Trek's new Helmet tech
- Thread starter William42
- Start date
i saw it, they posted their white paper with some of the results. seems impressive. but a little bit ago i saw this:
https://www.velonews.com/2019/03/news/mips-disputes-wavecel-claims-reiterates-call-for-modern-testing-standards_489690
apparently MIPS can't recreate Trek's results.
https://www.velonews.com/2019/03/news/mips-disputes-wavecel-claims-reiterates-call-for-modern-testing-standards_489690
apparently MIPS can't recreate Trek's results.
I thought it looks a lot like that Koroyd stuff Smith uses in their helmets.
edited: sniped!
edited: sniped!
Not really shocking though. What gain would MIPS have by saying anything else is as good or better than their own product?
Who owns WaveCel?
what they were really trying to do is illustrate that current test standards really need to be updated to include a standardized evaluation for rotational forces. astm, snell, DOT all currently lack that as far as i'm aware. and that whatever test method trek used to base their claims probably isn't a direct comparison to what MIPS is using
I crashed a lot and seem to stick to that habit.
I have yet to crash and cause rotational forces to my head. I have destroyed 4 helmets in crashes and never had any concussion symptoms from it. And I had 3 concussions in my life, at 4, 6 and 9 years of age. My parents were wise enough to keep me in my bed for a really long time after every one of them, so no long time effects were created.
If I crash and hit my head it always happened in relative high speed situations were my helmet made rectangular contact with the ground or low speed and steep, were my flying bike would hit my helmet.
I dont see a use case for MIPS or the other two. Any thoughts?
I have yet to crash and cause rotational forces to my head. I have destroyed 4 helmets in crashes and never had any concussion symptoms from it. And I had 3 concussions in my life, at 4, 6 and 9 years of age. My parents were wise enough to keep me in my bed for a really long time after every one of them, so no long time effects were created.
If I crash and hit my head it always happened in relative high speed situations were my helmet made rectangular contact with the ground or low speed and steep, were my flying bike would hit my helmet.
I dont see a use case for MIPS or the other two. Any thoughts?
bullshit. it's been demonstrated that virtually all crashes have a rotational element to the impact forces - unless you're falling over while standing still. if you're in motion and crash, there's a rotational element.
that's not how neurological injuries work.
still trying to picture this
Lots of debate on what really helps. I've crashed really hard into a tree with a Kali at 20 mph, compressing the helmet to have its thickness at impact, was out for 10 minutes and cracked a bone in my neck.
I still thank Kali, Brad and whoever else is working on it, whether they agree on exact approach or not. I could probably use less concussions
not to nerd out but anything that hits the ground first is likely going to experience rotational force before your carcass comes to a stop.
unless you're moving with 100% linear motion and land perpendicular to the impact surface (ground), there's rotational force.
as I said .... 
dust off your physics book.as I said ....
Wanted to say perpendicular of course. Got me.
And I have yet to experience a crash where I land completely head first.
I had my brain checked 1 month ago, thoroughly checked, like 2 CT scans, one with and one without contrast media, an MRT scan and a bunch of "conventional" diagnostic methods. Nothing.
The point remains, regardless of initial impact location.
You are aware that neurological damage from concussion injuries don't show up on any kind of imaging, right?
between skating and biking for over 40 years, i've had at least 8 known concussions. anything from slow speed flopping to high speed rag-dolling. i certainly hope that someday they don't come back to haunt me...
I have had my share...
interesting point I had seen in that article, no standard for measuring helmet performance
F=MA and this fucking hurt. I'm dead without a helmet
slo mo of the impact
slo mo of the impact
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4 KOs, 3 snowboarding related. Somehow I've managed not to knock myself out on bikes or skateboards, probably because I wear a helmet on the bike. Brain definitely isn't what it used to be, although a good amount of that is likely due to spending the 90s as a dj/raver.
