[Changleen]

Yes yes, we all know it's been coming, and now here it is. It doesn't really mean much in reality but it's an important psycho-ma-logical thinger.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. military death toll in the 2 1/2 year Iraq war reached the milestone of 2,000 on Tuesday with the announcement by the Pentagon of a U.S. soldier who died at a hospital in Texas over the weekend.

The Pentagon said Staff Sgt. George Alexander Jr., 34, of Killeen, Texas, died at Brooke Army Medical Centre in San Antonio, Texas, last Saturday of injuries sustained on October 17 in Samarra, Iraq, when a roadside bomb planted by insurgents detonated near his Bradley Fighting Vehicle.

In the Iraq war, which began in March 2003, more than 15,000 U.S. troops also have been wounded in action.

Slight Karma thing that the 2000th death was in Texas...

So, more importantly will this do anything to the 'bring 'em home movement?'

 

[ohio]

So, more importantly will this do anything to the 'bring 'em home movement?'

I hope not. We need to truly have the place dialed before we withdraw.

I hope it does something for the "I am nauseated by our leadership" movement."

 

[Changleen]

I agree that leaving the place in a mess would be a bad bad thing, but I really can't see a way that it's going to come right in the next few years even. The insurgency is getting real smart too - I don't know if you saw the other day, they've now managed to completly halt oil exports by destroying the pipelines out of town. If anything Bush won't leave 'till the oil is secure.

I agree with your second hope.

 

[jimmydean]

I wish it would change something, but I doubt it will. As for leaving the place dialed in, that will NEVER happen as long as we are there. They didn't want us there, they don't want us there, and they will only ever be happy once we've left.

The fact remains that as long as we are there, nothing will change. Cut and run is all that will happen, now or later, the result will be the same.

 

[reflux]

So, more importantly will this do anything to the 'bring 'em home movement?'

Yes, the GOP will be sure to bring troops home on a temporary basis come the next Presidential election year. :mumble:

 

[kidwoo]

I know they make a big deal of keeping it hidden but has anyone ever seen any numbers on dead contractors?

 

[Changleen]

I've read some pretty large numbers being banded about on 'less reputable' sites - 15,000, 20,000. I dunno. That seems like a lot to me.

 

[Old_Dude]

A few months ago I found - what I thought - was a great article on the Iraq war. Title is "A Tale of Two Wars In Baghdad, I Hear Echoes of Saigon in '67"
By Lewis M. Simons.

If anyone wants a copy I'll post it here.

I hate to admit this, but at the outset, I actually supported the Iraq invasion. I really believed there were WMD's, that it would be a clean sweep & blah, blah, blah. I don't wanna start a riot, but I strongly dislike the current administration - and that's really putting it mildly.

What I can't get out of my head - for decades, there has been common knowledge that satelites could read newspaper headlines from their orbit in space. How then, with today's technology, could anyone "in authority" actually, really believe there were WMD's in the first place, especially given our high-tech surveilance tools? I feel very foolish for belieing the lies - my wife never bought the story, but she's too nice to wag her "I told you so" finger at me, or anyone else.

Of course, being an American, I hate the fact that so many of our troops have died, but I also hate the fact that so many more innocent Iraqi citizens have died. I also have a link to the body count - even conservative estimates will make your head spin with this insane mess. I'll post it if there's any interest.

Does anyone really have any valid idea how this thing is going to end? Short term - long term?

From an international point of view, it's all just an embarassing and totally unfortunate mess (because it should've never happened & blah, blah, blah). I can understand why many foreign people hate "w" but please, please don't hate all Americans!

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

I've read some pretty large numbers being banded about on 'less reputable' sites - 15,000, 20,000. I dunno. That seems like a lot to me.

yeah, it was on the news here lately..
a company (3d global security i think) was hiring something like 1500 or 2500 peruvian retired soldiers for "security positions" in iraq.. and they said on the news there were many more being hired in colombia, chile, etc, etc.. and all the issues around that, how they are "not combatants" nor specifically defined by geneva conventions, and etc, etc, etc....

all for .... 33, (HELL YEAH; THIRTY THREE BUCKS) per day...
man.. that really really sucks.... i know they are mercenaries and crap, man, but i dont know whats worse... being a mercenary, or taking advantage of people so poor, they are willing to risk their lives for 33 bucks a day....

 

[Changleen]

I've read some pretty large numbers being banded about on 'less reputable' sites - 15,000, 20,000. I dunno. That seems like a lot to me.

LA Times recons 255. Seems a bit more grounded.

 

[Changleen]

yeah, it was on the news here lately..
a company (3d global security i think) was hiring something like 1500 or 2500 peruvian retired soldiers for "security positions" in iraq.. and they said on the news there were many more being hired in colombia, chile, etc, etc.. and all the issues around that, how they are "not combatants" nor specifically defined by geneva conventions, and etc, etc, etc....

all for .... 33, (HELL YEAH; THIRTY THREE BUCKS) per day...
man.. that really really sucks.... i know they are mercenaries and crap, man, but i dont know whats worse... being a mercenary, or taking advantage of people so poor, they are willing to risk their lives for 33 bucks a day....

