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What trail bike tire casings don't suck?

Bike078

Monkey
Jan 11, 2018
561
405
Enough dicking around. DHRII 2.4" WT order for the rear.

So far I am impressed with it up front on the Trail bike, and dont feel like its rolling slower to have noticed. So that's an added bonus. 26" tire options are getting thin. None of the new goodly tires that are available in bigger and biggest wheel sizes.
I quite like the 2.4 DHR 2 WT front tire on my hardtail. I mostly ride on hardpack trails. I run a 26" wtb vigilante in the rear. It rolls ok, surprisingly. High volume too.
 

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,001
1,693
Northern California
For me the limit on tire volume was found when I tried 2.6 WTs on 35mm rims - too imprecise. I've mostly moved to 30mm rims and 2.5 Maxxis WTs and 2.35 Schwalbes and have been happy with the increases in traction and feel, but wouldn't want to go any more high volume.
 

William42

fork ways
Jul 31, 2007
3,908
634
Anybody know how fast Seb Scott is? Seems relevant if he's racing pro or midpack cat 3. A fat tire might make a slower rider faster and a faster rider slower I would think, which jives well with my circumstantial evidence that when I tried 2.8 tires back in the day, they rolled over constantly (until I was running the same pressure as I did in 2.5's), velt vague and imprecise, and lost traction more frequently in hard corners. That was what, 6 years ago at this point though, and I have precisely 0 difficulty believing tire casings have improved since then. They'd probably suit me well now that I'm slow as shit and dream of ebikes. Do they make an ebike specific tire?
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,288
5,028
Ottawa, Canada
watched that. a couple of things came to mind:
1. same rim width. it has been established that tire width and rim width operate as a system. mis-matching tire/rim width as he did will compound the negatives at the extremes.
2. personal preference. i don't like the vague feeling fat tires bring. even if it's marginally faster.
ok, so 3 things...
3. longevity and tire/rim damage. Fatter tires are more prone to damage, as are the rims. I don't want to be replacing rims and tires all the time.

edited to add:
Do they make an ebike specific tire?
yes
 

dcamp29

Monkey
Feb 14, 2004
589
63
Colorado
Anybody know how fast Seb Scott is? Seems relevant if he's racing pro or midpack cat 3. A fat tire might make a slower rider faster and a faster rider slower I would think, which jives well with my circumstantial evidence that when I tried 2.8 tires back in the day, they rolled over constantly (until I was running the same pressure as I did in 2.5's), velt vague and imprecise, and lost traction more frequently in hard corners. That was what, 6 years ago at this point though, and I have precisely 0 difficulty believing tire casings have improved since then. They'd probably suit me well now that I'm slow as shit and dream of ebikes. Do they make an ebike specific tire?

was curious about that also: https://www.rootsandrain.com/rider13833/sebastian-stott/results/

Looks to be decently (mid pack pro) fast. All things considered I think he did a really good/thorough test on tires given the equipment available and how many variables there are to manage.
 

Electric_City

Torture wrench
Apr 14, 2007
1,993
716
1. same rim width. it has been established that tire width and rim width operate as a system. mis-matching tire/rim width as he did will compound the negatives at the extremes.
Though I understand what you're saying, the test is more practical than you think. I'm not going home to rebuild my wheel with a new rim cause I got a new tire that's .2" wider or narrower than what was specd on a bike. Neither are 100.01% of the people out there.
 

mykel

closer to Periwinkle
Apr 19, 2013
5,067
3,778
sw ontario canada
Though I understand what you're saying, the test is more practical than you think. I'm not going home to rebuild my wheel with a new rim cause I got a new tire that's .2" wider or narrower than what was specd on a bike. Neither are 100.01% of the people out there.
Other than new wheel builds, you pretty much nailed it.
We don't get a choice of rim on a new bike, you get what you get.

Unless you have the ability to build 3 for 4 wheelsets with the appropriate rim width spread for each tire size, then test each rim with each tire then parse the big matrix, this is about as good as your going to get.

Also at least he touched on the statistical significance of the results...

