20 GB iPod vs. iRiver iHP-120

Toshi · Jul 2, 2004

i value ease of use. i use my ipod little enough as it is. the iriver also has the company's supposedly horrible technical support to consider... read the cnet.com user ratings.

syadasti · Jul 2, 2004

Neither

Here is what the owner of DAPreview.com has to say - he owns about a dozen different DAPs - some he got for free and some he he bought with his own money - he bought the Rio Karma with his own money at BB no less:

My favorite DAPs

I've owned or tested these, and here's how they rank, all things considered:

=Full size players=
1. Rio Karma
2. Creative Nomad Jukebox 3
3. Dell DJ
4. Creative Zen Xtra
5. Apple iPod v.3
6. Apple iPod v.2
7. Gateway DMP-X20
8. iRiver iHP-100/120/140
9. Xclef HD-800
10. Philips HDD100
11. edigital O1000/MPIO HD100
12. Creative Nomad Zen (original) & Xclef HD-500

I put some thought into this but some of the criteria is subjective or personal preference so I wouldn't expect everyone to agree. All the players from #5 down have some serious flaw(s), IMO... but in most cases the fault could be addressed through firmware, if they'd only DO it...

Got tired of waiting on Dell and bought the Karma today (Best Buy w/ warantee). $100 premium over an internet purchase, but I guess the peace of mind is worth it. I would have had it much earilier except for the nasty incident with the "Stereo Seperation" (aka Super Sucky) setting on the Karma I originally tested.

With that out of the way, the Karma takes the #1 spot when weighted towards the things I consider most important.

By the way, Rio is the #2 best-selling Brand of mp3 player behind Apple as of March figures.

[edit 05/26: i switched iPod v.3 over the v.2 now after recently using one with updated firmware. touch-activated buttons did not feel overly sensitive anymore, along with a simple but effective on-the-go playlist, Apple lossless codec, and wake-to-alarm features now put it ahead of the previous model)

the reason the iPod ranks below the DJ is due to 1) It's not possible to completely shut it down to save battery life 2) Poor battery life 3) text too long for the screen doesn't scroll when selected 4) unable to delete content from player's GUI 5) lists do not loop A-Z/Z-A 6) could use more dedicated buttons 7) poor value compared to others, retail should be 10% less 8. easily scratched chassis 9) needs a 5-band User EQ, etc.... etc...

well the iPod still scrores higher that others because it's easy to use, Mass Storage device support, very durable, good resale, classy design, hundreds (200+) 3rd party products, iTunes interface, iTunes music store, Scroll wheel, Lossless codec support, blah blah .. it doesn't really matter because you can't turn the stupid thing off. You have to constanly think about plugging it in or else you'll come back in a few days and the powers run down.... FoCK

when you turn ipod "off" it just goes into sleep mode that slowly eats away the remaining battery power. it has a wimpy battery in the first place so after a few days of non-use, its dead. no way to beat it. no option to really shut it down completely and retain power, like other players. dumb. the reason for this scheme is the "instant on" you get, because it's only in sleep mode. all so you can avoid a 5 second bootup.

Regarding the iHP rating:

A) about 40% of the people I've polled on other forums prefer the file/folder view that the iHP offers, as opposed to the iD3-tag database organization used by iPod, Karma, DJ and most others. there are drawbacks to the file/folder configuration but some people prefer it, it lets them micromanage the contents of the drive, it's an easier transition for those who are used to music in a folder heirarchy on their PC, or for people who just don't want to mess with tagging thier tracks. I also suspect some of them don't understand the advantages of letting the player organize the music for you, but it comes down to personal preference.
b) also, it has features that most other players don't, like line-in recording, FM radio, and a powerful remote that can control all functions of the player.

Personally I have no use for ther features listed in B. You can make higher quality MP3's on your PC with EAC/LAME. FM radio? I don't need it considering the thousands of tracks allready loaded. And the remote, while very nice, is just more stuff to carry around that I'm not going to use.

About what I described in part A, I have over 2500 albums and they are all tagged accurately so its much more effecient to let the player manage where they are stored on the hard drive while I just pick from a list of items I want (Artist, Album, Track, etc).

2) I don't have any data about the percentage of failures and whether it's actually higher than competing brands. I havn't seen anything in the press about it. I have however, seen various issues about the iPod in the press from time to time.

oh I forgot, the one thing that really turns me off about the iHP series is the user interface. The joystick controller is really awful - hard to grip so you have to kind of push it from the side, its stiff, MAKES LOUD CLICK, its not speed-sensitive, and they lump too many functions into it. Since its the only volume controller, you can't adjust the volume while navigating file/folders or menus.

the file/folder view is irritating because they have a big FILE icon that eats up a full 20% of the screen space, leaving only 14 characters visible per line. And since it plays tracks in alphabetical order you have to name tracks like "03_Track Name.mp3" to get them to play in the same order as the CD (a must for DJ sets, live concerts, etc) .. which leaves visible only the first 11 characters of a track. not enough. Also, the play buttons on the side (play/pause, stop) don't acutally control play while navigating for some reason, they duplicate navigation functions for going up and down directories... just like the joystick.

The iHP does have an iD3 tag database function, but its useless to me because of a software limitation where it won't read any filenames longer than 52 characters into its dB.

