Quantcast

2000 Troops dead in Iraq

Discussion in 'Politics & World News' started by Changleen, Oct 25, 2005.

  1. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

    Rep/Likes:
    1 / 4
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    9,890
    Location:
    Hypernormality
    Yes yes, we all know it's been coming, and now here it is. It doesn't really mean much in reality but it's an important psycho-ma-logical thinger.

    Slight Karma thing that the 2000th death was in Texas...

    So, more importantly will this do anything to the 'bring 'em home movement?'
     

    Please register to disable this ad.

  2. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 4
    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2001
    Messages:
    6,657
    Location:
    SF, CA
    I hope not. We need to truly have the place dialed before we withdraw.

    I hope it does something for the "I am nauseated by our leadership" movement."
     
  3. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

    Rep/Likes:
    1 / 4
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    9,890
    Location:
    Hypernormality
    I agree that leaving the place in a mess would be a bad bad thing, but I really can't see a way that it's going to come right in the next few years even. The insurgency is getting real smart too - I don't know if you saw the other day, they've now managed to completly halt oil exports by destroying the pipelines out of town. If anything Bush won't leave 'till the oil is secure.

    I agree with your second hope.
     
  4. jimmydean

    jimmydean The Official Meat of Ridemonkey

    Rep/Likes:
    172 / 1,453
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2001
    Messages:
    28,945
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    I wish it would change something, but I doubt it will. As for leaving the place dialed in, that will NEVER happen as long as we are there. They didn't want us there, they don't want us there, and they will only ever be happy once we've left.

    The fact remains that as long as we are there, nothing will change. Cut and run is all that will happen, now or later, the result will be the same.
     
  5. reflux

    reflux Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    4 / 2
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2002
    Messages:
    4,624
    Location:
    G14 Classified
    Yes, the GOP will be sure to bring troops home on a temporary basis come the next Presidential election year. :mumble:
     
  6. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

    Rep/Likes:
    158 / 1,492
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2003
    Messages:
    21,683
    Location:
    In my pants
    I know they make a big deal of keeping it hidden but has anyone ever seen any numbers on dead contractors?
     
  7. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

    Rep/Likes:
    1 / 4
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    9,890
    Location:
    Hypernormality
    I've read some pretty large numbers being banded about on 'less reputable' sites - 15,000, 20,000. I dunno. That seems like a lot to me.
     
  8. Old_Dude

    Old_Dude Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    4 / 0
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2001
    Messages:
    474
    Location:
    ~40 min. from the closest trails
    A few months ago I found - what I thought - was a great article on the Iraq war. Title is "A Tale of Two Wars In Baghdad, I Hear Echoes of Saigon in '67"
    By Lewis M. Simons.

    If anyone wants a copy I'll post it here.

    I hate to admit this, but at the outset, I actually supported the Iraq invasion. I really believed there were WMD's, that it would be a clean sweep & blah, blah, blah. I don't wanna start a riot, but I strongly dislike the current administration - and that's really putting it mildly.

    What I can't get out of my head - for decades, there has been common knowledge that satelites could read newspaper headlines from their orbit in space. How then, with today's technology, could anyone "in authority" actually, really believe there were WMD's in the first place, especially given our high-tech surveilance tools? I feel very foolish for belieing the lies - my wife never bought the story, but she's too nice to wag her "I told you so" finger at me, or anyone else.

    Of course, being an American, I hate the fact that so many of our troops have died, but I also hate the fact that so many more innocent Iraqi citizens have died. I also have a link to the body count - even conservative estimates will make your head spin with this insane mess. I'll post it if there's any interest.

    Does anyone really have any valid idea how this thing is going to end? Short term - long term?

    From an international point of view, it's all just an embarassing and totally unfortunate mess (because it should've never happened & blah, blah, blah). I can understand why many foreign people hate "w" but please, please don't hate all Americans!
     