All in all, a pretty good effort for a dude out riding in the woods.
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,288
5,028
Ottawa, Canada
Though I understand what you're saying, the test is more practical than you think. I'm not going home to rebuild my wheel with a new rim cause I got a new tire that's .2" wider or narrower than what was specd on a bike. Neither are 100.01% of the people out there.
No, but plenty of people are waiting until they have to buy a new rim to "opt-in" to the wider-is-better way of life. I thought about it pretty seriously last time I had to replace rims. In fact, I'm still toying with the idea. But first I have to pick what size tire I want to run before picking what size rim to get.
 

rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
7,342
924
East Bay, Cali
For me the limit on tire volume was found when I tried 2.6 WTs on 35mm rims - too imprecise. I've mostly moved to 30mm rims and 2.5 Maxxis WTs and 2.35 Schwalbes and have been happy with the increases in traction and feel, but wouldn't want to go any more high volume.
Under appreciated comment right here.

Surprisingly good article from Bikeradar comparing 2.3, 2.6 and 2.8 tires.

https://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/article/whats-the-fastest-tyre-size-for-mountain-biking-53304/
Cool..... but I know a whole group of people who have more time and money to test this sort of thing. They're completely obsessed with every aspect of their bike setups, from rim width to taking the time to shave down center nobs on minions to make them roll faster. They've got access to stacks of rims and tires and have taken the time to ride them. They're called professional DH/Enduro racers. Guess what, there's nothing over 2.5 showing up on the WC/EWS (podiums). The fast people who have actually done the testing agree, big tires are slow and goofy to ride.

And WTF why skip over 2.5? As far as I'm concerned 2.5 up front and 2.3 in the back (unless you're somewhere super steep/crazy) is the way to go. 2.5 on both ends feels good but I can also feel it slowing me down when I'm trying to carry speed.

No, but plenty of people are waiting until they have to buy a new rim to "opt-in" to the wider-is-better way of life. I thought about it pretty seriously last time I had to replace rims. In fact, I'm still toying with the idea. But first I have to pick what size tire I want to run before picking what size rim to get.
I'll make your life easy. 30mm rim with 2.5WT up front and 25mm rim and 2.3 in the back. Or for more traction run 30mm with 2.5WT both ends.

If you're a traction whore you can run a 3C MaxxGrip in the front.
 
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Electric_City

Torture wrench
Apr 14, 2007
1,993
716
No, but plenty of people are waiting until they have to buy a new rim to "opt-in" to the wider-is-better way of life. I thought about it pretty seriously last time I had to replace rims. In fact, I'm still toying with the idea. But first I have to pick what size tire I want to run before picking what size rim to get.
I get it. But changing between a 2.3 and 2.5 doesn't justify a wider rim. Aren't Schwalbe tires generally wider and maxxis narrower when compared side-by-side even though they are both 2.3" tires? I wouldn't but a new rim cause of that.

My i35 rims with 2.35" tires seem too wide. But my i30's seem perfect with a 2.5" & 2.6" tire. I personally don't think that the rim has to fit the tire by such a tight tolerance. For example, 2.3"-i27, 2.5"-i30, 2.6"-i33, 2.8"-i35. There are many other variables that can make a bigger difference.
 
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slimshady

¡Mira, una ardilla!
My i35 rims with 2.35" tires seem too wide. But my i30's seem perfect with a 2.5" & 2.6" tire. I personally don't think that the rim has to fit the tire by such a tight tolerance. For example, 2.3"-i27, 2.5"-i30, 2.6"-i33, 2.8"-i35. There are many other variables that can make a bigger difference.
Tire shape have a combined effect with rim width on the final ride feel. Not all the square profile tires are equally squared, neither all the round profile ones are equally rounder. Rim width can exacerbate or negate some profile characteristics.

For instance, the Geax Goma 2.25 I'm running as a front tire is too round to be usable on anything narrower than i30, while the 2.4 HR2 I'm running as a rear has just the right balance (for my riding taste) between round and square on the same i30 rim. The Goma looks like an old tungsten light bulb on anything narrower than i30, and squirms like a caterpillar on narrow rims with less than 32 psi, since the rim isn't able to support the sidewalls.

On i30s it flats just enough as to let you notice it has side knobs, while on narrower rims it feels like it's completely slick outside of the rolling area.
 
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slimshady

¡Mira, una ardilla!
How are you still alive? :panic:
It's a pretty good tire for loose over hardpack and loamy trails, chunkier than advertised and with sturdier sidewalls than Maxxis' EXO. And on pure rock it ain't a Super Tacky, but it ain't no Kenda either.

Pour in some rain and you'll end up with a wax cylinder worthy of Edison's early recordings...
 