No playlisting. No search function (in file/folder view). EQ is only bass/treble control.

so while it has some advanced features, they totally missed some of the basic ones that people actually use. and so far the only thing they've done with the firmware is make it support song lyrics. yay.

scofflaw23 · Jul 4, 2004

I've had an IRiver IPH-120 since December, and I absoloutely love it. Here are some pluses:
1. Actual 16 hour battery life (on an Ipod you get 8 if you're lucky, and it seems that the batteries are way weaker and deteriorate way fast)
2. USB 2.0(480kps) connection is faster than Firewire (400kps)
3. Excellent sound quality, lots of EQ options, etc.
4. Support for more file types than IPod
5. Great record feature with built-in mic

That said, I think Ipods are easier to use, for sure. So if you appreciate techy advatages, get an IRiver, but if you aren't super electronics-inclined, maybe an IPod is for you.

syadasti · Jul 4, 2004

spookymilk said:
The guy who wrote that review is either A) insanely stupid or B) dosn't know how to use technology. "You can't turn off an iPod" my ass. All you have to do is hold play and it shuts off. I wouldn't trust anything from that technologically challenged baboon :mumble:

Actually its you who doesn't understand technology - the iPod goes into a low-power sleep mode so the battery drains slowly while you aren't using it - the advantage to this is the iPod doesn't have to boot up everytime you use it - the HUGE disadvantage is that it cuts into an already suck arse battery life...

Mattoid · Jul 4, 2004

I just bought myself a Creative Zen Extra 30gb. So far it has been great, the sound quality is wonderful and it is extremely easy to use. Also at 240 bucks at best buy its a pretty good value for 30gb. It comes with a program to help manage your music transfers onto the player, this also works very well. If your trying to buy your mp3 player online you can get this model on the walmart online store for 208.00 (they have a 2 year repalcement plan for 30)

syadasti · Jul 4, 2004

spookymilk said:
Sorry but you're wrong http://www.apple.com/batteries/ipods.html On Apple's site it even says you can turn it off. Press and hold the play button for 2 seconds and it shuts itself down. I have a few friends with them and they can shut them down no problem, Gen 3's to boot. Please don't take this as rude, I don't want to start an e-fight

I'm sorry if you don't understand how computers sleep, but if they do, they require power to maintain the computer state in memory - thats how they allow an almost instant on - no waiting for booting, OS loading, application loading, etc...

When the iPod is turned "off" it goes into sleep mode so you don't have to deal with it starting up (would mean 5-10 seconds of waiting otherwise). The iPod is basically a specialized computing device design to play music that happens to have this sleep mode. This means the battery is slowly drained even when it is turned "off". If you don't use your iPod for one month - the sleeping will completely discharge the battery.

Here is a portions of from Apple.com that mentions sleep or are related to it:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=60945
Sleep
When not playing music, iPod sleeps after a few minutes of inactivity. Sleep is the same as if you turned iPod off by pressing the Play/Pause button for a few seconds. To wake iPod and iPod mini from sleep, press any button and the iPod will wake quickly to the menu. By falling into sleep, iPod goes into a power conservation mode but can wake quickly.

If iPod sleeps while powered, the charging status appears on the screen. When iPod is not powered and sleeps, the screen is blank.

Deep Sleep
If the iPod or iPod mini is left in sleep for about 36 hours, it will fall into deep sleep. To wake iPod from deep sleep, press any button. To wake iPod mini from deep sleep press the Select button. When the iPod wakes from deep sleep, you will see the Apple logo displayed for a short period of time before the menu appears. By falling into deep sleep, the iPod goes into a power conservation mode that requires less power than sleep, but requires more time for the iPod to wake than sleep.

http://www.apple.com/batteries/ipods.html
Hold and pause
It may seem obvious, but set iPod’s hold switch when you aren’t using it. This will prevent iPod controls from inadvertently waking up iPod and using unnecessary power. Also, if you are not listening to iPod, pause it, or turn it off by pressing the play button for two seconds.

http://www.apple.com/ipod/specs.html
Standby time: 1 month when fully charged

You CANNOT turn off the battery period and the owner of DAP knows a lot more about mp3players than you or I - he owns over a dozen of them. He also owns and uses lots of very high-end audio equipment - he knows what works well and what is sh*te...

syadasti · Jul 4, 2004

Mattoid said:
I just bought myself a Creative Zen Extra 30gb. So far it has been great, the sound quality is wonderful and it is extremely easy to use. Also at 240 bucks at best buy its a pretty good value for 30gb. It comes with a program to help manage your music transfers onto the player, this also works very well. If your trying to buy your mp3 player online you can get this model on the walmart online store for 208.00 (they have a 2 year repalcement plan for 30)

Yeah, Creative players (Zen, Zen Xtra, Zen Touch, Dell DJ(OEM for Dell)) are good players - a best bang for your buck

The Creative Zen Touch is a brand new Creative player which is priced very well and has not yet been released/reviewed. It looks like a good bargain that improves on the Zen series:

http://gear.ign.com/objects/687/687682.html

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00028DJTY/ref=pd_pym_ka//103-2847787-0732654?v=glance

Best Buy has a 2 year product protection plan for $40 and Mack Camera also has a program you can buy after the fact for mp3players for around the same price also.