  9. ALEXIS_DH

    ALEXIS_DH Tirelessly Awesome

    Rep/Likes:
    18 / 103
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2003
    Messages:
    5,272
    Location:
    Lima, Peru, Peru

    yeah, it was on the news here lately..
    a company (3d global security i think) was hiring something like 1500 or 2500 peruvian retired soldiers for "security positions" in iraq.. and they said on the news there were many more being hired in colombia, chile, etc, etc.. and all the issues around that, how they are "not combatants" nor specifically defined by geneva conventions, and etc, etc, etc....

    all for .... 33, (HELL YEAH; THIRTY THREE BUCKS) per day...
    man.. that really really sucks.... i know they are mercenaries and crap, man, but i dont know whats worse... being a mercenary, or taking advantage of people so poor, they are willing to risk their lives for 33 bucks a day....
     
  10. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

    Rep/Likes:
    1 / 4
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    9,890
    Location:
    Hypernormality
    LA Times recons 255. Seems a bit more grounded.
     
  11. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

    Rep/Likes:
    1 / 4
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    9,890
    Location:
    Hypernormality
    Yeah, so I was just reading around this - Guess who the parent company organising most of this 3rd world labour is? Shocker of all shockers - Haliburton. Most of the actual employment is done by KBR who are a direct subsidiary of the big evil H, and they in turn subcontract out to companies all over the place.

    There also seems to be some issues around (non)payment of various benefits that these workers had been promised, espeacilly in the case of their deaths.
     
  12. ghostrider

    ghostrider 7034 miles, still no custom title

    Rep/Likes:
    5 / 1
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Messages:
    964
    Location:
    Shadows of Mt Boney, CA.
    The bullsh!t was painfully obvious right from when W first started talking about Iraq:

    http://www.halliburton.com/about/index.jsp

    About Halliburton
    Founded in 1919, Halliburton is one of the world's largest providers of products and services to the oil and gas industries. The Company adds value through the entire lifecycle of oil and gas reservoirs and provides and integrates products and services, starting with exploration and development, moving through production, operations, maintenance, conversion and refining, to infrastructure and abandonment.

    Edit: Dangit, Changleen beat me to it.
     
  13. kinghami3

    kinghami3 Future Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 0
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2004
    Messages:
    2,241
    Location:
    Ballard 4 life.
    Yeah. I keep driving past this uber-liberal place who's sign reads "Iraq: 100,000 civilians dead and counting." I've been too lazy to look up the actual figures, but it seems just a little far-fetched to me, though I'm sure they're pretty high.
     
  14. enkidu

    enkidu Guest

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / N/A
    Yes, I'm interested in it. Please do post it.
     
  15. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

    Rep/Likes:
    1 / 4
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    9,890
    Location:
    Hypernormality
    Actually, In terms of all deaths in Iraq related to the War, that figure is probably fairly acurate. The website which clocks combat related civilian deaths properly recorded via Iraqi hospitals and morgues is up to nearly 20,000 now, and there are an unknown number of deaths during the bombings of cities like Falluja in which entire blocks were turned to ashes. Significant parts of Falluja were literally flattened, and your death isn't recorded if your entire family is dead alongside you and there's no-one to report your death or take your pulped remains to a morgue.

    I beleive the 100,000 figure was arrived at by a Arabic journalist team who some time ago now surveyed the living in Iraq, asking how many deaths they knew of in their area and extrapolating the results across the major combat areas.
     
  16. MudGrrl

    MudGrrl AAAAH! Monkeys stole my math!

    Rep/Likes:
    7 / 0
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Messages:
    3,123
    Location:
    Boston....outside of it....
    Linky...Tale of Two Wars

    What would "winning" in Iraq mean, anyway? A democratic society that's free to elect an anti-American, pro-Iranian, fundamentalist Islamic government? A land of gushing oil wells feeding international oil company profits at U.S. taxpayers' expense? Shiites, Kurds and Sunnis joining hands to end terrorism around the world? Since, in my judgment, we were wrong to go in, I'm afraid there's no good way to get out.

