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12 x150mm axle

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by hick_huckster01, Mar 16, 2008.

  1. hick_huckster01

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    Hey,

    I am looking at getting a new axle. I am really looking to save some weight. who do you know makes the lightest axle? I know the sicklines transition build had a hadley one they said save a bunch of weight.

    What do you think my chances of finding a Ti one are?
     

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  2. Damo

    Damo Short One Marshmallow

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    Whats wrong with the alloy ones?

    You are looking in the wrong area to save weight...

    Upon saying that, if you are still keen, they are available, but I can't help you where...
     
  3. Tmeyer

    Tmeyer Monkey

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    I put an Azonic axle on my glory, saved a bunch of weight over the stock boat anchor they give you. Got it on Ebay for around 35 I believe?
     
  4. jvnixon

    jvnixon Turbo Monkey

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    Any 12x150mm aluminum axle should work fine. Sun-Ringle makes a cheap one.
     
  5. Old_Sckool

    Old_Sckool Monkey

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    Ti is lighter then steel not aluminum. You'll find a aluminum axle much easier then a Ti, thats for sure.
     
  6. DhDork

    DhDork Monkey

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    Think you might want to check up on that.
     
  7. Bikerpunk241

    Bikerpunk241 Monkey

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    Aluminum is lighter, just ti is stronger so they can use thinner walls to achieve the same strength as a thicker tube of aluminum, thus, solid 12mm axle results in light when using aluminum.....
     
  8. DhDork

    DhDork Monkey

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    Ok, yeah. Thats the way I was looking at it. Strength v. Weight. For the same strength, Ti would be lighter. But for the same mass, Al is lighter.
     
  9. Old_Sckool

    Old_Sckool Monkey

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    Well, I knew the techno geeks would jump on my comment. A metallurgist I am not, or even remotely an expert.

    Whatever the tech mumbo jumbo you want to throw around. Ti frames for example, in most cases are heavier then aluminum frames.However, they are lighter then steel, but offer the advantage of being compliant like a steel frame. Hence why they are mainly used on hardtails and road bikes. I would also guess that they're much more durable, just not lighter.

    Titus made a Ti version of the RacerX and it was heavier then the aluminum version, while offering none of the benefits of Ti since it was a fully. Maybe more durable, but hardly worth the extra $$$. Unless you're a gear dork. As you can probably imagine, they dont sell a whole lot of 'em.

    I'll go out on a limb here and say, try and find the lightest road frame of those two materials, and I'll bet you it's aluminum, not Ti. I'll admit, I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

    Edit: accord to Waltworks bikes an aluminum frame can be built on average a 1/2lb less then a steel frame, while a Ti frame can be built on average a 1/3lb lighter then a steel. Rough estimate I know. But its the point I was trying to make.



    Anyway, the main point would have to be that even if a ti axle was lighter then aluminum, it would hardly be enough to make it worth the extra cost. IMHO.
     
  10. Old_Sckool

    Old_Sckool Monkey

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    A quick google netted this:

    Titanium

    This is the middle ground. Titanium is not as strong as steel and it is not as light as aluminum. The result is a frame that has a better ride than aluminum, but weighs more. It doesn't ride as well as steel, but it is lighter. It is very reliable. Titanium frame failures, like steel frame failures, are very rare. Titanium also has another advantage. It doesn't rust. Riders in areas where roads are salted like titanium frames. They don't have to be painted. If the decals get wrecked, new ones are easy to apply.
     
  11. HaveFaith

    HaveFaith Monkey

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    Azonic axle works fine for me, and can be found at a lot of online stores.
     
  12. buildyourown

    buildyourown Turbo Monkey

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    Guess what? Not everything you read on the internet is true!
    If Ti is the "middle ground" why would people pay so much more for the frames? Apples to apples, Ti frame weights are lower than alum.
    Ti ride quality is indistinguishable from steel.
    When people use terms like "not as light as" and "not as strong as", I want to punch my computer. Without going into materials science, whoever wrote that is miseducated.
     
  13. Old_Sckool

    Old_Sckool Monkey

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    I'll accept that. As I said. I'm not claiming to be a expert. Just sighting real world examples. Not text book engineering. Every bike I can ever think of that was built out of aluminum that they also made a Ti version, the Ti version has been heavier (I used the RacerX as an example, but I know there are other that elude me at the moment).

    As far as why some would pay so much for ti frames? I would say its for the ride quality and long term durability. Without the weight of steel. Also the bling factor.

    Perhaps you can give a example of a ti frame that is built lighter then the same frame built out of aluminum. I'd like to see a real world example of a frame that was built out of aluminum and then built out of Ti and ended up being lighter and just as strong. Not trying to be a smart ass. I actually truly curious.

    I don't build bikes as you do. So I'll defer to your expertise. But I would think that although ti is stronger the aluminum you would need to make it out of thinner material to achieve the weight savings. My guess is at some point you have a diminishing return. Say for example , the tubing gets so thin that it dents easily. Not saying this is the case, just a conjecture.

    Again, roadies are the biggest weight weenies out there. Going by what you're saying the lightest alloy frame would have to be Ti. I stick by my original statement that that is not the case. I bet its aluminum. Although this could just be because of the wider availability of specialty tubing.

    BTW. I got that quote in red from Torelli's website. I'll make a mental note that they're idiots and probably shouldn't be building bikes with their misunderstanding of the materials involved. Up until your post, I always thought they built nice bikes and knew what they were doing. Thanks for setting me straight.

