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The E-word thread. EWS

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Cerberus75

Monkey
Feb 18, 2017
520
194
norbar said:
Communities tend to self regulate pretty well when they are new and small. The argument that as soon as you can win money people start cheating and the proportion of cheaters is the same in all sports is unrealistic.
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No. But as soon as it becomes national/ international with hundreds/thousands of people trying to win, the likely hood of doping increases. When the circle is small dopping looks legit. A cup of coffee or redbull for stamina. A beer to relax the mind.

In most pro sports its also counter productive to dope to make it a pro. If so you wont do well as as a pro.
 
aenema

aenema

almost 100% positive
Sep 5, 2008
306
111
Have you heard of 'Strave Lines'? It doesn't even take money before people start cheating. Some sort of perceived fame or ego boost for far too many. Its almost like its built into human nature to be an alpha male and take every advantage available to get the mating rites that so entails. There is no solution other than we applaud the effort of folks and not the results and that's just not realistic. As long as we look at who is on top, people are going to do what it takes to get there.
Maybe we should just allow everything and deny things like insurance policy payouts if a test comes back positive. Congrats on being top dog until you broke your collar bone and had to pay out of pocket for surgery/rehab because you had to be number whatever.
 
Electric_City

Electric_City

Torture wrench
Apr 14, 2007
1,994
716
aenema said:
Have you heard of 'Strave Lines'? It doesn't even take money before people start cheating. Some sort of perceived fame or ego boost for far too many. Its almost like its built into human nature to be an alpha male and take every advantage available to get the mating rites that so entails. There is no solution other than we applaud the effort of folks and not the results and that's just not realistic. As long as we look at who is on top, people are going to do what it takes to get there.
Maybe we should just allow everything and deny things like insurance policy payouts if a test comes back positive. Congrats on being top dog until you broke your collar bone and had to pay out of pocket for surgery/rehab because you had to be number whatever.
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That's exactly what I'm saying!

Imagine getting into a sport early and you're winning. Then some big dawgs come into the sport who have been training for this exact discipline. You're now 5th-10th. Your sponsors are kinda disappointed and want "the old you" back. You talk to some of your buddies that you race with and one tells you that he takes this stuff to help him breathe/calm/get energized/whatever. He gives you some and you just upped your game again! Top 3 every race! This isn't from your sponsor, but it's available at Amazon, wally world, gnc and Walgreens.

Who's at fault? The vitamin sponsor? No.
The bike company?
The 5 other sponsors for wanting better results?
The friend for giving him something to help?
The racer?
Peer pressure?
 
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Gary

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,618
5,538
UK
shelteringsky said:
If you were able to wade through that verbal diarrhoea
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Of course man. I'm not a 'tard
Thanks for taking the time to find it and share.
The gist I got from it is Yoann is a thinker and probably a great and incredibly selfless and sensual lover. ;)
Shame the dude's taken already really
 
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Cerberus75

Monkey
Feb 18, 2017
520
194
rockofullr said:
Or... and this might sound crazy... we can drug test people so you have a chance of being competitive without having to take crazy drugs.
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There is an entire market both regular and gray market that is invested in finding or creating compounds that are not on the list or untraceable. Tons of "natural amphetamines" are used. Once they look like they'll get discovered. They end up in preworkout supplements as new. But they've been in pro sports for a few years (opps I meant clinical studies)
 
aenema

aenema

almost 100% positive
Sep 5, 2008
306
111
rockofullr said:
Or... and this might sound crazy... we can drug test people so you have a chance of being competitive without having to take crazy drugs.
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Until there is more money and fame in testing than there is in winning, this is just a 'in a perfect world' scenario.
 
rockofullr

rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
7,342
924
East Bay, Cali
aenema said:
Until there is more money and fame in testing than there is in winning, this is just a 'in a perfect world' scenario.
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You can't just let it go. You need to make it clear that PEDs are not allowed in the sport of cycling. What happens at the highest levels of sport trickle down to lower levels. If the pros are doing it college riders will be doing it and if college riders are doing it high school riders will be doing it.
 
jonKranked

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,805
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media blackout
rockofullr said:
You can't just let it go. You need to make it clear that PEDs are not allowed in the sport of cycling. What happens at the highest levels of sport trickle down to lower levels. If the pros are doing it college riders will be doing it and if college riders are doing it high school riders will be doing it.
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Dude get real high schoolers are busy eating tide pods
 
Kurt_80

Kurt_80

Monkey
Jan 25, 2016
488
418
Perth, WA.
shelteringsky said:
...As for the “everyone is doing its argument....
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While I agree that these guys, if found guilty, should be punished to the extent of the law, the underlying culture of the sport ALSO matters.