    Americans didn't know what "winning" meant in Vietnam, either. Most didn't understand the enemy, its objectives or the lengths to which it was prepared to go to attain them. We had a fuzzy notion of communist "world domination," and the "domino theory" and no realization that what the Vietnamese wanted, south and north, was independence. They didn't want to take over Southeast Asia. They didn't want to invade Los Angeles. They wanted to run their own country. They wanted us out.
     
  17. Trond

    Trond Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    4 / 0
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2002
    Messages:
    288
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    It's so easy to forget that he doesn't represent the majority. I have three wonderful years behind me in the states and have lots of good friends from that time that I respect and admire. W has done a good job of trying to erase that, so has most of the European press by focusing on him and his less-than-tactful foreign affairs. It doesn't help that he comes off as a religious freak (God told me to save the world - type) and has a smirk that you'd never trust.

    Speaking to my Am-friends and reading here helps so much. I sometimes catch myself thinking d*mn Americans when I should be thinking d*mn administration.
     
  18. Echo

    Echo crooked smile

    Rep/Likes:
    5 / 1
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2002
    Messages:
    11,818
    Location:
    Slacking at work
    I like how no matter what's going on over there, the military says they are "bracing for an increase in insurgent attacks". They say it like, well once this election is over, the insurgents will realize they lost. Oh wait, once the constitution is drafted, the insurgents will realize they lost. Oh wait, once the constitution draft passes, the insurgents will realize they lost. Oh wait, once the... you get the idea :rolleyes:
     
  19. McGRP01

    McGRP01 beer and bikes

    Rep/Likes:
    4 / 0
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2003
    Messages:
    7,797
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    2001 and rising....
     
  20. kinghami3

    kinghami3 Future Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 0
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2004
    Messages:
    2,241
    Location:
    Ballard 4 life.
    I just found out my parents are going to go to a demonstration in response to this in Bellingham. I'm actually not embarrassed to be related to them for once.
     
  21. N8 v2.0

    N8 v2.0 Not the sharpest tool in the shed

    Rep/Likes:
    17 / 149
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Messages:
    11,008
    Location:
    The Cleft of Venus
    I wonder what the body count in Chicago is over the last 3 years....???

    Oh wait....
    Let's see.... 599+648+645 = 1893

    Where's the protestors?
     
  22. N8 v2.0

    N8 v2.0 Not the sharpest tool in the shed

    Rep/Likes:
    17 / 149
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Messages:
    11,008
    Location:
    The Cleft of Venus

    It's between 26,000 and 30,000... roughly 70% of the number of Americans killed in motor vehicle accidents in a single year.

    Source: http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
     
  23. fluff

    fluff Monkey Turbo

    Rep/Likes:
    3 / 0
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2001
    Messages:
    5,672
    Location:
    Feeling the lag
    Hell, let's start a war on automobiles. Should we invade Detroit, or Japan?
     
  24. Echo

    Echo crooked smile

    Rep/Likes:
    5 / 1
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2002
    Messages:
    11,818
    Location:
    Slacking at work
    Start with Detroit. Maybe they'll get Kid Rock by accident.
     
  25. N8 v2.0

    N8 v2.0 Not the sharpest tool in the shed

    Rep/Likes:
    17 / 149
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Messages:
    11,008
    Location:
    The Cleft of Venus
    How about a war on drunk drivers?

    And in 1982 that number was 26,173, about the number of dead Iraqis.

    Think about that the next time you liberals get drunk and stoned and drive home....
     
  26. MMike

    MMike A fowl peckerwood.

    Rep/Likes:
    61 / 84
    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2001
    Messages:
    18,261
    Location:
    just sittin' here drinkin' scotch
    dUH.... JAPAN of course.... curse their little yellow hides...
     
  27. ghostrider

    ghostrider 7034 miles, still no custom title

    Rep/Likes:
    5 / 1
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Messages:
    964
    Location:
    Shadows of Mt Boney, CA.
    Bush will probably declare war on Mother Nature first. Damn hurricanes and earthquakes are worse than terrorists. Mother Nature must be stopped!!!!
     
