there's kits for the shock bushings specifically, but in general it would seem a needle bearing would be theoretically excellent for mtb linkages. The practical hurdle is of course that finding well-sealed needle bearings is difficult, bordering on impossible, and they're a lot more expensive then their traditional counterparts.
I once had a 2007 Devinci Frantik with needle bearings. I'm not sure it if was due to the bearings or something else, but I remember the rear end was loosening a bit easily on my bike. I don't think Devinci uses these bearings anymore.
 

shirk007

Monkey
Apr 14, 2009
499
354
Turner does appear to be the exception when it comes to bushings.

The list of failed attempts at bushings is much longer than the list of success.
 

HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
6,637
5,449
Turner does appear to be the exception when it comes to bushings.

The list of failed attempts at bushings is much longer than the list of success.
Break away force would probably be higher on a bushing but they should be better in every other aspect as long as they are well sealed.

My old Nicolai ran needle rollers that had very little to keep the elements out and they didn't seem to last all that long. They introduced plastic bushings in around 2011 I believe, not sure if they are still running them now though.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/To-The-Point-Bushings-2013.html
 

JustMtnB44

Monkey
Sep 13, 2006
840
113
Pittsburgh, PA
Open question time:
Needle bearings for suspension linkages? I know there's kits for the shock bushings specifically, but in general it would seem a needle bearing would be theoretically excellent for mtb linkages. The practical hurdle is of course that finding well-sealed needle bearings is difficult, bordering on impossible, and they're a lot more expensive then their traditional counterparts.
Turner does appear to be the exception when it comes to bushings.

The list of failed attempts at bushings is much longer than the list of success.
Turner also used needle bearings on a few bikes such as the Highline that I owned. They put an x-ring seal around it and had a grease port much like their bushing design. I only had to replace one of them in the 8 years I owned that bike.

I had the first gen Banshee Spitfire with bushings and yeah, that was a fail. They had grease ports but no seals so the grease would get contaminated with dirt and then form a grinding paste that ate away the link material, making the pivots sloppy. If they just had a seal around the outside like Turner does it may have worked ok. I got an at cost replacement frame when the gen 2 Spitfire came out in 2013 and it has held up really well, but I think it's time for new pivot bearings.
 

JustMtnB44

Monkey
Sep 13, 2006
840
113
Pittsburgh, PA
You've been riding the original bearings since 2013?
Haha yep. I took the pivots apart once a couple years ago to clean everything and I regreased a few of the bearings that weren't smooth. I try not to ride this bike when it's muddy or in the winter very much, I use my hardtail for that. But overall I still love the Spitfire as it is both super fun to ride and damn near bulletproof from a reliability standpoint.
 

HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
6,637
5,449
Doesn't look like there's any full complement bearings, $20US would be quite pricey for a caged bearing. Wonder where they'd be made? SKF make a heap of stuff in India and now China, doesn't really matter but it would make the price seem a bit steeper.

Soon we'll all be on E-Bikes and then we can run fluid bearings, hahaha!
 

Happymtb.fr

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2016
1,907
1,252
SWE
I don't know what you pay for "nornal" SKF bearings in the US but here in Sweden they cost around 15usd a piece for the linkage.
 

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
2,057
1,298
Styria

maxyedor

<b>TOOL PRO</b>
Oct 20, 2005
5,496
3,140
In the bathroom, fighting a battle
When in need of a bearing I always remove them from the frame, take them to my local industrial bearing dealer, place them on the counter and say "I need to replace these, and gimme the good shit" I usually end up with SKF or Timken. It always works out to be a pretty good value, but being in Ca and riding dry conditions 99.9% of the time I'm probably a bad judge of bearing durability, except for headsets they all last a couple years.

Just saw a black bear on the bike path about 30 min ago. He didn’t like like creaks coming from my bearings and he ran away.
Finally a valid reason to switch to press fit BBs, lizards rejoice!
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,480
4,720
Australia
If not just trow away teh races and run 'em balls loose like when we were kidz. :thumb:
Trying to tap the lower bearing out of a headset a few weeks ago I only knocked the inner race out and sent teeny ball bearings scattering across the garage. Wasn't overly impressed with myself.
 

Happymtb.fr

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2016
1,907
1,252
SWE
Trying to tap the lower bearing out of a headset a few weeks ago I only knocked the inner race out and sent teeny ball bearings scattering across the garage. Wasn't overly impressed with myself.
It happened to me too and I was happy that there were slots in the lower bearing cup so that it was fairly easy to knock the outer bearing out.