Hmmm... So going off of that info, a 50mm range for a given travel is ok?
Brian
Brian
05 Marzocchi 888 Low Crowns
- Thread starter 1soulrider
- Start date
nah its not "ok" nor ist it "not ok".Brian Peterson said:
its just whats available on the market.
so people have to use that info (a to c length) when they decide what fork to buy and frame makers have to tell their customers the fork length they adjusted the given frame to.
its just another compatibility(sp?) issue when building a bike from scratch.
I should have been a little more clear in my last response... Judging by your "rant" I can see where you stand... Basically, as a large scale manufacturer, it is impossible for us to make a product that will suit everybody for every application...
Brian
Brian
In all fairness, the 8" 888 with stocker crowns doesn't sit much taller than the S8, the Champ 8, or the MTN8 ever did. It's just that back then (when the S8 and Champ were slaying the FR market 
), Scott here at GR wasn't as big of a nerd as he is now, or at least didn't have the same resources to allow him to nerd out to the extent of making his own fork parts. 
), Scott here at GR wasn't as big of a nerd as he is now, or at least didn't have the same resources to allow him to nerd out to the extent of making his own fork parts.
thats the point that makes the complaints even more ridiculous.Brian Peterson said:
M is offering a product in nearly every niche; at least dh worthy forks in various axle to crown lengths and travel specifications.
anyways i am with the people who say that the regular crowns aren't great engineering.
so: since i didn't like them i bought something else(which has other issues though, death to answers slow reaction regarding the x works).
i will continue to do so until marzocchi builds and sells something that fits my personal needs.
or i get access to a CNC or a lathe and i can build the mod myself!
btw brian and james you guys are both doing a good job advertising your products without being too offensive or abrasive to each other!
and respect to two nice industry people on here!Regardless of what we do as a fork manufacturer, there is always going to be someone who isn't happy... And that is the case with almost any field... Hell, look at how many companies are doing quite well making crowns for motorcycles...
But, we have to go with set ups that fit the broadest range of applications... That includes both OEM and aftermarket sales....
Brian
But, we have to go with set ups that fit the broadest range of applications... That includes both OEM and aftermarket sales....
Brian
It would be nice if you had the option at the time of initial purchase as to whether you wanted the tall or short crowns but since Marzocchi USA is offering the short crowns they really have no choice but to offer it as an upgrade only. Otherwise what would they do with all the leftover tall crowns (too many to bank on selling separate)? If Italy would ship the forks crown-less and the crowns were a separate part# then that would make it possible but until they do I really believe people should be glad there is a factory non warranty-voiding option on the market. I still don't think it's a huge deal to either order a works fork or sell the tall crowns straight away to someone who needs a longer steerer and use that money to recoup some of the cost of short crowns.
The 888 is the best performing, most reasonably priced DH fork to ever hit the market and it seems like a lot of folks are overlooking that If you don't want to buy short crowns but you do want an 8" DH fork, just buy a Dorado X-Works or a DH40 for about $2000. Oh wait, the Dorado never worked right and the DH40 can't make it to market... 
I guess you'll have to just get the 888 which is still cheaper even with the short crowns.
The 888 is the best performing, most reasonably priced DH fork to ever hit the market and it seems like a lot of folks are overlooking that
If you don't want to buy short crowns but you do want an 8" DH fork, just buy a Dorado X-Works or a DH40 for about $2000. Oh wait, the Dorado never worked right and the DH40 can't make it to market... I guess you'll have to just get the 888 which is still cheaper even with the short crowns.
Well even though Bizutch thinks I already spread too much of my "dogma" around I have this to add:
All of these discussions are based on the assumption that the fork is as low as it will go while still clearing the tire at full travel. Well hey, one of the nice things about a dual crown is that they're adjustable. If the front end is too steep, the rider can raise the crowns and get a slacker head angle. The converse is not true, if the front end is too slack there's nothing you can do if the crowns are already as low as they go.
