[Westy]

I had something similar happen on livewire (tehawesomzjumptrail) at northstar. Came upon the dude snoring which if you know concussions is the autonomic nervous system trying to keep someone alive when all other shit is straight shut down. I was the first one there and knew who to call and they showed up and took over with an eventual helicopter ride. The thing on the front of his head couldn't generously be called a face anymore. Trail bike, of course.

The problem isn't the concept of flow trails. Let's be honest, they're all based on A-line from whistler. Every dirtjump spot ever made is a 'flow trail'

The problem IMO is that everyone wanted A-line for the masses without understanding what A-line actually is and was....which is a straight delivery of hardtail dirtjump crack for mountainbikers who know what they're doing. All the very accurate problems you list stem from not understanding that flow trails never were for beginners. Throw in the local trailbuilding gentrification group in your area who I'll refrain from naming who genuinely don't know what the fuck they're doing in terms of making big things safe........and you end up with this shit soup.

The trail at northstar has A-line/dirt merchant sized jumps and not a single one of them fits trail speed. They cart people off that thing daily. There's an inherent danger in bikes, a little more in jumps, and it gets exponentially worse when those jumps are built by hacks. Now throw in a population that thinks any facility that is built is done by professionals and you get the clusterfuck that is modern mountainbiking infrastructure.

Lots of trails here have a bunch of little jumps that require tons of speed with the occasional short steep fucker that requires very little speed. I personally do not have the skill to brake into a jump face or somehow scrub and pump to clear the gap without getting thrown out the the front door. But I know my limits and can scrub the jump and pump over the landing at speed. I don't know maybe it is all intended to just be a pump track for slow people.

I did have a blast bouncing off roots all morning.

I

 

[kidwoo]

Lots of trails here have a bunch of little jumps that require tons of speed with the occasional short steep fucker that requires very little speed.

Yep

that's horrendous trailbuilding

There's some of the most eroded out shit rock and rooted surfaces on the planet that 'flow' better than those messes

But you know how to deal with those bad match jump to speed trails because you've been riding bikes for longer than 5 minutes. Now trailbikes come with formerly dh bike geometry and big wheels that roll over most things meaning understanding terrain is less important, ready made trails that the shop that sells you that bike tells you is built for the bike you're buying, and there's a failed IQ test on every mountain.

Some people just shouldn't be riding mountain bikes and some people just shouldn't be building trails. Yet there's money in both so we end up with...well, whatever the fuck this sport has become. I'll just go with 'mainstream' at this point.

 

[Westy]

Yep

that's horrendous trailbuilding

There's some of the most eroded out shit rock and rooted surfaces on the planet that 'flow' better than those messes

But you know how to deal with those bad match jump to speed trails because you've been riding bikes for longer than 5 minutes. Now trailbikes come with formerly dh bike geometry and big wheels that roll over most things meaning understanding terrain is less important, ready made trails that the shop that sells you that bike tells you is built for the bike you're buying, and there's a failed IQ test on every mountain.

Some people just shouldn't be riding mountain bikes and some people just shouldn't be building trails. Yet there's money in both so we end up with...well, whatever the fuck this sport has become. I'll just go with 'mainstream' at this point.

They are actually building a whole new park here with what I believe will be entirely poorly built flow trails. Fine by me. I will never go there and never have to witness someone with brain damage and hamburger face.

 

[kidwoo]

They are actually building a whole new park here with what I believe will be entirely poorly built flow trails. Fine by me. I will never go there and never have to witness someone with brain damage and hamburger face.

Yeah it's a bit of chicken vs egg.

I call them diversion trails. I'm glad they're there but I'm not sure there'd be so many sprinter vans in the parking lot anywhere else if that dynamic wasn't becoming ubiquitous.

Sorry about the afternoon. That shit sucks to see.

 

[boostindoubles]

@Westy You rode Raging River today right? Yeah that flow trail to and from the loop is just stupid. Hang on, don't think, wear your arms out in the braking bumps. It's just dangerous to haul ass on such boring trail that has poorly spaced rolls and lips.

I rode a trail in Bandon that had a black diamond warning but nothing else. I went in cautiously and found the first couple jumps were rollable. Sweet, rollable jump line! So I roll into the next jump, a decent stepdown with a bike swallowing hole between the lip and landing. I ate SHIT into that hole.

Who builds trail like that wtf.