  28. Echo

    Echo crooked smile

    Rep/Likes:
    5 / 1
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2002
    Messages:
    11,818
    Location:
    Slacking at work
    N8 are you really serious? You're comparing auto accidents to bombing villages.

    On the other hand, you're probably onto something when you compare the illegal and criminal act of murder to what's going on in Iraq.
     
  29. N8 v2.0

    N8 v2.0 Not the sharpest tool in the shed

    Rep/Likes:
    17 / 149
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Messages:
    11,008
    Location:
    The Cleft of Venus

    Just providing some comparisons to the numbers... I don't see any vocal anti-killing protestors in Shy Town.... where the murder rate is high because of drugs mostly...
     
  30. fluff

    fluff Monkey Turbo

    Rep/Likes:
    3 / 0
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2001
    Messages:
    5,672
    Location:
    Feeling the lag
    Hey now you're talking - War On Drugs!

    What? We did? Already? Oh, how's it going?

    That well huh?
     
  31. Slugman

    Slugman Frankenbike

    Rep/Likes:
    5 / 0
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2004
    Messages:
    4,031
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    Actually:
    2003 - 599 homicides
    2004 - 445 homicides
    And it will be even fewer this year than last year… 7.1% drop = 414 this year
    http://www.ccchronicle.com/back_new/2004_fall/2005-01-18/citybeat.php?id=589

    So by the end of the year there will be about 1500 in Chicago over the last 3 years…

    What do you think the number will be in Iraq?

    And What was your point?

    Why don't you give us those numbers based on a percentage of he population... unless you really thing Iraq and the US are teh same size.
     
  32. fluff

    fluff Monkey Turbo

    Rep/Likes:
    3 / 0
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2001
    Messages:
    5,672
    Location:
    Feeling the lag
    Yup. String 'em up.
    That's actually quite funny when you consider some of the problems that your hero's had over the years.
     
  33. jimmydean

    jimmydean The Official Meat of Ridemonkey

    Rep/Likes:
    172 / 1,453
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2001
    Messages:
    28,945
    Location:
    Portland, OR
  34. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 1
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2005
    Messages:
    3,978
    Location:
    Chandler, AZ, USA

    That number is highly debatable. There are some studies that show as much as 300,000 civilian death caused directly and indirectly (malnutrition, insurgents, bombs, lack of medical care et. al.).
     
  35. Inclag

    Inclag Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    8 / 31
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2001
    Messages:
    2,322
    Location:
    MA
    Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
    And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
    That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
    A sun that is the source of all our power.

    The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
    Are moving at a million miles a day
    In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
    Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'.

    Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
    It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
    It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
    But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.
    We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
    We go 'round every two hundred million years,
    And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
    In this amazing and expanding universe

    The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
    In all of the directions it can whizz
    As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
    Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
    So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,

    How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
    And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,

    'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.


    Just comparing some numbers
     
  36. N8 v2.0

    N8 v2.0 Not the sharpest tool in the shed

    Rep/Likes:
    17 / 149
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Messages:
    11,008
    Location:
    The Cleft of Venus


    :zzzzzzzzzzzzz:
     
  37. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

    Rep/Likes:
    1 / 4
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    9,890
    Location:
    Hypernormality
    Thanks for that N8. Really.
     
  38. Inclag

    Inclag Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    8 / 31
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2001
    Messages:
    2,322
    Location:
    MA

    :witty:
     
  39. dante

    dante Unabomber

    Rep/Likes:
    11 / 8
    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2004
    Messages:
    8,998
    Location:
    looking for classic NE singletrack
    ya, too bad this "death" doesn't count according to the pentagon. only forces that actually die *in* Iraq are counted...
     
  40. kinghami3

    kinghami3 Future Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 0
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2004
    Messages:
    2,241
    Location:
    Ballard 4 life.
    So N8, if we never started the war, and instead spent those many billions of dollars on things like automotive safety or air-conditioning for the poor in Chicago, what would you have to say to that?

    What's worse is that all these arguments are evolving around numbers, not the sanctity of life. Intent has everything to do with this argument, and reflects the nature of the offender. Any death has tragedy involved, so why are we trying to justify causing more?