So although it's a convenient convenient argument that might get you a few points on the debate team, frankly I think it's crap to say that only the stock crowns work for some people, and that those people couldn't use the lowriders if they were stock. Sure maybe there are some out there but it's gotta be a lot less than the number of people asking for lowriders.
So with few exceptions the range of adjustment allowed by the lowrider versions WILL work for every reasonable application - by that I mean they will work for everyone who's bike was designed around a 7" or 8" DH fork of fairly recent vintage, regardless of differences in actual A-C dimension. They will certainly work for more people than the stock crowns...
Whatever, the horse is dead. Long live the horse!
All of these discussions are based on the assumption that the fork is as low as it will go while still clearing the tire at full travel. Well hey, one of the nice things about a dual crown is that they're adjustable. If the front end is too steep, the rider can raise the crowns and get a slacker head angle. The converse is not true, if the front end is too slack there's nothing you can do if the crowns are already as low as they go.
So although it's a convenient convenient argument that might get you a few points on the debate team, frankly I think it's crap to say that only the stock crowns work for some people, and that those people couldn't use the lowriders if they were stock. Sure maybe there are some out there but it's gotta be a lot less than the number of people asking for lowriders.
So with few exceptions the range of adjustment allowed by the lowrider versions WILL work for every reasonable application - by that I mean they will work for everyone who's bike was designed around a 7" or 8" DH fork of fairly recent vintage, regardless of differences in actual A-C dimension. They will certainly work for more people than the stock crowns...
Whatever, the horse is dead. Long live the horse!
Brian, you guys should talk to Marzocchi IT about offering the '06 888 RCXTSW (I'm assuming that's what it will be called) with bionic crowns that you can plug into your PDA to morph the height of the crowns to your desire, and also change the offset and color. And in a pinch, you could remove them from your bike and put them in your shoulder if you separate it trying to hit one of the "doubles" at Big Bear when you're poaching DH runs.
:love:
:love:
Sounds cute. Put me down for 2.James | Go-Ride said:
Damn... Who told you about that??James | Go-Ride said:
Brian
actually mud head, if you wanna raise them up and you are the person who has an exta tall head tube, then you would not be able to. so you'd might need the stock upper crowns to "drop" down far enough to clamp the uppers. Had this issue on the Shiver back when it came on an RM9 and had to get the drop crowns...just for tire clearance.OGRipper said:
Was it Marzocchi's fault for making 2 separate crowns for it? Nope. I blame it on the industry not having an industry standard top tube for triple crown forks. Marzocchi was cool and had me send back the flat crown and swapped it out for the tall crown free of charge.
Until there is an industry standard for head tube length and headset stack height, you're always going to have to adjust your forks hardware to your preferred setup. If you want a custom frame, you're gonna have to pay more to customize your forks hardware to fit it.
I don't blame Rocky for specing the flat crowns or Marzocchi for not selling me both crowns at the same time. I'm the one who wanted to run a custom tire setup (Michelin 2.8) so if Marzocchi or Rocky wanted to charge me more, that would be OK because I was requesting custom setup. Now, if I had the same frame and a 888, I wouldn't have had to order the custom top crown to accomodate my custom tire choice. Marzocchi's purpose was to make a fork that accomodated custom tire choices, thus giving frame manufactureres a more versatile stock bike spec..and the consumer a more versatile ride.
If you the consumer wish to run a 888 and it doesn't mate to the angles of the manufacturer by raking it out or making the front too tall for your riding...you then wish to customize your setup. That means you should have no problem paying more to customize your setup.
In motocross, tires are pretty much at an international standard and so are headtubes and headsets. There is no issue whatsoever in the fork manufacturer's business of having to sell custom crowns along with their forks to accomodate various tire sizes or geometry choices for the consumer.
But, boy you better believe if they had to accomodate for those things, they ALL would charge you EXTRA for it.
Marzocchi is doing their best to accomodate the biggest bunch of spoiled consumers the world has ever seen. And I for one think they are doing an awesome job of it!
Call up SHOWA and bitch that they don't offer custom crowns for you to rake out or steepen the front end of your CR250. See what happens.