There is a difference between Rude and Graves being the only cheaters, vs Rude and Graves being the only ones caught. The former is truly about poor character, whereas the latter is about acculturating to a dodgy system, and incorrectly introduces a bad/good dynamic between the caught/not caught groups if not effectively dealt with.

I think that is what Barelli is saying, albeit clumsily, in his PB comments.
 
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shelteringsky

shelteringsky

Monkey
May 21, 2010
307
257
Kurt_80 said:
While I agree that these guys, if found guilty, should be punished to the extent of the law, the underlying culture of the sport ALSO matters.

There is a difference between Rude and Graves being the only cheaters, vs Rude and Graves being the only ones caught. The former is truly about poor character, whereas the latter is about acculturating to a dodgy system, and incorrectly introduces a bad/good dynamic between the caught/not caught groups if not effectively dealt with.

I think that is what Barelli is saying, albeit clumsily, in his PB comments.
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Sooo everyone else is doing it so it's okay?

*Meanwhile the rest of the podium tests clean and apparently Barelli doesn't dope...
 
aenema

aenema

almost 100% positive
Sep 5, 2008
306
111
rockofullr said:
You can't just let it go. You need to make it clear that PEDs are not allowed in the sport of cycling. What happens at the highest levels of sport trickle down to lower levels. If the pros are doing it college riders will be doing it and if college riders are doing it high school riders will be doing it.
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I ultimately agree with you. You can't just let it go but I fail to see how you could ever change the culture of the cheater. My point is that it is just so part of human nature that people are always going to try to cheat and there is more money and fame in successfully cheating than there is in successfully testing. I'm being a depressed realist.
 
Gary

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,618
5,538
UK
Simply stop thinking of sport as a physical test or choosing a favourite competitor to root for and just enjoy it for the entertainment.
Even watching football I don't choose sides but enjoy the play of all the players. (flaws and achievements)

I was 14 when i realised this.

Sport's not far off war for turning normal folk into utter twats.
 
Bikael Molton

Bikael Molton

goofy for life
Jun 9, 2003
4,019
1,154
El Lay
Podium, maybe... but there is no way the mid-pack and EWS riders you’ve never heard of have the deep pockets to stay ahead of the testing regime, as may be the case in Le Tour.

The sponsor money is very small in this sport, and though many of them are probably trust fund kids, not all of em are.

I bet doping is not rampant in EWS yet.

Happymtb.fr said:
The rest of the podium could be ahead of the curve and know how to cheat the test... I don't say it is like that, nor do I know if it is, but it is a plausible scenario.
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jonKranked

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,805
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rpet said:
Podium, maybe... but there is no way the mid-pack and EWS riders you’ve never heard of have the deep pockets to stay ahead of the testing regime, as may be the case in Le Tour.

The sponsor money is very small in this sport, and though many of them are probably trust fund kids, not all of em are.

I bet doping is not rampant in EWS yet.
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trust fund kids go into road racing, or auto racing.
 
F

fwp

Monkey
Jun 5, 2013
410
400
The problem with drug testing is like everything in life you get what you pay for and there is no way in hell the EWS can afford legitimate testing that will actually catch everyone. USADA testing costs the UFC millions of dollars a year but it makes doping pretty much impossible. There just aren't enough resources at hand to make bike racing truly a clean sport. Unless you have the best testing in the world cheaters will always find a way.
 
norbar

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
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Cerberus75 said:
No. But as soon as it becomes national/ international with hundreds/thousands of people trying to win, the likely hood of doping increases. When the circle is small dopping looks legit. A cup of coffee or redbull for stamina. A beer to relax the mind.

In most pro sports its also counter productive to dope to make it a pro. If so you wont do well as as a pro.
Click to expand...
There are no hundreds of thousands of people trying to win. You get a few hundred people at EWS rounds. 100-200? Also the people who really fight for the win are a small group. They all know each other. This is the community that tends to self regulate.