 

[Poops McDougal]

Low key day today, because shit’s been bananas lately. Picked up some heavy things and then put them back down, put together a new cabinet for the garage, and moved some tools into the new tool chest.

Now the Tiny One is being fussy, so it’s time for a beer.

 

[Westy]

Low key day today, because shit’s been bananas lately. Picked up some heavy things and then put them back down, put together a new cabinet for the garage, and moved some tools into the new tool chest.
View attachment 195941

Now the Tiny One is being fussy, so it’s time for a beer.
View attachment 195942
View attachment 195943

I thought kids preferred wine or brandy?

 

[kidwoo]

@Westy So I roll into the next jump, a decent stepdown with a bike swallowing hole between the lip and landing. I ate SHIT into that hole.

Who builds trail like that wtf.

Well to be fair, I do, but they're not public trails per se, and I did it specifically to kill a highly targeted demographic.

 

[Poops McDougal]

I thought kids preferred wine or brandy?

Hipster baby prefers to be seen drinking IPA’s.

 

[jstuhlman]

know what's also teh suck @Westy amd @kidwoo? When there are awesome trails that used to just get left alone for the locals to clear downfall off of and keep the corridor open and suddenly mountain biking is popular an local clubs start to step in and re-route and make things "sustainable" and add a billionty turns and switchbacks and then say "don't worry in a few years it will be awesome". (spoiler alert: it won't). First they started ruining shit in pisgah proper. then they came for the other pisgah. such sads. i felt like i'd put in my time digging on the one local trail we had control over and maintaining things in the other pisgah when i could. i feel like i'm gonna have to get back to it though. i've also begun poaching more remote hiking trails (on which i never see hikers). shhhh don't tell anyone. *sigh*

 

[kidwoo]

know what's also teh suck @Westy amd @kidwoo? When there are awesome trails that used to just get left alone for the locals to clear downfall off of and keep the corridor open and suddenly mountain biking is popular an local clubs start to step in and re-route and make things "sustainable" and add a billionty turns and switchbacks and then say "don't worry in a few years it will be awesome". (spoiler alert: it won't). First they started ruining shit in pisgah proper. then they came for the other pisgah. such sads. i felt like i'd put in my time digging on the one local trail we had control over and maintaining things in the other pisgah when i could. i feel like i'm gonna have to get back to it though. i've also begun poaching more remote hiking trails (on which i never see hikers). shhhh don't tell anyone. *sigh*

correct

and that's right about the time I quit riding mountainbikes

It was bad enough fighting against the agencies. When it became fighting against supposed other mountainbikers fucking up trails, I knew it was bigger than anything I could stay on top of. I can't build fast enough to build every trail I want to ride and the ones other people built that I enjoyed were becoming unenjoyable.

Pisgah is the reason I decided to move somewhere to mountainbike. No forgiveness. I know the rugged that place represented.

 

[jimmydean]

It's kinda funny, I grew up about 8 blocks from the county fair grounds. You could hear the tractor pulls and dirt races on the weekends. Now I just happen to live a half mile from the county fair grounds and I can hear the dirt track races.

We haven't gone to one in a while, they are better than people watching at the Walmart.

 

[kidwoo]

Hipster baby prefers to be seen drinking IPA’s.

free baby trebuchet rides

inquire within

 

[6thElement]

Have not ridden Pisgah since 2013...

 

[Westy]

@Westy You rode Raging River today right? Yeah that flow trail to and from the loop is just stupid. Hang on, don't think, wear your arms out in the braking bumps. It's just dangerous to haul ass on such boring trail that has poorly spaced rolls and lips.

I rode a trail in Bandon that had a black diamond warning but nothing else. I went in cautiously and found the first couple jumps were rollable. Sweet, rollable jump line! So I roll into the next jump, a decent stepdown with a bike swallowing hole between the lip and landing. I ate SHIT into that hole.

Who builds trail like that wtf.

Yeah, I fucking hate that trail. The braking bumps are my favorite part. If I don't have a selection of lines at least my wrists can hurt.

 

[kidwoo]

Have not ridden Pisgah since 2013...

<have not ridden pisgah since 2000 but #neverforget

that place is gettin paved

and it fuckin sucks

 

[boostindoubles]

Well to be fair, I do, but they're not public trails per se, and I did it specifically to kill a highly targeted demographic.