Our industry is spoiled and people want all the bells and whistles for free and want every manufacturer to bow to their idiosyncrosies (hope I spelled it right). In motocross, you buy it...you race it. You wanna upgrade, fork over the dough.
Butch,
1 thing on that.... There is no standard on headstock, steertubes, ect on the motorcycles. Your front end from a KX 250 will not fit a CR 250... Hell, compared to motorcycles, fitting a front end on a bicycle is easy...
Brian
1 thing on that.... There is no standard on headstock, steertubes, ect on the motorcycles. Your front end from a KX 250 will not fit a CR 250... Hell, compared to motorcycles, fitting a front end on a bicycle is easy...
Brian
Hey, it's capitalism. Don't like the way Marzo's doing business, don't buy their product. Think it's ridiculous to buy aftermarket crowns? Then don't; there are alternatives to buying Marzocchi. If you want it, pay the price.
Yeah, I'd think we as consumers would be better served by having flat crowns come stock, or by sizing the product like Manitou, or giving you an option to customize your crown choice, but it's their buisiness plan. They'll charge what the market will bear, and have to weigh the less-tangible benefits of meeting various consumer wants with the financial cost of doing it.
As for MotoX, well, at least when you crash a moto, you get a warranty replacement form the manufacturer, right?
MD
Yeah, I'd think we as consumers would be better served by having flat crowns come stock, or by sizing the product like Manitou, or giving you an option to customize your crown choice, but it's their buisiness plan. They'll charge what the market will bear, and have to weigh the less-tangible benefits of meeting various consumer wants with the financial cost of doing it.
As for MotoX, well, at least when you crash a moto, you get a warranty replacement form the manufacturer, right?
MD
I can't help but wonder how many people call the local shop with this... "I just bought my new CKRZ 450 and cased a triple on my first day out... Is my cracked frame and destroyed wheels a warranty? What do you mean no?!?!"MikeD said:As for MotoX, well, at least when you crash a moto, you get a warranty replacement form the manufacturer, right?
MD
Brian
ARRRGGGGHH
Folks, please for the love of all things holy and Tony Danza, listen to me.
Marzocchi Italy, aka "MarzoIT" from here on out, the actual company that produces the forks, is one company. Marzocchi USA, where BP works, is NOT a part of Marzocchi Italy. Marzocchi USA is the company making the flat crowns, which feature a licensed MarzoIT logo up front and, as an official distributor for MarzoIT, will not void the warranty.
HOWEVER, since they are not actually a part of MarzoIT, and have to pay for the forks to get to California from Italy with the stock crowns already on them, there is no reason for Marzocchi USA to give their flat crowns away for free.
ALSO, since MarzoIT is NOT making flat crowns, they're not going to do anything about making their crowns different. I highly doubt that many people are complaining actively to the parent company in Italy.
In short, MarzoIT doesn't care that we don't like their crowns, at least not yet based on the number of people who still have the stock crowns on their bikes. Marzocchi USA shouldn't have to include their flatcrowns with MarzoIT's fork for free, that would be absurd.
Everybody who's asking about drop crowns doing this or that, or "tire clearance," etc etc PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE use the search fuction. This subject has been hashed to death about every other week since we brought our crowns out (for the sake of accuracy, ours were first by a long shot, Marzocchi didn't realize the market for flat crowns existed until we'd already made them) in October '03.
Folks, please for the love of all things holy and Tony Danza, listen to me.
Marzocchi Italy, aka "MarzoIT" from here on out, the actual company that produces the forks, is one company. Marzocchi USA, where BP works, is NOT a part of Marzocchi Italy. Marzocchi USA is the company making the flat crowns, which feature a licensed MarzoIT logo up front and, as an official distributor for MarzoIT, will not void the warranty.
HOWEVER, since they are not actually a part of MarzoIT, and have to pay for the forks to get to California from Italy with the stock crowns already on them, there is no reason for Marzocchi USA to give their flat crowns away for free.
