i think green has grown on me since i've been riding a kawasaki green DH bike all season, so i saw it was like "hey thats pretty cool"ohio said:
2005 Iron Horse Heyah
- Thread starter The Kadvang
- Start date
Acadian said:
Isn't it the Hollowpoint MTX?
active=neutral under braking forces
compared to well designed floating braking?
compared to well designed floating braking?
do you see it in the lineup?RideND said:
reason why I was asking..
Well, based on that description, ALL of the dw-link bikes in the new Iron Horse and Independent Fabrication lineup are very active under braking. The bikes are designed to keep a neutral attitude when you hammer on the brakes in the rough stuff. This lets the rider take an aggressive cornering stance because the bike has a very controllable feel when you are slowing down hard and approaching a corner.
dw
dw
So let's get this straight... you managed to design a bike that pedals better than anything else, manages to keep a neutral attitude (I assume you mean that it has a small amount of brake-induced pro-squat stopping the bike from "rolling" forwards due to weight shifting under braking?), is inherently strong/stiff, is inherently supple/sensitive, has bugger all pedal kickback, and has a great (I'm gonna make an assumption here and say "optimised") shock rate, all within the single linkage design with no extraneous mechanisms? If you really truly did that, impressive ( to me, roughly on the scale of "holy shït they landed a man on the moon"). However - no offence to you as I know you're not an outright liar or anything similar - I find it pretty difficult to believe (being the cynic that I am) that such a "perfect" design exists.dw said:
I really look forward to your explanation of how the bike works
Any idea how long we're gonna be waiting?There is a USA made frame kit available. That is what the Sunday Factory is. There haven't been pictures of those frames released yet, but they look identical to the Taiwan built frames. The differences are that the USA built frames use a proprietary aluminum alloy, and slightly thinner wall thicknesses in some of the triple butted tubing to save a little weight. It is a true "works" DH frame.Lumpy_Gravy said:
Sunday frame geometry:
Sunday 17"
HA = 65.4
SA = 64.4
Eff TT = 23.6"
CS = 17.24"
BB = 13.9"
WB = 45.2"
(with 571mm crown to axle)
Sunday 19"
HA = 65.4
SA = 64.4
Eff TT = 24.6"
CS = 17.24"
BB = 13.9
WB = 46.2"
(with 571mm crown to axle)
One thing to note on the geometry is that the wheelbase lengths are actually pretty spot on for a DH bike, even with the 8" fork. The TT lenghts are just an indication of where the seat is placed on the bikes. We run I-beam type saddle systems on all of the bikes. Our seat placement allows for a wide range of neutral adjustment to fit varying rider sizes. The Sunday frames are one of the only framesets for 2005 that are designed with the specific needs of 8" DH race forks in mind. The bikes also will set up very comfortably with the 7" forks on the market, with a 13.7-13.9 BB height and 66.5-65.5 head angle depending on where you are in the crowns. The reducer system gives the adjustment necessary to allow riders to dial their geometry to suit their fork length.
hope this info helps
Dave
Its no joke man, this is why everything has been so secretive. The system truly is special and unique in many many ways. Theres more though.thaflyinfatman said:So let's get this straight... you managed to design a bike that pedals better than anything else, manages to keep a neutral attitude (I assume you mean that it has a small amount of brake-induced pro-squat stopping the bike from "rolling" forwards due to weight shifting under braking?), is inherently strong/stiff, is inherently supple/sensitive, has bugger all pedal kickback, and has a great (I'm gonna make an assumption here and say "optimised") shock rate, all within the single linkage design with no extraneous mechanisms? If you really truly did that, impressive ( to me, roughly on the scale of "holy shït they landed a man on the moon"). However - no offence to you as I know you're not an outright liar or anything similar - I find it pretty difficult to believe (being the cynic that I am) that such a "perfect" design exists.
I really look forward to your explanation of how the bike works
In additon to all of the stuff that you metioned, the system also can be laid out to build a very strong and lightweight bicycle. All of the rear suspension forces can be mitigated through the seat tube or main uprights. The seat tube is put in tension and torsion which allows me to easily design lightweight tubing or structures that can easily mitigate that force and distribute it. This allows the use of very lightweight butted tubing in the front triangle. The rear triangle similarly can use very lightweight tubing becuase it is mostly triangulated. These features also can lead to simplified (and more affordable to manufacture) frame structures made from more exotic materials, like titanium and carbon fiber for example. All in all, it can be used to build some very efficient, lightwieght, strong, and cost effective bicyle frames. Honestly, when I set out to develop a "holy grail suspension" back in the day, I hoped to attain these goals that I had set, but I did not expect to get them all. Proof that determination and long hours can result in good I guess! Now lets just hope that every bike maker in the world doesn't start to rip it off!
Dave
Rightio. I'll believe it all (or perhaps not) when I ride it... 
I understand the structural stuff you said though, that makes perfect sense. However, like I said, I'm cynical about there being such a neat "solution" (optimisation may be a better word) to everything...
I understand the structural stuff you said though, that makes perfect sense. However, like I said, I'm cynical about there being such a neat "solution" (optimisation may be a better word) to everything...
Hope you got a good patent lawyer! If you build it, they will come...dw said:
...to steal your ideas and take credit for your hard work!
Maybe in a few years the DW-link will be a popular as the Horst link is now.