    I'll take if for granted that you comment about not believing everything I read on the internet applies to your comments also. :-)
     
  14. buildyourown

    buildyourown Turbo Monkey

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    First, I'm not claiming to be an expert. I do however, have a substantial amount of materials engineering and framebuilding experience that is untainted by marketing.

    As for Torelli's quote: From what I can see, they don't make a Ti bike. They have an interest in convincing you that alum will be lighter.

    Trying to find 2 bikes that are identical except for material is pretty tough. This is pretty dated, but the materials haven't changed
    alum link

    Ti link

    The Ti version is 1/2 lb lighter and the rear ends are identical.
    While I used to work for said company, I no longer have a vesting interest. I'm not even sure if they are still building bikes.
     
  15. DIRTWRKS

    DIRTWRKS Monkey

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    Well as a metalurgist, I can tell you that Ti will never be lighter tha Al given an identical volume. Simple science dictates that since the Specific Gravity of Ti alloys will always be higher than that of Al alloys . That said maybe by using Ti alloys one could get by using thinner tubing and end up using less material than in a comparable Al frame, that is the only way the Ti frame is going to be lighter.

    Taken a step further Magnesium is even lighter than Al or Ti and I was lucky enough to get one of the Lithech Mg XC frames before they went out of production. I think something like 2.6 lbs for the frame, built up a 20lb hardtail without using any ultralight trick components, been riding it for several years now with no issues.
     
  16. buildyourown

    buildyourown Turbo Monkey

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    This is not being argued. Density is black and white.
     
  17. DirtyMike

    DirtyMike Turbo Fluffer

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    I couldnt agree more, looking to save weight in the axle of the bike is all about being able to say..." I shaved 6 more grams....."

    Wheels, cranks, tires, handlebars, fork. Those are the places where savin weight will make a noticable difference with the bike The only place your going to notice the axle is on the scale, not when your riding
     
  18. ChrisKring

    ChrisKring Turbo Monkey

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    just a data point on the axles (rather than the specific gravity/ yield strength debate).

    I have been using the AL axle on my V10 for 3 seasons with no issues. The steel axle on my old DHi and Giant DH Comp were just fine too. Much heavier but no problems.
     
  19. Old_Sckool

    Old_Sckool Monkey

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    Actually Torelli's more of a steel frame company. If they have an axe to grind, it's in favor of steel. Not aluminum.

    They do make aluminum and carbon frames, but steel is the company's flagship. The quote I took was actually a comparison between different frame materials listing there pro's and con's. They definitely were not bashing Ti. I did also quote Waltworks in one of my earlier post also. Same basic answer as Torelli.

    I think we can both agree, there is no perfect frame material. They all have their benefits, depending on your needs.

    I couldn't find the weight for the Ti frame on the link you gave. Perhaps I overlooked it. They do list the weight of the aluminum. I can tell you, most company that do make both a Ti and aluminum model, do not list the Ti weight. Guess they figure they would make fewer sales if buyers new the aluminum was both lighter and cheaper.:busted:

    Anyway. Funny how these threads derail sometimes. :brow:

    My original post was just intended to point out that aluminum was plenty light; and for someone to make a ti axle, even if it was lighter wouldn't really be worth the expense. Especially on a downhill bike. I just tried to quickly point out the obvious and behold, we are into our second page.:disgust1:

    Good fun though.
     
  20. buildyourown

    buildyourown Turbo Monkey

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    Yeah, we kind of went off on a tangent there.

    To the original poster: Alum is by far the better choice for an axle. Since you can't make the axle smaller to take advantage of the higher strength of Ti, you want the least dense material available. That would be aluminum.
    And on certain bikes, it is a decent place to save weight. Giant DH bikes for instance have retardedly heavy solid steel axles.
     
  21. neverwalk

    neverwalk Chimp

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    Actually, the axle on my Glory isn't "solid", it has a tiny hole drilled through..... But still weighs about a pound!!
    I've been looking all over on the web for a SRAM/Rockshox maxle, can't find one.
    Any Al. axle would be an improvement, anyone have a link?
     
  22. Dogboy

    Dogboy Turbo Monkey

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    The Maxle is frame specific. Just an FYI.
     
  23. neverwalk

    neverwalk Chimp

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    Roger that, the Glory comes from the factory with three different dropouts.
    -Regular
    -Through Axle non-threaded
    -Through Threaded (Maxle)
    I just can't locate a Maxle in the aftermarket market....
     
  24. - seb

    - seb Turbo Monkey

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    FWIW the 150x12mm axle on my DHi isn't too weighty at 55g. The end caps & bolts add a further 32g though. Still much lighter than the maxxle on my boxxers (123g).
     
  25. neverwalk

    neverwalk Chimp

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    Don't have a gram scale handy, but the rear axle on the Giants is a really heavy piece of hardware, that looks easy to replace and save some weight, without spending major coinage, or risking reliability. Sure nothing will be as strong, but c'mon.....

    As a "parking lot" weight test, just now, holding the rear axle in one hand was heavier than holding the 20mm Marz. 66 axle AND a Fox 36 20mm axle together in the other hand.
     
  26. Dogboy

    Dogboy Turbo Monkey

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    That's cool. Are you in the US? BTI has them in-stock.
     
  27. neverwalk

    neverwalk Chimp

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    Yup. Northeast. (CT) Thanx for the substantive reply!!
    Which do they have in stock? I was just looking in "skewers". Wrong category?
     
  28. Dogboy

    Dogboy Turbo Monkey

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    Just do a search for Rock Shox - they will be towards the end of the list.
     
  29. neverwalk

    neverwalk Chimp

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    Got it! Thanx muchly.