ALSO, since MarzoIT is NOT making flat crowns, they're not going to do anything about making their crowns different. I highly doubt that many people are complaining actively to the parent company in Italy.
In short, MarzoIT doesn't care that we don't like their crowns, at least not yet based on the number of people who still have the stock crowns on their bikes. Marzocchi USA shouldn't have to include their flatcrowns with MarzoIT's fork for free, that would be absurd.
Everybody who's asking about drop crowns doing this or that, or "tire clearance," etc etc PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE use the search fuction. This subject has been hashed to death about every other week since we brought our crowns out (for the sake of accuracy, ours were first by a long shot, Marzocchi didn't realize the market for flat crowns existed until we'd already made them) in October '03.
What's normal is that as forks increase in travel, the AC height should increase by the same amount. Most bikes on the market before the 888 were designed around a typical 7" marzocchi fork, with a 21.25 height. If you go put an 888 on any bike that was designed to be slack with a 21" fork, you're going to end up with a chopper. If the 888 had only been an inch taller, it might have been okay on these bikes. But you must draw the limit somewhere, and going from a 66.5 head angle to 64 is not acceptable.Brian Peterson said:
If such ridiculous head angles were acceptable, companies would not have adjusted the head angles on their 2004-2005 bikes to accomodate the 888.
This was the norm:
7 Manitou Dorado (21.0)
7 Rock Shox Boxxer is (21.0)
7" 04 Super T (21.25)
Is there a REASON the 888 had to be more than an inch taller?
right the 888s are the best forks out for the money and as it has been said before you know that 888s are taller and you will probally need the flat crowns so if you dont want to buy flat crowns at extra then dont buy the 888s its as simple as that buy any other fork and stop ranting.
i love the 888s and am going for another set this year and flat crowns again as they rule.
so stop ranting about rubbish and chose to buy or not make that choice :mumble:
i love the 888s and am going for another set this year and flat crowns again as they rule.
so stop ranting about rubbish and chose to buy or not make that choice :mumble:
Nickaziz...you officially have won the bitter rider of the year award..congrats it's only February....D
Hahaha, this is hilarious. What the hell is a mud head?
Bizutch you give an example of someone with an extra tall head tube. Well yeah that person might need a special crown, no kidding - it's a special frame, with special needs. Same is true with someone that wants to run "custom" tires. And needing a taller upper crown has nothing to do with the A-C dimension, which is what this (formerly good natured) debate was about.
I've said before that my relationship with the 888 is love-hate. Same with shimano. Great stuff, could be better. And 'Zoke seems to recognize that, that's why they offer the lowriders and the LS compression sleeve. It's just frustrating to need to pay for "upgrades" that IMO should come with the fork for a fraction of the full markup you end up paying after the fact.
You're entitled to your opinion, and so am I. MikeD is right that we're all free to choose another fork. We're also free to express an opinion on how a great fork could be better. No need to get so worked up about it, I've said enough good things about the fork, Brian, and 'Zoke that it should be clear (even if you don't get it) that I'm just trying to give one more owner's perspective. And I'll stand by my last post, most riders who think the stock crowns work ok would be fine with the lowriders. The fact that exceptions exist doesn't make that any less valid.
Take a nap or something, yeesh.
Bizutch you give an example of someone with an extra tall head tube. Well yeah that person might need a special crown, no kidding - it's a special frame, with special needs. Same is true with someone that wants to run "custom" tires. And needing a taller upper crown has nothing to do with the A-C dimension, which is what this (formerly good natured) debate was about.
I've said before that my relationship with the 888 is love-hate. Same with shimano. Great stuff, could be better. And 'Zoke seems to recognize that, that's why they offer the lowriders and the LS compression sleeve. It's just frustrating to need to pay for "upgrades" that IMO should come with the fork for a fraction of the full markup you end up paying after the fact.
You're entitled to your opinion, and so am I. MikeD is right that we're all free to choose another fork. We're also free to express an opinion on how a great fork could be better. No need to get so worked up about it, I've said enough good things about the fork, Brian, and 'Zoke that it should be clear (even if you don't get it) that I'm just trying to give one more owner's perspective. And I'll stand by my last post, most riders who think the stock crowns work ok would be fine with the lowriders. The fact that exceptions exist doesn't make that any less valid.