The best legal online music store is:

http://www.allofmp3.com/

Be sure you click on the button on the top for english

They current have 17692 albums 5128 artists, total 214550 songs.

It blows away any other music store out there for quality music downloads in almost any format you could want at a price you can't beat.

Online Encoding Exclusive(OEEX) is the new feature that expands the field of opportunities in Online Encoding.

Online Encoding Exclusive enables you to:
1. Encode music with LossLess encoding algorithms (Monkey's Audio, FLAC and OptimFrog) using the original audio CD as data source.
2. Encode music with our usual encoders (MP3, Ogg, etc.) using the original audio CD as data source.

The price for regular OE is $0.01 USD per megabyte of data. OEEX is a fixed rate of $0.02 USD per megabyte of data.

Note: All media marked available in OEEX format is also available in the standard OE format.

Most of today's popular audio codecs are also called "lossy codecs (mp3, ogg, wma, etc.). The aim of lossy coding is to achieve a smaller file size while retaining the high quality of the audio sample. It is achieved by using algorithms that simplify the original audio signal, ridding it of indiscernible elements and nuances. These differences are not usually recognizable to the human ear. OEEX allows you to download the track in its original format (*), preserving every possible shred of audio data from the original source. You are also given the option to download the track in uncompressed .wav format should you choose to use this option. In order to use this feature, click the appropriate check box. As a result, the files will be encoded from the original audio sample.

Notes:
(*) Copy of original audio CD data in the format PCM / 44.1 Khz / 16 bit.

If you don't understand why this is such a big deal, check out their audio primer - it gives a good overview of audio compression:

http://help.allofmp3.com/help/help.shtml?gs=956&pprm=1

The Rio Karma supports Ogg (lossy) and FLAC(lossless) - so you can get songs in the highest quality possible if you desire :thumb:

Silver · Jul 5, 2004

For what it's worth, I've had and heavily used a 2nd generation iPod for 2 years and have NEVER had any battery issues. The battery lasts for longer than I'd ever care to drive or fly in a day, and that's all I need.

syadasti · Jul 5, 2004

spookymilk said:
Basically I want something that can hold ALOT of songs, be easy to find those songs, easily make playlists, have good sound and a decent battery (6-8 hours might be manageable as this Mp3 player would be for walkin to school and hangin at school, not huge road trips and such) So, if you know what fits in those lines, tell me

PS- I won't be using the standard earbuds supplied with any player I buy, I'll be using Sony V500 Studio Monitor headphones if that counts for anything

I would say the Rio Karma is the best bet - I've owned 4 different CD based and one other HDD based player. The Rio Karma by far is the best player I've owned.

If you are going to be using better earphones and are looking for higher quality audio, the amp on the Rio Karma is higher power than the iPod and has better signal to noise ratio. The Rio Karma does FLAC and Ogg Vorbis in case you want to try that in the future - they are superior music formats at higher bit rates. There are some albums and genres of music that are meant to be played without gaps between songs - the Rio Karma is one of the only players that can do this. Here is what one audio enthusiast had to say about his Rio Karma when used in conjunction with high-end audio equipment and OGG and FLAC:

Audiophile user review, ReverendDeuce wrote:

<<impression 1>>
This is hour #1 with my Karma. So far, I'm in love. I wish firmware updates worked via ethernet so I could be USB-free, but otherwise I've no complaints.

Sound quality is great. I am using an ASL MG-Heat OTL Mk II headphone aplifier with a Westinghouse 5751 prestage tube and EI EL84 power tubes, running in OTL mode with Karma EQ set to bass +2. The sound quality is absolutely spectacular for a portable (obviously the amp is not portable... heh)! Right now I am working with my Ogg files (-q 7) and will be experimenting with FLAC a little later.

Even without the amplifier, the Karma has enough juice to power my Beyerdynamic cans as well as my Grado 325's. This is an amazing little device with astounding sound quality. Apple can bite me. The Sennheiser buds are sort of useless, but passable for freebies! Certainly better than Sony's harbage.

Great work, Rio! This is portable audio nirvana!

<<impression 2>>

Actually, my primary system is just my laptop (2.4ghz, it's a decent one -- but it's almost two years old... a little long in the tooth). Fortunately, the laptop is a Sager, so it comes with all the good parts. The CD-ROM supports C2 error correction and works as good as any Plextor when using EAC to recover discs or make perfect rips.

I *do* have a 24/96 USB sound card (M-Audio Transit USB), but I can't figure out what the folks over at Hydrogen audio are talking about -- to me, it sounds harsh with a terribly muddy high-end. It's almost like everything over 6000hz gets slurred together, it gets grainy. And yes, this is using line out direct to any headphone amp or even my larger hifi tube setup in my living room. I was not happy with it. See, I have a *real* audio-grade DAC in my main system (MSB LinkDAC III Gold), so I am aware of what 24/96 truly sounds like -- and that M-Audio Transit thing is NOT it! But what did I expect from a $70 PC device...