Also the biking community is still super small. Most of the people on this forum know someone who qualified for a world cup, crankworx, ews or rampage. Know that person on first name basis. This means rumors spread fast and the group is smaller than you think. The inner circle reasonably dedicated bikers group is still small even if they are thousands of joeys and weekend warriors.
 
norbar

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,362
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aenema said:
Have you heard of 'Strave Lines'? It doesn't even take money before people start cheating. Some sort of perceived fame or ego boost for far too many. Its almost like its built into human nature to be an alpha male and take every advantage available to get the mating rites that so entails. There is no solution other than we applaud the effort of folks and not the results and that's just not realistic. As long as we look at who is on top, people are going to do what it takes to get there.
Maybe we should just allow everything and deny things like insurance policy payouts if a test comes back positive. Congrats on being top dog until you broke your collar bone and had to pay out of pocket for surgery/rehab because you had to be number whatever.
Click to expand...
People cheat in Strava because there is no one to check you when you do it. There are no witneses. It's a different enviroment entirely.
 
norbar

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,362
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Electric_City said:
That's exactly what I'm saying!

Imagine getting into a sport early and you're winning. Then some big dawgs come into the sport who have been training for this exact discipline. You're now 5th-10th. Your sponsors are kinda disappointed and want "the old you" back. You talk to some of your buddies that you race with and one tells you that he takes this stuff to help him breathe/calm/get energized/whatever. He gives you some and you just upped your game again! Top 3 every race! This isn't from your sponsor, but it's available at Amazon, wally world, gnc and Walgreens.

Who's at fault? The vitamin sponsor? No.
The bike company?
The 5 other sponsors for wanting better results?
The friend for giving him something to help?
The racer?
Peer pressure?
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Someone had to start doping first. Since for now probably few people dope there will not be those older guys who "help you" with advice what to take. Stop transplanting road racing stories into our part of the woods. What you are saying will probably happen in EWS sooner or later but it's a process not like you suggest that as soon as they is cash to be won everyone instantly went into dopes'r'us and bought themselves a yearly supply of epo and booty sweat. There have been rumors that some riders have been doping for quite some time but given the nature of those rumors it's clear the community is way less accepting of it than older sports so stop creating a false image of a sport only for the sake of creating nice conspiracy theories. It's the future but it's not the present.
 
Electric_City

Electric_City

Torture wrench
Apr 14, 2007
1,994
716
norbar said:
Someone had to start doping first. Since for now probably few people dope there will not be those older guys who "help you" with advice what to take. Stop transplanting road racing stories into our part of the woods. What you are saying will probably happen in EWS sooner or later but it's a process not like you suggest that as soon as they is cash to be won everyone instantly went into dopes'r'us and bought themselves a yearly supply of epo and booty sweat. There have been rumors that some riders have been doping for quite some time but given the nature of those rumors it's clear the community is way less accepting of it than older sports so stop creating a false image of a sport only for the sake of creating nice conspiracy theories. It's the future but it's not the present.
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And where are your "facts" from? You seem to use the word "probably" a lot. Like... It's your opinion or something? If you have facts to prove me wrong, let's see them.
 
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Gary

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,618
5,538
UK
TDF in the early years alchohol, fags and Cocaine were all used to enhance performance/mask pain.
that was 100 years ago.
It's fairly obvious folk used whatever "helped" in other sports way before that too.
I'm not sure what facts or proof you'd need to see. It's just human nature.
 
Electric_City

Electric_City

Torture wrench
Apr 14, 2007
1,994
716
Gary said:
TDF in the early years alchohol, fags and Cocaine were all used to enhance performance/mask pain.
that was 100 years ago.
It's fairly obvious folk used whatever "helped" in other sports way before that too.
I'm not sure what facts or proof you'd need to see. It's just human nature.
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Are you talking to me or norbar? Cause I agree with you.
 
Gary

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,618
5,538
UK
Just shoutin' at the cloud about the old days as usual.

I agree with you both. sorta.
 
Gary

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,618
5,538
UK
Happymtb.fr said:
The story I heard was that smoking helped "opening" the lungs prior to physical activity.
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Depends when you mean really. The tobaco industry did push various health benefits of smoking while they could get away with it along with medical BS to promote their brands

My family GP when growing up was an older Doctor who still unbelievably suggested to patients 15 a day was healthy until she retired in the 80s.
 
C

Cerberus75

Monkey
Feb 18, 2017
520
194
norbar said:
There are no hundreds of thousands of people trying to win. You get a few hundred people at EWS rounds. 100-200? Also the people who really fight for the win are a small group. They all know each other. This is the community that tends to self regulate.