Take a nap or something, yeesh.
Ok.. One of the biggest reasons is tire clearence. Several large OEM accounts said they would not spec the fork unless it cleared a 3.0 tire... Why? I don't know. But, you can find a whole bunch of people who didn't like the tire clearence on the 03 Super T.. We made it a little better for 04, but without a total scraping of that platform, it ain't changing much more.
And yes, Go-Ride did come out with their flat crowns first. That is also what most likely started people calling us looking for a similar item. So, Go-Ride has now done something to make their crown different by added a shorter, lower stem option. Honestly, the guys at Go-Ride are real good at giving me usable feed back that I can pass on to the right people. But, what works for Scott or Krispy may not work for everybody.... And they are the first to say so.
Brian
And yes, Go-Ride did come out with their flat crowns first. That is also what most likely started people calling us looking for a similar item. So, Go-Ride has now done something to make their crown different by added a shorter, lower stem option. Honestly, the guys at Go-Ride are real good at giving me usable feed back that I can pass on to the right people. But, what works for Scott or Krispy may not work for everybody.... And they are the first to say so.
Brian
Mud-head is a good natured term that I reached back and pulled out of my backside....i.e. ....gibberish.
Brian,
Thanks for shooting my thesis down....now answer the phone so I can order my Works 888RC. I'm flying to Brazil next week for the downtown DH to race Gracia through the city streets of Santos!!!
You guys would really appreciate my sense of humor if we were in person.
Brian,
Thanks for shooting my thesis down....now answer the phone so I can order my Works 888RC. I'm flying to Brazil next week for the downtown DH to race Gracia through the city streets of Santos!!!
You guys would really appreciate my sense of humor if we were in person.
When push comes to shove I think the 888RC with lowriders or Risse's is the best bang for the buck when it comes to dh forks. Even after the compression sleave it is still cheaper than most top of the line dh forks. I haven't ridden an Avalanche or a Foes XTD so I can't comment on them, but I think the 888 fits the bill pretty damn good. That is pretty odd about not wanting to spec for less than a 3.0 tire though. I guess a clogged 2.7 could be that big, but not too many companies spec Gazza's on bikes.
Bizutch... Call me back... The email I have for you keeps bounching the forms back at me...
Brian
Brian
thank you....renegade999 said:
nickaziz said:This was the norm:
7” Manitou Dorado (21.0”
7” Rock Shox Boxxer is (21.0”
7" ’04 Super T (21.25”
Apologise straight up for being a n00b buuut... does this mean that the 7" 888 w/ drop crowns is still higher than all those forks? I'm guessing this on the 21.5" A-C quoted in another thread for the 7" lowered 888. Is that accurate?
The .25-.5" difference between most forks and the 170 888 with lowrider crowns is relatively insignificant. With the standard ("drop") crowns on the 888, it's a significant difference (over an inch) to some of us.
MD
MD
Assuming all those measurements are accurate, yes it would be taller. 1/8" tallertoodles said:
renegade999 said:
Heh, where'd you get that pic of me? Man that was a muddy race.
Heh, yeah that's ok. Just confirming the measurements before I look into getting one. A new fork is pretty expensive if I can't get the bike steering properly.Dogboy said:Assuming all those measurements are accurate, yes it would be taller. 1/8" taller
Your going to love your Works 888 :heart: .bizutch said:Mud-head is a good natured term that I reached back and pulled out of my backside....i.e. ....gibberish.
Brian,
Thanks for shooting my thesis down....now answer the phone so I can order my Works 888RC. I'm flying to Brazil next week for the downtown DH to race Gracia through the city streets of Santos!!!
and I may put it to a major test immediately. Who wants to host the video of last's year's event. I'm talking guys tying together 2 stair gaps in a row at full race pace and tons more to go? I've got it saved on my hard drive...anyone?