Gapped stepdowns aren't a big deal but do you build two rollable jumps and then follow it up with a blind gap? You know, in a tourist zone with lots of non-locals riding it for the first time. It's easy to make a little sign that says "gap jumps ahead".

 

[kidwoo]

Gapped stepdowns aren't a big deal but do you build two rollable jumps and then follow it up with a blind gap? You know, in a tourist zone with lots of non-locals riding it for the first time. It's easy to make a little sign that says "gap jumps ahead".

I never built a tabletop on the trails I was referencing.

However on public trails I've worked on, I've spent most of my time de-collarbone catastrophizing most of them because they were built by idiots.


I mean to be fair though I don't trust a god damn thing anyone else has ever built ever so I also never just send or roll anything I can't see the runout on.

But yes, all legal purpose built trails should be rollable. Anyway, have I mentioned that most of the people building public trails are idiots? I need to get that in the record.

 

[Westy]

know what's also teh suck @Westy amd @kidwoo? When there are awesome trails that used to just get left alone for the locals to clear downfall off of and keep the corridor open and suddenly mountain biking is popular an local clubs start to step in and re-route and make things "sustainable" and add a billionty turns and switchbacks and then say "don't worry in a few years it will be awesome". (spoiler alert: it won't). First they started ruining shit in pisgah proper. then they came for the other pisgah. such sads. i felt like i'd put in my time digging on the one local trail we had control over and maintaining things in the other pisgah when i could. i feel like i'm gonna have to get back to it though. i've also begun poaching more remote hiking trails (on which i never see hikers). shhhh don't tell anyone. *sigh*

I had that problem in Charlottesville. Not that the trails were any good to begin with but people kept cutting roots and removing rocks for "sustainability". Literally removing the only thing that was holding that shit soil together.

Often I would go out and build/maintain trail right before they planned a work session so it got done right. Leave them nothing to do but cut back brush.

 

[kidwoo]

Often I would go out and build/maintain trail right before they planned a work session so it got done right. Leave them nothing to do but cut back brush.

I moved flagging and made obvious corridors a few times before hellamegacommunitytraildayzthenIPAs events

 

[boostindoubles]

@kidwoo I rolled the first two jumps and was stoked that the trail builders had done the good work. I regretted my trust on their jump building. I found other jump lines there and was equally unimpressed with the quality. Poorly designed jumps are just flat out dangerous. If you can't build them safe, dont build em at all!

Trail building is full of jackasses who think they know and then they find out. People get hurt in the meantime.

 

[Westy]

I moved flagging and made obvious corridors a few times before hellamegacommunitytraildayzthenIPAs events

Yeah, that and covering shit lines with tons of deadfall. The dumbest are usually the laziest.

 

[boostindoubles]

Since I've been building mtb trail here, I've seen plenty of people come and go. They all show up stoked and ready to go but when they learn the parameters for sustainable trail and that their visions don't work, they're unwilling to compromise and end up walking off the landscape.

Nobody wants to cut their teeth and learn, they're all experts before they've even built 10ft of trail.

Flow trails, bro! What do you mean we can't stack dirt in August?

 

[Westy]

Since I've been building mtb trail here, I've seen plenty of people come and go. They all show up stoked and ready to go but when they learn the parameters for sustainable trail and that their visions don't work, they're unwilling to compromise and end up walking off the landscape.

Nobody wants to cut their teeth and learn, they're all experts before they've even built 10ft of trail.

Flow trails, bro! What do you mean we can't stack dirt in August?

A foot of moon dust makes for soft landings.

 

[kidwoo]

What do you mean we can't stack dirt in August?

Well I mean you can.

There just might be a breeze in september.

 

[kidwoo]

A foot of moon dust makes for soft landings.

That's the spirit!

I can think of two maxillofacial incidents that might have benefited.

 

[jstuhlman]

some of my most fulfilling days of trailbuilding were building back jumps that xc bros got mad that they couldn't roll and subsequently destroyed just a bit bigger and reinforced with rebar this time. i also enjoy dropping even larger rocks into go-arounds that were made to avoid rocks.

 

[boostindoubles]

Well I mean you can.

There just might be a breeze in september.

More than likely it'll all need to be restacked in November...