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HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
6,627
5,441
Rim width? I'm guessing 30 inner?
Flow MK3, 29mm internal and I wouldn't want a wider rim with the 2.5"Minion.
I know it's more tire than most people would want on a trail hardtail but it works for me, I'd rather be quicker in the fun bits over being faster in the boring bits.
I had a Der Kaiser Projekt and a Der Baron Projekt before the Minions, the, they rolled pretty slowly and I didn't like the weaker casings all that much, the grip was fine though.
 

Bike078

Monkey
Jan 11, 2018
561
405
Flow MK3, 29mm internal and I wouldn't want a wider rim with the 2.5"Minion.
I know it's more tire than most people would want on a trail hardtail but it works for me, I'd rather be quicker in the fun bits over being faster in the boring bits.
I had a Der Kaiser Projekt and a Der Baron Projekt before the Minions, the, they rolled pretty slowly and I didn't like the weaker casings all that much, the grip was fine though.
I saw that bikeradar video and I'm thinking is it really worth purchasing the big tires for my hardtail given I mostly ride relatively smooth hardpack trails these days. I would like the extra cushion though.
 

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
2,057
1,298
Styria
Under appreciated comment right here.



Cool..... but I know a whole group of people who have more time and money to test this sort of thing. They're completely obsessed with every aspect of their bike setups, from rim width to taking the time to shave down center nobs on minions to make them roll faster. They've got access to stacks of rims and tires and have taken the time to ride them. They're called professional DH/Enduro racers. Guess what, there's nothing over 2.5 showing up on the WC/EWS (podiums). The fast people who have actually done the testing agree, big tires are slow and goofy to ride.

And WTF why skip over 2.5? As far as I'm concerned 2.5 up front and 2.3 in the back (unless you're somewhere super steep/crazy) is the way to go. 2.5 on both ends feels good but I can also feel it slowing me down when I'm trying to carry speed.



I'll make your life easy. 30mm rim with 2.5WT up front and 25mm rim and 2.3 in the back. Or for more traction run 30mm with 2.5WT both ends.

If you're a traction whore you can run a 3C MaxxGrip in the front.
FYI, I'm on 2.5 DHF or 2.35 MM front, 2.3 Maxxis or 2.35 MM rear - on ex471 rims.

Nevertheless it is a good article immo, he tried to do a test series in an analytical way, but he also stated that it is not flawless at all. I haven't seen this kind of article on the two major gravity advert sites in a while, if ever. Don't you agree?
 

Cerberus75

Monkey
Feb 18, 2017
520
194
The test for the tire widths also used new Spec Grid tires. The new tires have some paper thin casings. Even in 2.3. Beyond punture protection thicker casing typically has better rebound damping.
 

StiHacka

Compensating for something
Jan 4, 2013
21,560
12,504
In hell. Welcome!
I've been riding on a 2.6 GRID gripton Butcher front / 2.3 rear for a while and never had an issue with the sidewalls. I've destroyed sidewalls of EXO tires before and I shred any Schwalbe tire to rags in no time but the new Butchers have been holding fine for me so far.
They suck in the wet but that is a different story.
 

rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
7,342
924
East Bay, Cali
FYI, I'm on 2.5 DHF or 2.35 MM front, 2.3 Maxxis or 2.35 MM rear - on ex471 rims.

Nevertheless it is a good article immo, he tried to do a test series in an analytical way, but he also stated that it is not flawless at all. I haven't seen this kind of article on the two major gravity advert sites in a while, if ever. Don't you agree?
Agreed, it was a better article than most.

For tire and rim (width) choices, my strategy is to look at what the pros are running and use that as a base line. That became a bit difficult when I stopped running full on DH tires and moved to "trail" tires. But with the emergence of the EWS we can see what top riders select from the same tires we run on our trail bikes.

The most common setups for EWS pros seem to be rims around 30mm. Lots of minions in 2.5WT/2.4WT or magic marry in 2.35, maybe some narrower tires out back depending on the conditions. Lots of reinforced sidewalls (ie double down), especially in the rear.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,535
5,470
UK
What do you guys run on your trail hardtails?
2.35 DHF single ply 60a front. 2.35 bling bling single ply 60a rear
or
DMR MOTO RT front and rear

@Flo33 What compound Magic Mary do you run on the rear? and how much climbing do you do on it?
Just switched to a MM up front but a HRII rear and the HR is drifting every wet corner while the MM is nowhere near breaking loose. Kept thinking I had a flat at first. Don't know if I can cope with the drag of a MM on the rear and I don't like Shortys.
 