Anyway, to answer your question... the Karma sounds GREAT even without the amp! Naturally, I cannot haul the tube amp around simply due to its size. This was a major concern for me when selecting one of these portables. I'd read that the Zen and the Karma have powerful built in amps for the headphones. The Zen was attractive, but it did not play Ogg or FLAC (I've been an early adopter of Ogg, the format is vastly superior to MP3 and I use FLAC or Monkey for archival of older discs or discs which I want to preserve, I can swap to FLAC -- no big deal, they are the same thing). So, the Karma was it for me. I am pleased as punch over the choice so far. The headphones sound great with it, the parametric EQ does a fantastic job and is a welcomed addition, the availability of Java tools, the openness of Rio towards end users, and eathernet in the base (yay, I don't have to use another USB port -- laptop only has four ports).

Getting the Karma was a no brainer and having the high-quality sound available really, really makes me pleased! I hope they don't mess it up with the Karma 2.

The Rio Karma has upto a 16 hr battery life (if you turn on a lot of processing features like 5-band EQ, custom fades between songs, use higher quality formats etc the battery life will decrease a little).

As far as features - they have ethernet support for file transfer on any OS with Java support or for use as your own music server for streaming audio. It supports all the popular formats - OGG, FLAC, WMA, MP3, etc. The file system is a journaled filesystem (a journaled filesystem is especially needed on a HDD based player due to HDD crashes and/or potential battery issues which can corrupting files (all or some)). An upcoming optional firmware update will allow you to use USB mass storage support built into most OS (ie no drivers for music upload and you can use the device as a HDD if you have extra space) but changes the filesystem to FAT like most of the other players so you loose some advantages. You can still use the Rio Karma as a portable HDD with the journal file system, but you have to use their Rio Taxi application (I can't recall, but I think there might be a built in java version if you use the ethernet webserver functionality - I only use my player as a music device).

User support is excellent with the Rio Karma - there is frequent firmware updates that add additional functionality for free, direct public support from employees at http://www.riovolution.com/ 's forums.

As far as lacking - the Rio Karma lacks a big selection of aftermarket accessories. Its a pure audio playback device - no silly games or other functionality you probably won't really use and that your cell phone doesn't already do. It lacks 20% of the weight of the iPod and doesn't look like a girl's makeup box.

Whatever player you get, check into one of those two-year protection plans from Best Buy or Mack Camera for around $40 cause if you drop the player a couple of times, etc... it might break and you'll be SOL.

There are at least two other people who might be able to chime in about their Rio Karma's - narlus has one and so does derek p.

Cost - $222.22 is the current low price. iPod 3G 20GB is $363.81(promo) $372 (non-promo) is the current low price.

syadasti · Jul 5, 2004

As far as user inferface goes, its very easy - I use mine in the car while driving, set on the random playback mode for my entire collection and I can easily use the joystick without looking at it to change between songs or the scrollwheel to advance forward in the song.

Here is a listing of the options (which have been updated several times, this is from November 2003):

The Karma's menu system is so intuitive and nice looking that it doesn't even seem to be as deep as it is. The most important options are right up front, with lesser used options buried. When I run through the menu system you might be overwhelmed and disbelieve me when I say it's easy to use. For this reason I have included three shots of the menu in action to give you an idea of the GUI. Check it:

Play Music:
Artist: Alphabetical listing with letters running down the left side

Album: Alphabetical listing with letters running down the left side

Track: Alphabetical listing with letters running down the left side

Playlist: Alphabetical listing of all lists

Rio DJ:
Entertain Me!: Generates playlist from most frequently played music. Mix can last 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 1, 2, 3, 4, 8 hours, or all music.

Play All: Play everything and automatically sort by album, artist, genre, or year.

Top Tunes: Play the most frequently played tracks. You can choose from the top 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 100, or 250 songs.

New Music: Play the most recently imported tracks. Choose from music imported in the last 1 day, 3 days, 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, 6 months, or 1 year.

Memory Lane: Play tracks that haven't been played in a while. Choose from music not played in the last 1 day, 3 days, 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, 6 months, or 1 year.

Sounds Of…: Play tracks from the 1940's, 1950's, 1960's, 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, or newer than 2000

Forgotten Gems: Play old favorites that haven't been played in the last 1 day, 3 days, 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, 6 months, or 1 year.

Déjà Vu: Play tracks that have been played in the last 1 day, 3 days, 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, 6 months, or 1 year.

Random Mix: Generate a random list lasting 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 1, 2, 3, 4, 8 hours, or all music.

Genre: Alphabetical listing with letters running down the left side

Year: Numerical listing of album years

Equalizer:
Bass and Treble: Adjust bass and treble by +/-6dB OR five-band parametric

Presets: EQ Off, Rock, Pop, Jazz, Classical, Trance

EQ Mode: Choose between bass and treble or five-band parametric

Special: Auto Gain Control (off, high, medium, or low) and Stereo Separation (off or all tracks)

Organize:
My Playlists: Create, Edit, Delete, or Rename

Delete Content: Delete by album, artist, track, or everything
Bookmarks:
Set: Make and name a bookmark

Settings:
Playback: Shuffle (on or off), Repeat (all, track, A-B, or off), and Cross Fade (1, 2, or 3 seconds or off)

Play Screen: Current View (VU meters, track progress, or profile (wave model), Timer Direction (up or down), and Timer Mode (all tracks or single track)

Power: Auto standby after 2, 5, 15, or 30 minutes or never

Display: Backlight (always off, 1, 2, 5, or 10 seconds, or always on) and Contrast

Resume: Track to resume (current or first) and Position within track (current or start)

Time and Date: Set time, set date, and format

Network: DHCP (automatic or manual), Current Lease (shows IP, MAC, Mask, Gateway, Expiration, etc.), and Password

Orientation: Right or left handed

Audible Prompts: of or on, with volume control

Menu Button: Single press equals main menu, play music, Rio DJ, artist, album, track, or playlist. Press and hold equals main menu, play music, Rio DJ, artist, album, track, or playlist.