Yeah, so I was just reading around this - Guess who the parent company organising most of this 3rd world labour is? Shocker of all shockers - Haliburton. Most of the actual employment is done by KBR who are a direct subsidiary of the big evil H, and they in turn subcontract out to companies all over the place.

KBR is the largest employer of third-country nationals, with about 25,000 workers in Iraq, typically through Middle Eastern subcontractors.

There also seems to be some issues around (non)payment of various benefits that these workers had been promised, espeacilly in the case of their deaths.

 

[ghostrider]

The bullsh!t was painfully obvious right from when W first started talking about Iraq:

http://www.halliburton.com/about/index.jsp

About Halliburton
Founded in 1919, Halliburton is one of the world's largest providers of products and services to the oil and gas industries. The Company adds value through the entire lifecycle of oil and gas reservoirs and provides and integrates products and services, starting with exploration and development, moving through production, operations, maintenance, conversion and refining, to infrastructure and abandonment.

Edit: Dangit, Changleen beat me to it.

 

[kinghami3]

LA Times recons 255. Seems a bit more grounded.

Yeah. I keep driving past this uber-liberal place who's sign reads "Iraq: 100,000 civilians dead and counting." I've been too lazy to look up the actual figures, but it seems just a little far-fetched to me, though I'm sure they're pretty high.

 

[enkidu]

A few months ago I found - what I thought - was a great article on the Iraq war. Title is "A Tale of Two Wars In Baghdad, I Hear Echoes of Saigon in '67"
By Lewis M. Simons.

If anyone wants a copy I'll post it here. . . I'll post it if there's any interest.

Yes, I'm interested in it. Please do post it.

 

[Changleen]

Yeah. I keep driving past this uber-liberal place who's sign reads "Iraq: 100,000 civilians dead and counting." I've been too lazy to look up the actual figures, but it seems just a little far-fetched to me, though I'm sure they're pretty high.

Actually, In terms of all deaths in Iraq related to the War, that figure is probably fairly acurate. The website which clocks combat related civilian deaths properly recorded via Iraqi hospitals and morgues is up to nearly 20,000 now, and there are an unknown number of deaths during the bombings of cities like Falluja in which entire blocks were turned to ashes. Significant parts of Falluja were literally flattened, and your death isn't recorded if your entire family is dead alongside you and there's no-one to report your death or take your pulped remains to a morgue.

I beleive the 100,000 figure was arrived at by a Arabic journalist team who some time ago now surveyed the living in Iraq, asking how many deaths they knew of in their area and extrapolating the results across the major combat areas.

 

[MudGrrl]

Yes, I'm interested in it. Please do post it.

Linky...Tale of Two Wars

What would "winning" in Iraq mean, anyway? A democratic society that's free to elect an anti-American, pro-Iranian, fundamentalist Islamic government? A land of gushing oil wells feeding international oil company profits at U.S. taxpayers' expense? Shiites, Kurds and Sunnis joining hands to end terrorism around the world? Since, in my judgment, we were wrong to go in, I'm afraid there's no good way to get out.

Americans didn't know what "winning" meant in Vietnam, either. Most didn't understand the enemy, its objectives or the lengths to which it was prepared to go to attain them. We had a fuzzy notion of communist "world domination," and the "domino theory" and no realization that what the Vietnamese wanted, south and north, was independence. They didn't want to take over Southeast Asia. They didn't want to invade Los Angeles. They wanted to run their own country. They wanted us out.

 

[Trond]

I can understand why many foreign people hate "w" but please, please don't hate all Americans!

It's so easy to forget that he doesn't represent the majority. I have three wonderful years behind me in the states and have lots of good friends from that time that I respect and admire. W has done a good job of trying to erase that, so has most of the European press by focusing on him and his less-than-tactful foreign affairs. It doesn't help that he comes off as a religious freak (God told me to save the world - type) and has a smirk that you'd never trust.

Speaking to my Am-friends and reading here helps so much. I sometimes catch myself thinking d*mn Americans when I should be thinking d*mn administration.

 

[Echo]

I like how no matter what's going on over there, the military says they are "bracing for an increase in insurgent attacks". They say it like, well once this election is over, the insurgents will realize they lost. Oh wait, once the constitution is drafted, the insurgents will realize they lost. Oh wait, once the constitution draft passes, the insurgents will realize they lost. Oh wait, once the... you get the idea

 

[McGRP01]

2001 and rising....

 

[kinghami3]

I just found out my parents are going to go to a demonstration in response to this in Bellingham. I'm actually not embarrassed to be related to them for once.

 

[N8 v2.0]

I wonder what the body count in Chicago is over the last 3 years....???

Oh wait....

For 2004
The city finished 2003 with 599 homicides, police said Thursday. That was down from 648 a year earlier and the first time since 1967 that the total dipped below 600.

With the final hours of 2002 ticking away, Chicago had 645 homicides--down 20 from 2001 when the city led the nation.

Let's see.... 599+648+645 = 1893

Where's the protestors?