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toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,479
4,719
Australia
@Flo33 What compound Magic Mary do you run on the rear? and how much climbing do you do on it?
Just switched to a MM up front but a HRII rear and the HR is drifting every wet corner while the MM is nowhere near breaking loose. Kept thinking I had a flat at first. Don't know if I can cope with the drag of a MM on the rear and I don't like Shortys.
The Magic really is an insane tyre. I haven't tried the Orange compound on the rear but a few people on the Trans BC were running that. I wonder if the new Hans Dampf is worth a shot for faster rolling? Worked for Maes...
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,535
5,470
UK
It's only an orange (soft) compound I'm running on the front. Maybe should have said. Don't think I'd ever run a soft compound rear on a trail/derp bike
 

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
2,057
1,298
Styria
The orange one, but only in really sloppy conditions. Most of the time I use a DHR2, in the dry Aggressor.

My typical ride is around 750 m vert gain, sometimes a bit more.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,535
5,470
UK
The orange one, but only in really sloppy conditions. Most of the time I use a DHR2, in the dry Aggressor.

My typical ride is around 750 m vert gain, sometimes a bit more.
Thanks. Had thought DHRII but they're such a nice front tyre I'm not sure I could cope with the thought of wearing one out on the rear. will keep an eye out for them at a bargain price.

[EDIT] Hahaha... Found one online for £25.99 in less than 5 minutes. sorted!
 
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toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,479
4,719
Australia
The orange one, but only in really sloppy conditions. Most of the time I use a DHR2, in the dry Aggressor.

My typical ride is around 750 m vert gain, sometimes a bit more.
Yeah I'm running a purple MM front and a DHR2 rear. The rears get cooked quickly but I'm basically just running everything to death now because I don't want to put on new tyres till racing starts again. The MM/DHR2 was a good combo for me in BC this year (supergravity/DD casings).

The aggressor rear is really only good for dry stuff imo. It rolls a bit nicer than the DHR2 but is kinda hopeless if things get wet and rowdy. If its dry enough for the Aggressor, I'd probably have it paired with a Minion DHF.
 

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
2,057
1,298
Styria
Yeah I'm running a purple MM front and a DHR2 rear. The rears get cooked quickly but I'm basically just running everything to death now because I don't want to put on new tyres till racing starts again. The MM/DHR2 was a good combo for me in BC this year (supergravity/DD casings).

The aggressor rear is really only good for dry stuff imo. It rolls a bit nicer than the DHR2 but is kinda hopeless if things get wet and rowdy. If its dry enough for the Aggressor, I'd probably have it paired with a Minion DHF.
:stupid:
 

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,001
1,693
Northern California
I experiment with harder compound/lower rolling resistance tires in the rear from time to time, but still wind up going back to matching soft rubber meats front and rear. Lately it's been Magic Marys in the winter and, MMs, DHFs or DHRs in the summer, although the latter may be replaced by Eliminators. I just love the feeling of high speed traction.
 

mykel

closer to Periwinkle
Apr 19, 2013
5,067
3,778
sw ontario canada
Schwalbe

Anybody know if the rumour that the Performance Line Addix compound is the same as Addix Speedgrip is true? That would open up some more options, 'specially for the back end.
 

rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
7,342
924
East Bay, Cali
Just got a few rides on the WTB Vigilante. Threw a 2.5 high grip on the front end. It's a bit tall and felt weird at first but once I got used to it I was absolutely loving it. More grip in the mud and loam than I've ever had before and handled fine over wet roots and rock. I took a chance on the lighter casing so we'll see how it holds up.

@djjohnr so far I like it better than a Magic Mary
 

DaveW

Space Monkey
Jul 2, 2001
11,160
2,685
The bunker at parliament
I've been trying the WTB Judge 29x2.4 on the back of my Honzo, the 2.5 Aggressor it replaced just wasn't upto what I was throwing it at.
1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th impressions are "WOW I LOVE THIS TYRE!"
it's out gripping the 29x2.5 Minion DHF on the front.
and inspite of it's agressive knobs and hefty weight penalty, it's not noticeably slower on the climbs.
Nice thick sidewalls, looks like it's going to be pretty tough to wreck.
judge.jpg
 

Bikael Molton

goofy for life
Jun 9, 2003
4,010
1,142
El Lay
WTB tires are like Crank Bros anything for me... it’ll be a few more years before I’ll spend money on those.

Tread looks standard enough, though.

Magic Marys are the ticket where I am. I’m sticking with those for the foreseeable.
DHFs if I bother swapping them out for summer road trips.