Features:
Rio Taxi: For moving non-music Files on board and delete files

Stopwatch

Web Interface
About Track:
Title, artist, album, genre, year, track number, duration, comment, codec, bit rate, PCM format, file size, date loaded, times played, last played, and autosynced (crazy, right?)

About Rio Karma:
Firmware version, disc size, disc space, and number of tracks

Silver · Jul 5, 2004

No AAC support on the Karma though...

If they add that, I think I'll get one (especially when the 40 gig comes out.)

I'm lazy and like iTunes...stick the CD in, everything rips automagically. No more futzing around with EAC and an encoder, and then tagging stuff.

syadasti · Jul 5, 2004

Silver said:
No AAC support on the Karma though...

If they add that, I think I'll get one (especially when the 40 gig comes out.)

I'm lazy and like iTunes...stick the CD in, everything rips automagically. No more futzing around with EAC and an encoder, and then tagging stuff.

AAC - who needs a format like that - either stick with mp3 for compatibility or go for the gold (ogg, FLAC, etc...)

Ripping "automagically" was a possiblity for years before iTunes was released - Musicmatch did that - I bought it in the late 90s and they give free lifetime upgrades.

If you want an easy to use "automagic" ripper, just use Easy CD-DA Extractor or similiar application...

AllofMP3 is better than iTunes, tons of encoding options, and much cheaper

syadasti · Jul 5, 2004

spookymilk said:
Rio Karma seems pretty rad, what accesories does it come with? I know about the dock, but is there a carrying case? Also, how does it stack up against the iRiver cause I've heard that the iRiver has some great reviews too (It always seems every review site has a bias though, so real reviews are getting few and far between )

Player, dock, earbuds, protective cloth bag, and CD I think?

MindKnob and other companies make a few accessories for Karma - check http://www.riovolution.com/

Silver · Jul 5, 2004

syadasti said:
AAC - who needs a format like that - either stick with mp3 for compatibility or go for the gold (ogg, FLAC, etc...)

Ripping "automagically" was a possiblity for years before iTunes was released - Musicmatch did that - I bought it in the late 90s and they give free lifetime upgrades.

If you want an easy to use "automagic" ripper, just use Easy CD-DA Extractor or similiar application...

AllofMP3 is better than iTunes, tons of encoding options, and much cheaper

Actually, right after I posted that, I did a little quality testing, and I think I'm going back to LAME alt-preset-standard. Looks like I have a few cd's to re-rip.

Can't use .ogg, my iPod won't play it, and I don't have the ears to need FLAC (or the hard drive space, I know hard drives are cheap...but still.)

Still, iTunes works pretty damn slick for someone who happens to be a little computer confused.

syadasti · Jul 5, 2004

Silver said:
Actually, right after I posted that, I did a little quality testing, and I think I'm going back to LAME alt-preset-standard. Looks like I have a few cd's to re-rip.

Can't use .ogg, my iPod won't play it, and I don't have the ears to need FLAC (or the hard drive space, I know hard drives are cheap...but still.)

Still, iTunes works pretty damn slick for someone who happens to be a little computer confused.

I put dbPowerAmp on my sister's computer and she's had luck with that - I think this was written before it had a CD DB lookup, cause I am pretty sure it has that now. I was just leafing through little notes I have on my computer and found this post from someone:

I went through this same kind of review process about a month back as I was deciding what to use to rip my whole library to digital.

EAC is a nice program and gets props from the "command line crowd", but I found it too limited ofr my purposes. It doesn't support enough formats, doesn't directly support FLAC (which was enough of a reason to strike it from my list), and doesn't have lots of options for file formatting, archiving, directory systems, etc.

dbPowerAmp was waaaay too limited for my purposes. I needed a program that could handle all the ripping, conversion, and cd making needs i might have. dbPowerAmp is like tyhis little interface for ripping music, and it doesn't have freedb support which sucked.

Easy CD-DA Extractor won for me hands down. Not only does it do EVERYTHING and support just about every imaginable format, but it includes robust conversion software, can make CDs from albums in my jukebox, etc. It has fully integrated freedb support, rips music perfectly, and just has all sorts of management settings and options.

For ripping and conversion it supports MP3, Windows Media Audio 8 and 9, Ogg Vorbis, MP4, M4A, AAC, FLAC, VQF, WAV, AIFF, Monkey's Audio, and has ID3v1 and v2 support, etc.

I used it to rip all my music to Flac at compression level 8 and all tracks came out perfectly on my 275+ CDs. I then set up a laptop to access the machine I use as a jukebox over my network, loaded the files into the converters queue from the browse interface, and left it to convert all my music to OGG VBR Level 6 (192kbps) for use on my Karma.