 

[kidwoo]

More than likely it'll all need to be restacked in November...

no 100% it will need to be restacked in november

The important part is the instagram posts for august

 

[boostindoubles]

no 100% it will need to be restacked in november

The important part is the instagram posts for august

This was me last week... cutting in a reroute after we lost access to half a trail. We're just removing dirt for a cut bed. Stacking and packing an edge would be impossible. I did see some dampness about 18" down a cut in one steep spot. Swinging tools in moon dust sucks.

 

[iRider]

I mean to be fair though I don't trust a god damn thing anyone else has ever built ever so I also never just send or roll anything I can't see the runout on.

This! Why should every trail be rideable blind at full speed the first time you are on it? Never understood this concept, especially when it is marked red or black.

 

[iRider]

Gapped stepdowns aren't a big deal but do you build two rollable jumps and then follow it up with a blind gap? You know, in a tourist zone with lots of non-locals riding it for the first time. It's easy to make a little sign that says "gap jumps ahead".

Didn't you write it was marked as black diamond? Sorry, that should be enough. The rest is Darwin at work.

 

[iRider]

and that's right about the time I quit riding mountainbikes

It was bad enough fighting against the agencies. When it became fighting against supposed other mountainbikers fucking up trails, I knew it was bigger than anything I could stay on top of. I can't build fast enough to build every trail I want to ride and the ones other people built that I enjoyed were becoming unenjoyable.

I still cannot believe you stopped riding. I am missing your stories and edits (the kids would call them shreddits these days ).

While I do not like where the current trail trend is going, some of the trails that get build are actually OK to ride and reasonable fun. I see it a little bit like everyday food and fancy food. The everyday trails keep me alive until I have the possibility to get to the good stuff and thoroughly enjoy it.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

In Vermont, things have been trending to berm highways with stutter bumps... Also signed up for Flowfest only to see them pimping an ebike group ride...

With my general lack of competence I usually ride any new trail at a slow pace unless I'm following someone who knows it and knows my skill level. After I learn it I can ride so as to fall on my ass.

 

[boostindoubles]

Didn't you write it was marked as black diamond? Sorry, that should be enough. The rest is Darwin at work.

I wont argue that. First time is the charm! I havent eaten poop on it since the first lap but still! They set me up for that poop.

 

[Jozz]

Good reading this morning. Thanks @Westy @kidwoo @boostindoubles @jstuhlman , I feel less alone in my internal struggle. Haven't been on my bike for two weeks after latest round of "trail maintenance" that has been done in my backyard trails. I've seemed to have settled into some sort of mild depression because of my profound attachment to those trails. I have at least the chance to build fun stuff somewhere else and getting paid to do it. Owner of the 2000 acres domain doesn't want any machine built trails or flow or jump trails. Might have to move there in the near future.

 

[boostindoubles]

@Jozz 2000 acres is enough land to keep your head down for a while! Whats the elevation change across the landscape?

 

[Jozz]

@Jozz 2000 acres is enough land to keep your head down for a while! Whats the elevation change across the landscape?

It's also surrounded by Crown lands, lots of options for under the radar trails. Elevation change is between 600 to a 1000 feet. Lots of Canadian shield boulders and slabs to play with.

 

[slyfink]

I'm not gonna blame the trail builders for my misshap yesterday, but the section I binned it in was always a steep chute with lots of rocks in it. Yesterday was the kind of slick where you'd swear the rocks are sweating. The main problem is that there are now 10" deep ruts on either side of the rocks, washed away by erosion. The trails above that section have been bermed up and smoothed over. Ironically enough, there's now a catch berm below the chute that is also redone and looking fresh. I just wish they'd put a tenth of the effort into fixing the ruts as they do into building berms... That said, it was my fault for not stopping to scope out the line in the greasy conditions. Even if of I've ridden that section scores of times before...

 

[Jozz]

I'm not gonna blame the trail builders for my misshap yesterday, but the section I binned it in was always a steep chute with lots of rocks in it. Yesterday was the kind of slick where you'd swear the rocks are sweating. The main problem is that there are now 10" deep ruts on either side of the rocks, washed away by erosion. The trails above that section have been bermed up and smoothed over. Ironically enough, there's now a catch berm below the chute that is also redone and looking fresh. I just wish they'd put a tenth of the effort into fixing the ruts as they do into building berms... That said, it was my fault for not stopping to scope out the line in the greasy conditions. Even if of I've ridden that section scores of times before...

When a trail section deteriorate to the point of becoming a hazard, then yes I would blame the people in charge of maintaining the network. How's the shoulder?