Thoughts.....I have a couple
1) Trek better drop their marketing claim immediately regarding reduced likelihood of concussions. They're very likely going to be getting a warning letter from the FDA. It's against federal law to market and sell a device as preventing a clinical condition without it being approved or exempted by the FDA
2) MIPS on the other hand has been much wiser regarding how they are selling and marketing their technology. They've been able to make people believe that their "rotational force reduction" means greater safety and therefore there is less likelihood of being concussed. I've personally been skeptical of MIPS as some sort of major improvement in safety. Does MIPS' test data account for that super cool viscoelastic impact and shear damping material the envelopes all people and already sits between a helmet and skull? That organ called skin?
1) Trek better drop their marketing claim immediately regarding reduced likelihood of concussions. They're very likely going to be getting a warning letter from the FDA. It's against federal law to market and sell a device as preventing a clinical condition without it being approved or exempted by the FDA
2) MIPS on the other hand has been much wiser regarding how they are selling and marketing their technology. They've been able to make people believe that their "rotational force reduction" means greater safety and therefore there is less likelihood of being concussed. I've personally been skeptical of MIPS as some sort of major improvement in safety. Does MIPS' test data account for that super cool viscoelastic impact and shear damping material the envelopes all people and already sits between a helmet and skull? That organ called skin?
I fall off a ramp riding BMX 3 years ago, hit my forehead hard, no KO but long lasting TBI. I was wearing a standard BMX helmet which got compressed and cracked. I still got headache almost daily 3 years after... anyhow, enough rambling !
I got interested in helmets somehow since then
the main goal with the actual standards is to verify the ability of the helmet to spread the impact force so that your skull doesn't break. How much impact energy is transferred to the head and in which way (rotational or linear) is not covered by any international standards...
This is why companies can make bold claims and hide behind "we tested it with our secret test". It leave us, customers, without any possibility to verify these claims or compare the different solutions available.
Creating an international standard covering it is probably already on going but it usually takes time (at least in the domain I am working with) and probably even more time when it implies people health. These standards are the result of meetings from technical committee where people working in the relevant industries are sitting which implies that members having an edge in the area being discussed might not be willing to share what they see as proprietary information.
I got interested in helmets somehow since then
the main goal with the actual standards is to verify the ability of the helmet to spread the impact force so that your skull doesn't break. How much impact energy is transferred to the head and in which way (rotational or linear) is not covered by any international standards...
This is why companies can make bold claims and hide behind "we tested it with our secret test". It leave us, customers, without any possibility to verify these claims or compare the different solutions available.
Creating an international standard covering it is probably already on going but it usually takes time (at least in the domain I am working with) and probably even more time when it implies people health. These standards are the result of meetings from technical committee where people working in the relevant industries are sitting which implies that members having an edge in the area being discussed might not be willing to share what they see as proprietary information.
I was thinking about my hair. That might not apply to all of you though.
helmets aren't registered as medical devices.
the fundamental physics behind is, as far as i can tell, sound. the function of the slip layer is to increase the surface area during an impact (crash) which in turn reduces the peak impact force.
glad to see you've finally assimilated to America's appropriate level of ignorance
While the base concept seems to have merit, the amount of slippage MIPS allows certainly has me downplaying their statements.
i've been using MIPS lids since they came on market, starting with DH race use, and i noticed a difference during crashes.,
also, n=1
just my experience, take it for what you will.
Every head bonking crash I have had resulted in a kind of road rash on the side of my face where the helmet rotated on my head
the ground rotates up toward my face in a crash. why would i rotate into the ground? that's just stupid...
Dude, do you even grasp the concept of relativity? Your face rotates towards the ground as much as the ground rotates towards your face!
This is basically the logic of "I've been lucky so far so I will continue to push my luck until I get hurt". Yeah rotational concussions seem rare (I didn't read any studies on how often they happen) but any extra protection for the one body part you can't replace or live without is good. I know my POC helmet saved my ass to the point I had no idea I have destroyed my helmet and there might have been some strong rotational forces since I swung on my head. I don't want to try if a non mips helmet would mean a concussion since I don't want to become a crazy person like all those NFL guys.