Anyway I recommend going with Easy CDDA. There's a reason it is easily the most downloaded ripping/conversion program on all the software download repositories. Some people had bad experiences with CDDA in the past, but in general I've found they were refering to really old versions. Just get 6.2 or, if you want the newest version, download the 6.5 beta from http://www.poikosoft.com directly.

i have used both ECDDA and EAC and im my opinion both have thier strengths. EAC is bound to attract alot of the command line crowd and it supports almost all the codec and allows you to use variations of the codecs, ex. garf's tuned vorbis. However i like ECDDA for one reason, namely simplicity, just drop your cd in select the codec and bitrate/quality and its off. Both of them support tagging and such, but one feature that i like that EAC doesn't have is the ability to organize your mp3's into folders. For example say you drop in the cd Radiohead - Hail to the thief. I like it to organize my tracks in the following format. C:\MP3\Radiohead\Hail to the Thief\Radiohead - Wolf at the door.mp3, how ever i have not been able to find such a feature in EAC please correct me if i am wrong. But of the two i would say it is a pretty close match just depends on what feature you require. ex. command line, using garfs tuned vorbis, folder creation on mp3 rip, simplicity. Both of the programs check for errors but i must say i think eac does a better job, but im not exactly sure.

A helpful tidbit about EAC

From the EAC FAQ:

Q: I would like to let EAC automatically create directories named from artist or album name. Is this possible somehow?

A: You can set this in the filename option. If you use the '\' character, EAC will create all these subdirectories. For example %a\%n - %t
But you may not specify an absolute path like c:\%a\%n nor \%a\%t
For more information read the tooltip of this option.

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syadasti · Jul 5, 2004

Those who still don't think Allofmp3 is legit:

http://www.museekster.com/allofmp3info.htm (links to reviews from international press including G4TechTV(US), The Register(UK), Smh(AU), C't(DE), and Consumers' Organization(NL).)

C't and Consumers' Organization both ranked AllofMP3 as the best online music service on the Internet. C't is one of the best quality computer magazine publications in the business. You might want to try Babelfish.

Keep in mind there is NO DRM and you can choose which format and quality want you. Another good thing about Allofmp3 - no software needed - it works with almost any OS that has a browser

Its music distribution as it should be - no worthless middleman organization that steals all the money and has no place in the modern world but to make themselves richer.

syadasti · Jul 5, 2004

Some good reading - Silver isn't the only person realizing iTunes sounds like crap:

The New York Times

July 4, 2004
DIGITAL DOMAIN
From a High-Tech System, Low-Fi Music
By RANDALL STROSS

THE human genome must contain instructions that make building personal music collections a primal biological need. If you find yourself guiltily spending $2,000 a week at the iTunes Music Store from Apple Computer, you're not alone, historically speaking. In inflation-adjusted dollars, that's what the early adopter in 1890 was spending - yes, weekly - on phonograph records.

Today, Apple's ingenious combination of the iPod, a marvel of design, and its iTunes store makes collecting and playing music ridiculously easy, impeccably legal and impossible to resist.

Love the iPod, but don't jump too hastily to fill it with thousands of dollars of iTunes. The tracks are not carbon copies of the CD originals, but compressed versions. The smaller files are handy for speedy downloads, space-saving for storage and perfectly serviceable for listening through ear buds when riding on the subway. Not what you will want, however, when your desktop computer becomes the home jukebox and wirelessly sends these simulacra to the entertainment center in the living room.

Consumers find downloading instantly gratifying, but the company uses an extreme form of compression that takes a sample of the sound at intervals. The less information collected, the smaller the resulting file size - and the greater the loss of fidelity to the original. Apple has elected to use a compression standard that, to put the best face on it, creates an awfully small file.

This music lite is a response to the data transfer problems entailed in downloading the music that resides on anyone's collection of CD's. With about 10 megabytes needed to store one minute of music, albums eat up space quickly on a hard drive. Credit Apple for Step One: persuading the major music labels to make individual tracks available inexpensively, à la carte. By buying only the hit tracks and ignoring the rest of the album, storage needs drop by 90 percent.

Apple has yet to put into effect the second part of the ideal solution: distributing music that is compressed only temporarily, a process called lossless data compression. Before saving a digital song to the hard drive, software can shrink it in size by 50 percent or so just by using a shorthand notation that takes up a little less space for any repetitive patterns in the 0's and 1's. When the song is played, the software has all the information that it needs to restore it perfectly. With this, "you'll get the full quality of uncompressed CD audio using about half the storage space." The phrasing is from Apple's own Web site, but, unfortunately, the company does not offer "true CD audio," as it calls this, when you download music from the iTunes Music Store. It is available only when you traipse to the mall, buy the CD, and return home to copy it to your home computer with Apple software.

The company offers no explanation why "lossless" storage is desirable for tracks received through one source but not the other.

Customers are led to believe that they are getting a CD in all respects except the trouble of going to the mall. The iTunes store does not warn about the permanence of its method of compression; once freeze-dried, there is no way to reconstitute the music into CD quality for playing through a good stereo.

Ah, for simpler times, when we never had reason to look up the bit rate at which music is digitally sampled for CD's: 1,378 kilobits per second. The bit rate for iTunes, 128, is so low that when played side by side against the original, the difference is audible not only to audio enthusiasts, but also to mortals with ordinary hearing. Wes Phillips, contributing editor at Stereophile, says "128 is like an eight-track," and he describes the combination of iPod and iTunes as "buying a 21st-century device to live in the 1970's."