Also the biking community is still super small. Most of the people on this forum know someone who qualified for a world cup, crankworx, ews or rampage. Know that person on first name basis. This means rumors spread fast and the group is smaller than you think. The inner circle reasonably dedicated bikers group is still small even if they are thousands of joeys and weekend warriors.
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shelteringsky

shelteringsky

Monkey
May 21, 2010
307
257
Gary said:
TDF in the early years alchohol, fags and Cocaine were all used to enhance performance/mask pain.
that was 100 years ago.
It's fairly obvious folk used whatever "helped" in other sports way before that too.
I'm not sure what facts or proof you'd need to see. It's just human nature.
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Vive Le Tour is an interesting look at the TDF in 1962. Quite a bit of 'performance enhancement' going on, be it from alcohol in the cafe 'drinking raids' or spectators literally pushing the riders up the hills. Worth a watch.

 
sethimus

sethimus

neu bizutch
Feb 5, 2006
4,947
2,170
not in Whistler anymore :/
isn't 20s tour de france comparable to modern long endurance races like the transcontinental and others? riding through europe in record time eating only what the next gas station provides while abusing your body in extreme ways...
 
norbar

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,362
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Electric_City said:
And where are your "facts" from? You seem to use the word "probably" a lot. Like... It's your opinion or something? If you have facts to prove me wrong, let's see them.
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You come from a position where your hypothesis is proven and I have to disprove it? Mate this is not how it works. Prove your theory first.

Also I am using the world probably because I know the world is an uncertain place and I can't say anything for sure. I just know a few pros and I feel me and many people on this forums are close enough to the heart of the sport to hear any rumors. We've heard about doping for select riders before (Lopes?) but with no rumors and NOTHING to base your assumptions on I don't see how in the hell you assume your point is more valid than mine and how you don't have to prove shit.

All I am saying is you are theorycrafting based on nothing and creating a far darker tone for doping here than any info we have suggests. It also seems to me you know a bit less than more cautious of us so I'm calling you out on it. Simple as that. So as long as you have nothing, not even suggestions or rumors that doping is widespread in enduro and dh or freeride can you stop writing those outlandish theories?
 
Electric_City

Electric_City

Torture wrench
Apr 14, 2007
1,994
716
Tl:dr- I asked lf anyone (the 5 people on this forum) would feel pressure from sponsors. And norbar calls me out, Yo!

Don't you have to go chase tanks on your horse or something?

Your basing your theories on an idea I had and "called me out brah"? Lol! You better find a forum for knitting.

I posted a "maybe this is how it happened" idea to show my views and you "call me out"? Good one hotshot!

I'm too dark and thinking that this is a widespread thing... Hmmm, I better get that guy to chime in that knows everything behind the scenes. Glad you showed up. Who am I kidding? There's no "behind the scenes" stuff happening! Everyone knows each other in Endurbro! They're all clean and wouldn't cheat. I know this cause my buddy told me so. :shout:

How many were tested? How many race? Well! They caught them all didn't they?
 
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norbar

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,362
1,598
Warsaw :/
Electric_City said:
Tl:dr- I asked lf anyone (the 5 people on this forum) would feel pressure from sponsors. And norbar calls me out, Yo!

Don't you have to go chase tanks on your horse or something?

Your basing your theories on an idea I had and "called me out brah"? Lol! You better find a forum for knitting.

I posted a "maybe this is how it happened" idea to show my views and you "call me out"? Good one hotshot!

I'm too dark and thinking that this is a widespread thing... Hmmm, I better get that guy to chime in that knows everything behind the scenes. Glad you showed up. Who am I kidding? There's no "behind the scenes" stuff happening! Everyone knows each other in Endurbro! They're all clean and wouldn't cheat. I know this cause my buddy told me so. :shout:

How many were tested? How many race? Well! They caught them all didn't they?
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Yeah you posted "maybe this how it happened" but can you at least base it or something not random guessing?

Because it it's just random ideas that come to us while shitting then I claim Rude and Graves didn't dope. They were just abducted by aliens and the forbiden substances are side effects of butt probing.

Also if you mock me can you at least try to be accurate instead of being an ass? Never said nothing happens. Just said that you claiming everyone dopes because of that sweet sweet enduro money is a reach. 2 guys got caught and you suddenly assume everyone is on dope.

btw. You are a bit incoherent because are you suggesting forums for knitting are somehow places where people call each other out and have well informed dicussions? Are you sure you're not on some rhyno pre workout and it kinda makes you trip?
 
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