 

[N8 v2.0]

Yeah. I keep driving past this uber-liberal place who's sign reads "Iraq: 100,000 civilians dead and counting." I've been too lazy to look up the actual figures, but it seems just a little far-fetched to me, though I'm sure they're pretty high.

It's between 26,000 and 30,000... roughly 70% of the number of Americans killed in motor vehicle accidents in a single year.

Source: http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

 

[fluff]

It's between 26,000 and 30,000... roughly 70% of the number of Americans killed in motor vehicle accidents in a single year.

Source: http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

Hell, let's start a war on automobiles. Should we invade Detroit, or Japan?

 

[Echo]

Start with Detroit. Maybe they'll get Kid Rock by accident.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Hell, let's start a war on automobiles. Should we invade Detroit, or Japan?

How about a war on drunk drivers?

During 2003, 17,013 people in the U.S. died in alcohol-related motor vehicle crashes, representing 40% of all traffic-related deaths...

And in 1982 that number was 26,173, about the number of dead Iraqis.

Think about that the next time you liberals get drunk and stoned and drive home....

 

[MMike]

Hell, let's start a war on automobiles. Should we invade Detroit, or Japan?

dUH.... JAPAN of course.... curse their little yellow hides...

 

[ghostrider]

Hell, let's start a war on automobiles. Should we invade Detroit, or Japan?

Bush will probably declare war on Mother Nature first. Damn hurricanes and earthquakes are worse than terrorists. Mother Nature must be stopped!!!!

 

[Echo]

N8 are you really serious? You're comparing auto accidents to bombing villages.

On the other hand, you're probably onto something when you compare the illegal and criminal act of murder to what's going on in Iraq.

 

[N8 v2.0]

N8 are you really serious? You're comparing auto accidents to bombing villages.

On the other hand, you're probably onto something when you compare the illegal and criminal act of murder to what's going on in Iraq.

Just providing some comparisons to the numbers... I don't see any vocal anti-killing protestors in Shy Town.... where the murder rate is high because of drugs mostly...

 

[fluff]

Just providing some comparisons to the numbers... I don't see any vocal anti-killing protestors in Shy Town.... where the murder rate is high because of drugs mostly...

Hey now you're talking - War On Drugs!

What? We did? Already? Oh, how's it going?

That well huh?

 

[Slugman]

I wonder what the body count in Chicago is over the last 3 years....???

Oh wait....




Let's see.... 599+648+645 = 1893

Where's the protestors?

Actually:
2003 - 599 homicides
2004 - 445 homicides
And it will be even fewer this year than last year… 7.1% drop = 414 this year
http://www.ccchronicle.com/back_new/2004_fall/2005-01-18/citybeat.php?id=589

So by the end of the year there will be about 1500 in Chicago over the last 3 years…

What do you think the number will be in Iraq?

And What was your point?

It's between 26,000 and 30,000... roughly 70% of the number of Americans killed in motor vehicle accidents in a single year.

Source: http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

Why don't you give us those numbers based on a percentage of he population... unless you really thing Iraq and the US are teh same size.

 

[fluff]

How about a war on drunk drivers?

Yup. String 'em up.

Think about that the next time you liberals get drunk and stoned

That's actually quite funny when you consider some of the problems that your hero's had over the years.

 

[jimmydean]

Look at the bright side, we only have about 10 more years before we are done there.

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,78957,00.html?ESRC=dod.nl

I hate reading stuff like that. It makes me ill. Here I thought we only had about 3 more years (when "W" leaves).

 

[Reactor]

It's between 26,000 and 30,000... roughly 70% of the number of Americans killed in motor vehicle accidents in a single year.

Source: http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

That number is highly debatable. There are some studies that show as much as 300,000 civilian death caused directly and indirectly (malnutrition, insurgents, bombs, lack of medical care et. al.).

 

[Inclag]

Just providing some comparisons to the numbers... I don't see any vocal anti-killing protestors in Shy Town.... where the murder rate is high because of drugs mostly...

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.

The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'.

Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.
We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,

How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,

'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.


Just comparing some numbers

 

[N8 v2.0]

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.

The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'.

Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.
We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,

How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,

'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.


Just comparing some numbers

:zzzzzzzzzzzzz:

 

[Changleen]

:zzzzzzzzzzzzz:

Thanks for that N8. Really.

 

[Inclag]

:zzzzzzzzzzzzz:

:witty:

 

[dante]

Yes yes, we all know it's been coming, and now here it is. It doesn't really mean much in reality but it's an important psycho-ma-logical thinger.

Slight Karma thing that the 2000th death was in Texas...

So, more importantly will this do anything to the 'bring 'em home movement?'

ya, too bad this "death" doesn't count according to the pentagon. only forces that actually die *in* Iraq are counted...

 

[kinghami3]

So N8, if we never started the war, and instead spent those many billions of dollars on things like automotive safety or air-conditioning for the poor in Chicago, what would you have to say to that?

What's worse is that all these arguments are evolving around numbers, not the sanctity of life. Intent has everything to do with this argument, and reflects the nature of the offender. Any death has tragedy involved, so why are we trying to justify causing more?