Defending the company's decision to encode its music at the low end of the bit rate range, an Apple spokesman, Derick Mains, says 128 provides good sound quality, "especially when used in iPods."

"The majority of people," Mr. Mains said, "have absolutely no idea what a bit rate is," reasoning that if Apple offered music encoded at a bit rate higher than 128, customers would select it without realizing that it would fill up their hard drive and portable player quickly. Here, as anywhere, however, it's difficult to argue that offering customers a choice is hurtful.

Apple's online rivals have an elastic vocabulary to describe the quality of their downloads. The Web site for Wal-Mart Stores, for example, defines the "CD quality" of its online offerings as being "of similar quality as those you would get on a physical CD." That sounds good, until you read that they are only available permanently compressed at 128. On one Web page, Musicmatch declares "CD quality" as encoding at 128, and, on another, mentions that its downloads are encoded at 160.

AT RealRhapsody, you can directly compare apples to Apple, as the two companies use the same software standard for compression, and Rhapsody beats Apple hands down: 192 to 128. But Rhapsody's higher quality is available only for à la carte downloads, and those cannot be played on the Apple iPod. Rhapsody's strategy, however, is not to take on Apple's downloads head to head. It promotes an all-you-can-eat concept, allowing subscribers to hear an unlimited number of tracks for a low monthly fee. The subscription, however, is for unlimited listening through streamed audio, a format for listening without saving. This form of music, however, cannot be moved to the iPod, either, and to ensure an uninterrupted stream, it is squeezed to 128.

Richard Wolpert, chief strategy officer of RealNetworks Inc., the parent of RealRhapsody, takes aim at Apple when he muses that customers will be unhappy when they decide that they want to own music encoded at 320, not at 128. Far better, he argued, to abandon the notion of "owning" songs, because the concept condemns users to endless purchases. "How many times do you want to own your music?" he asked. "I own my music as eight-tracks, I own my music as albums, I own my music as cassettes, I own my music as CD's."

With a subscription service like RealRhapsody, one saves personal tastes in the form of playlists that replace actual music collections, providing access to favorites no matter what storage format comes out "in the next 5 or 10 or 20 years," Mr. Wolpert said.

Buying the same music over and over is painful, but the same argument turns against subscription services: Who wants to lease instead of own music through endless monthly payments? Even if owning digital music confers restricted rights, it still meets the biological imperative to collect music.

Yes, we should be looking out 5 years, or even 50 years, and that's why, when we are building collections from scratch today, we should have the option to collect with true CD quality.

When speaking of Apple, it's heretical to suggest a problem with quality. The company's aura of technical leadership was enhanced with the recent announcement that BMW would offer a built-in adapter expressly for the iPod. But Jon Iverson, online editor at Stereophile.com, says compressed iTunes in the Beamer means "audio quality that's third rate, wrapped in the latest automotive technology - that's brilliant marketing."

Steven P. Jobs, the chief executive of Apple, has long held that inferior quality will eventually manifest itself. A number of years ago, he recalled that when he was growing up, a neighbor across the street had tried to make a Volkswagen Bug into a Porsche through unstinting investments in accessories. When the neighbor was done, however, Mr. Jobs said, "he did not have a Porsche; he had a loud, ugly VW."

Randall Stross is a historian and author based in Silicon Valley. E-mail:ddomain@nytimes.com

Silver · Jul 6, 2004

Actually, I've never bought music through iTunes...I was just using it to rip and encode. Even then, I did it at a higher bit rate than the default 128.

syadasti · Jul 6, 2004

spookymilk said:
I read that article but I think I have the stupides question ever...are you only allowed to use 128 kb/s Bit Rate on the iPod?

No - but that product manager from Apple sure did make an arse of himself

syadasti · Jul 6, 2004

spookymilk said:
yeah. the way he was talking about 128 being so good made me think that 128 was the only supported bit rate, if that was so, I would've crossed the iPod off right then and there. I hate 128, I try to get at least 192, but if 128 is all there's available, then I get stuck with it. The only war I'm having with the iPod is it's battery life, everything else is great IMO

Also lack of off mode, 20% extra weight, less format support/less open standards, no gapless playback, slower transfer rate (400 vs 480 Mb/s), cost about $150 more, lower sound quality, feminine design/styling, no 5-band EQ, weaker amp, less features, and no herd mentality included

syadasti · Jul 7, 2004

spookymilk said:
this thread is getting useless now, either suggest a Mp3 and why or get out I"m starting to lean towards the iHP or Karma now, although neither have "hard" cases for snowboarding or somethin like that

Hard Drive(HDD) players (Karma, iPod, iHP-120, etc...) are no good for sports w/possibility of hard impact - it doesn't matter if the shell is hard or not - the HDD is delicate and shock is enough to break it. Some of the players have the more shock resistance Cornice and Toshiba mini HDDs - Rio Nitrus, Creative Muvo2, and the iPod mini, but flash players for the most part are the best bet for abuse...

syadasti · Jul 8, 2004

spookymilk said:
well, example is the "iArmour" that's an aluminum case that keeps the iPod suspended inside...they give some warrenty on it too. Any suggestions...the iPod's sound seems to be dismal too...the iRIver apparently has good sound, the one at the store was pretty damn small too (the Creative Zen Xtra is a monster)

It isn't the shell to be worried about itself - its the HDD mechanism being broken from sudden movements - the new IBM Thinkpads have an active protection utility that uses sensors to park the HDD head in anticipation of a potentially damaging shock to the HDD - when parked the shock resistance is MUCH MUCH higher than when reading/writing. Until they can figure out a way to implement that in standard HDDs based players, the hard shell can only do so much unless it is very padded in which case the small size of the player would be pointless cause the case would make it bigger than any other mp3 HDD player on the market.