I have a GREAT patent lawyer actually, referred to me through Stoney and by TheLaw. He really is awesome. European Patents and all, we have it covered in many ways.binary visions said:
Reaching that level of popularity for the system would be damn cool, but for me, I will be really happy just to see riders out on the trail totally psyched about their ride, and empowered by their bikes. To me, the best suspension system is one that is "transparent" to the rider. Thats the basis of what dw-link works to achieve. Doing that lets the rider concentrate on the ride, not suspension quirks, and ultimately equates more fun or faster lap times, depending on your poison that is!
dw
Acadian that is the worst picture to look at on a Friday morning - how am I suppose to get some work done when my head is in Les Gets.
DW you not only design great bikes but you are a great sales person - I am so tempted to sell my 222 and buy the US frame kit.
DW you not only design great bikes but you are a great sales person - I am so tempted to sell my 222 and buy the US frame kit.
What, there's somewhere else to look? Pfft landing, that'll take care of itself.dw said:
Thanks CBJ, I try my hardest at designing the stuff, and I like to let the product sell itself on its features. I also like to try to give you guys an idea of what goes on in my head when I am visualizing the goals of a project. There is always an end set of goals. For bicycle frames and components, most of these goals are based directly on my perceptions as a rider, and the perceptions of those around me (like Sam Hill on the Sunday for example). Once things are built, tested, and proved to meet those goals, then I can share it all with you guys. Its all really worth it once I see someone using the product and enjoying it.
dw
dw
7 POINT Geometry for those who asked:
7POINT 15"
HA = 67.5
SA = 71.5 (unobstructed full length seatpost)
Eff TT = 22.0"
CS = 17.30"
BB = 14.55"
WB = 43.4"
(with 7" fork axle to crown)
7POINT 17"
HA = 67.5
SA = 71.5 (unobstructed full length seatpost)
Eff TT = 23.0"
CS = 17.30"
BB = 14.55"
WB = 44.4"
(with 7" fork axle to crown)
7POINT 19"
HA = 67.5
SA = 71.5 (unobstructed full length seatpost)
Eff TT = 24.0"
CS = 17.30"
BB = 14.55"
WB = 45.4"
(with 7" fork axle to crown)
7POINT 15"
HA = 67.5
SA = 71.5 (unobstructed full length seatpost)
Eff TT = 22.0"
CS = 17.30"
BB = 14.55"
WB = 43.4"
(with 7" fork axle to crown)
7POINT 17"
HA = 67.5
SA = 71.5 (unobstructed full length seatpost)
Eff TT = 23.0"
CS = 17.30"
BB = 14.55"
WB = 44.4"
(with 7" fork axle to crown)
7POINT 19"
HA = 67.5
SA = 71.5 (unobstructed full length seatpost)
Eff TT = 24.0"
CS = 17.30"
BB = 14.55"
WB = 45.4"
(with 7" fork axle to crown)
I don't know that the Sunday is really in the vein of any of those bike you mentioned really!The Kadvang said:
The bike was designed as a race bike, first and foremost. It does have features that make it a hell of a play bike too. The seatpost insertion is very long on the Sunday frame, 11 inches of insertion on the 19" frame and 9 on the 17" frame. Thats more than enough to fit a seat post that can be set at DH or trail height in there. Also, the seat tube ange is not crazy slack or anything, so the bike is actually comfortable with the seat up. Because of the frame's structural layout, a lot of the suspension forces are mitigated through the main uprights. This let me beef up the front end of the bike while still keep ing the bike damn light. The WC complete bike weighs in right at 40. The MadCatz team bikes, which are identical to the production Team/WC frames are weiging in at 38 with no trickery. I had a blast on my Sunday up at Whistler, and it pedals awesome, so I would have to say that the bike is very dual duty with geometry that will let you kill it on the DH courses.
dw
How about some Hollowpoint MKiii numbers dw!?dw said:
The new incarnation of the Hollowpoint series looks amazing.
oh oh...the green beast is OUT!!! BRRAP
I'm with ohio on this one.. I think the green looks awesome.
I love that green too! It stands out and I'm partial to green and also to orange bike frames. Must be the Irish in me!binary visions said:
I would be surprised if IH left Eurobike without any good leads for 2005 distributors at least in Germany.
If not I will twist Todds arm for you the next time I see him.
BRRAAAAAAAAP!Acadian said:
ska todd said:
Ok no arm twisting necessary
Is that 5.10 shoes on Sam? How many pairs did the aussi boys buy? Todd you should have 5.10 make them in an Iron Horse team edition that would be super cool and Sam could get them in special edition green.
I think Sam and Nathan bought every single pair that were in stock!!CBJ said:
I'm sort of new to the DH bike scene but isn't a 13.9" bottom bracket height somewhat low for a DH bike? Aren't most DH bikes in and around the 14.5 - 14.6" bb height range? Is there something about the DW link that can allow for a lower bb height?dw said:
Just wondering out loud and hoping to learn a bit more about DH bike geometry.
LOW BB is the ticket to low times.
Ask Sanjay, his is at like 13 even. The faster you get the more you appreciate/can deal with a low BB. Races are won in the corners and the lower your mass is to the ground the easier a bike is to rail corners. Plus with an evil basher, its not too big of a deal if you hit rocks n stuff from time to time.
Ask Sanjay, his is at like 13 even. The faster you get the more you appreciate/can deal with a low BB. Races are won in the corners and the lower your mass is to the ground the easier a bike is to rail corners. Plus with an evil basher, its not too big of a deal if you hit rocks n stuff from time to time.
The Sunday only has 8" of travel, so it probably still won't get as close to the ground when it bottom's out as bike's with 9-10".
But like Jeff said, Low is fast!
But like Jeff said, Low is fast!
so 13.9 is a favorable bb height by the majority of DH riders - or is it more attuned to the elite Pro and WC Pro type riders?