Anyhow, you either by a standard HDD based player like a Rio Karma, Apple iPod, or Creative Zen Touch and don't use it while playing sports or you buy a mini HDD based player like a Creative Muvo2, Rio Nitrus, or iPod Mini (though you are limited to 4GB until arial density improvements come along). If you fall alot - skip HDD based players completely and buy a flash based player which isn't sensitive to shock at all (as long as you don't crush it) or a mini-disc (cheaper, so its not a huge deal if you break it)...

syadasti · Jul 8, 2004

HDDs don't usually fail from a physical hit directly on the HDD themselves - their heads misalign/malfunction/break from abrupt changes in G forces while reading/writing. A sudden change in motion will cause that and the case won't do much to protect from that...

I've seen that case before and they hint it doesn't offer much true protection against drops/falls with their lack of confidence in the foam protection with their warning in the literature:

Protective foam interior.
The open-cell EVA foam interior also acts as a cushion, offering extra protection against the accidental (and highly discouraged!) dropping of your iPod.

Besides that, these cases make the unit much bigger and add extra weight to a portable product whose purpose is to be small and lightweight.

Best option is to buy a 2 year product protection plan from Best Buy or something similiar for $40...

The Rio Karma has excellent playlist options and it can read ones your create on your computer (M3U) or it has tons of options for creating them on the player itself

PC Generated M3U playlists

Any playlists you want RMM to recognize and transfer to your player must be in the root directory of your library source. For example, if the source directory for your music library (the folder that RMM scans) is "…/My Music," your playlists should be directly in your "My Music" folder (not ".../My Music/Artist/Album...").

Rio Karma Generated Playlists

Rio DJ:
Entertain Me!: Generates playlist from most frequently played music. Mix can last 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 1, 2, 3, 4, 8 hours, or all music.

Play All: Play everything and automatically sort by album, artist, genre, or year.

Top Tunes: Play the most frequently played tracks. You can choose from the top 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 100, or 250 songs.

New Music: Play the most recently imported tracks. Choose from music imported in the last 1 day, 3 days, 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, 6 months, or 1 year.

Memory Lane: Play tracks that haven't been played in a while. Choose from music not played in the last 1 day, 3 days, 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, 6 months, or 1 year.

Sounds Of…: Play tracks from the 1940's, 1950's, 1960's, 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, or newer than 2000

Forgotten Gems: Play old favorites that haven't been played in the last 1 day, 3 days, 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, 6 months, or 1 year.

Déjà Vu: Play tracks that have been played in the last 1 day, 3 days, 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, 6 months, or 1 year.

Random Mix: Generate a random list lasting 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 1, 2, 3, 4, 8 hours, or all music.

Genre: Alphabetical listing with letters running down the left side

Year: Numerical listing of album years

syadasti · Jul 8, 2004

spookymilk said:
Does the iPod have "real" playlists, ones that don't delete themselves everytime you shut it off? Also, how does the Rio Karam compare to the iRiver iHP-120? They had an iRiver at Future Shop (Canadian Best Buy or Circuit City) and they're pretty damn small but it wasn't charged so I couldn't play around with the menu....anyone know much about the iRiver?

Considering the iPod never turns off, only goes to sleep, I assume the playlist created on the fly won't be deleted unless you discharge your battery completely.

I have not used the iRiver iHP-120, only their iGP 1.5GB player so I have no idea. DAP rates the iHP-120 below the Karma, Zen, and iPod players for reference. I personally think the iHP is overpriced.

syadasti · Jul 9, 2004

spookymilk said:
Well here, the iRiver is 500, iPod is 500-550 or so + $25 "Blank media" fee. From reviews, it seems the iRiver and Karma have equal sound qualities with the Karma possibly having a slight edge. The menus are relatively easy to use...iRiver has a better battery life (1 hour extra) both run USB 2.0 and the iRiver has a remote so it's quite the toss-up....I think IGN (http://gear.ign.com/audio ) has the most well balanced reviews either that or CNET, IMO. If you can tell me the plus and negatives of the iPod and Karma from your experience, that'd be cool

You keep on asking questions I've already answered in this thread :blah:

Please read through the whole thread and make up your mind - thanks...

syadasti · Jul 16, 2004

spookymilk said:
well. I ordered a Karma off Newegg.com I can't wait!!! I was looking at prices and the Karma was 245 US (350 CDN with tax and shipping) and the cheapest iPod was like 400 US! So I'm saving ALOT of money and probably getting a better player to boot. One question, how good is the sound quality with say a 192 kb/s Mp3 cranked with good headphones?

Should be good - use a good encoder like LAME with the proper presets. 192 ogg would be a good option too. Don't forget you have a 5 band equalizer, so you'll be able to tweak the sound exactly to your liking

20 GB iPod vs. iRiver iHP-120

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