[Brian Peterson]

This statement is absurd. It's an unfair comparison given 'the masses' didn't have a choice. Also, I'd bet that a majority of 'the masses' that you speak of don't know that there are low-rider crowns available.

I wonder how many current 888 owners would be willing to trade their existing lower crowns if Marzocchi were to have some sort of swap program.

No more absurb than the "Everyone I know" line or the "People on Ridemonkey" justification.

Cowbells.... Now we are getting somewhere...

And James, you have figured me out.... I am the wrathchild, I will bring hell to this earth.... Actually, the politicians pretty much took care of that for me.... Now, time for a Mai Tai....

Brian

 

[RhinofromWA]

I have said it before and will say it again. I think the 888 is a great fork, with an exception:

In stock for the fork does not allow the user to lower the crown if there is room available (running a smaller tire) without having the stock crown smash into the seals. That is that part that bugs me. It is excessively tall in cetain situations. Those situations are the ones that require the purchase of a new crown "if" the owner decides he wants the fork to be as low as it can safely be.

The 888 in it's stock form does not allow this adjustment. For whatever reasons (kind of like lawyer tabs on QR forks, keeping ignorant customers safe from themselves, etc) Marz decided this was what they wanted.

But for those who "want" their bike to be adjustable as possible, an aftermarket crown (Go-Ride, Risse, and Marz) is their only option.

I would much rather have the fork come available to accomidate 2.25's and 3.0 tires with on crown. Is that to much to ask?

Again, I think the 888 is a great fork. Many people could give a rats ass if they can't lower it and have an extra inch plus between the tire and the crown at full compression. I advised a fellow biker at work to ride the bike as is and decide if he wanted the fork to be lower....to him it is OK. He rides whistler and that is about it.

The "want" for the aftermarket crowns will change from bike to bike....but that doesn't change the fact the stock crowns do not give you a real choice. To some that is what they want. I have seen people ride with and without the aftermarket crowns. It comes down to personal preference....and how people like their bikes to ride.

Rhino

 

[vitox]

They are only "sub-optimal" for a small number of people.

Why wouldn't we design the same crown? There haven't been any issues other than a few people who want a slightly lower front end.

A slient acknowledgement?? You are right.... We should scrap the project. We should stop listening to people like yourself. Some people have asked for a lower crown, and when the number got to be enough to where we thought we could recoup our costs to do it, we moved ahead.... And when we do, we are the bad company for doing so... Once again, go figure...

Brian

brian i would hate it if you think i am in some way bashing you or your company, i still think the triple8 is an awesome fork, and i think your involvement in these board not only is really friendly and involved, but im also positive it has a great effect on end products.

so when i say that you guys could have gone "one step further" im not putting you down in any way, im just making an observation on the business decision that marzocchi has taken thats all.

as for the crown height argument, well i dont think anyone expects any other official or non official statement than that the crowns work well as they are now but as espen says, there seems to be no reason to the fork being so tall, other than the ability to run a 3.0+fender+mud which is quite the opposite of what 99% of riders ever will do, so in fact the design favors the 3.0+fender+mud rider over the "want a lower front end" rider. you cant have both with one set of crowns, marzo picked one, i would have picked otherwise, thats all.

 

[vitox]

Dante,
Let me ask you this.... With every frame manufacturer having a different optimum ride height, how do you make 1 product accommodate every design in a cost effective manner? You could do an average, but that is still a compromise that won't make everyone happy...

Brian

bingo!

the "average" notion is all important here, and it seems it got overlooked when the crowns were designed, or at least I cant understand how it got to be taller than all other forks if the aim was for an average riding height.

 

[Brian Peterson]

Once again, I didn't design the fork or set the design goals for the fork. But I know one of them was 3.0 tire clearence. Personally, I have no desire to run a 3.0 tire, but there are people who do. When the Shiver came out and it wasn't 3.0 compatible, I responded to many threads like this as to why they couldn't run a 3.0 tire.

The biggest problem is that many people get in a mindset that what they want is what the masses want. This goes for manufacturers as well as consumers. Example, when we look here on Ridemonkey, there are people that want a lower ride height. Then they come to the conclusion that everybody must want the same thing. But, that is seldom the case. We as a manufacturer have to design a product that accommodates as many "wants" as possible. Not an easy thing to do...

BTW, wasn't there a picture sometime ago posted of a 7in 888 and a 03 Super T that the showed the 888 actually having a little lower a/c? I don't know.... All I know is that on my bike, I don't want my front end any lower... I had it that way before, and it was too steep for me...

Brian

 

[Shmoe]

BTW, wasn't there a picture sometime ago posted of a 7in 888 and a 03 Super T that the showed the 888 actually having a little lower a/c?

Nope, the opposite of that. The thread was hijacked talking about how tall the 888 is.



Does marz USA really even have much influence of the forks being realeased? Or is it up to the Italians mostly? If so, I think we are all barking up the wrong tree.

 

[James | Go-Ride]

Does marz USA really even have much influence of the forks being realeased? Or is it up to the Italians mostly? If so, I think we are all barking up the wrong tree.

DING DING DING

 

[caballero]

The biggest problem is that many people get in a mindset that what they want is what the masses want.

that's the reason why MZ should give the consumer the option of the high an the low crown version (without paying more for the lower crowns)...

why should i buy expensive tuning crowns when i want to use a 888 ? when i order a boxxer i have the option to choose the right upper crown...MZ don't gives a fu...


:mumble:

 

[Incubus]

Monster T, Shiver and 2 boxxers that have been on the front of various bikes I've had in the past. I simply don't have the time to travel to the nearest lift-assisted riding spot. So I have nothing to gain from all of this.

However, I can see the 888 owner's point here. They aren't asking for something new, they're asking for fork height relative to fork travel to remain similar to what it's been for X number of years from Y number of fork manufacturers. Marzocchi included. What's odd is that the wording in some of the responses insinuates that the people here that want a lower fork want something revolutionary. That's not the case. They're just asking for the same thing Marzocchi has delivered for as long as they can remember. If it were impossible to make a lower crown due to some other design aspect of the fork it'd be one thing. But the fact that two aftermarket crowns that'll lower the front are available and it appears as though Marzocchi might be going after some of that demand proves that that's not the case.

Additionally, Marzocchi will say all day long that they don't make a make a 1.5" steerer fork because they want their forks to be compatable with a majority of frames. Fair enough. The question as to why is the 888 significantly taller than most every other fork with similar travel has been brought up in this thread and many others. Nobody has offered up an answer. However, Brian isn't trying to dance around the fact that he doesn't know why. Fair enough as well.

So it appears as though everyone is barking up the wrong tree.

 

[narlus]

It will change of course in a few years when will be looking at a 9-10" forks as the norm. Just my 0.38

sweet, then by '07 or so the super monsters will be back in style.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

sweet, then by '07 or so the super monsters will be back in style.

There you have it.

 

[Trigger]

When I'm riding, everybody I meet up with talks about this. All the 888 owners just stands there and talk about their high forks. They don't ride, they don't have fun anymore...I'm not even sure the bike can actually move at all with these forks.

You can't pedal it on the parkinglot, and nobody in the entire WC rides with the 888 and it's high crowns. Didn't see anybody at the redbull rampage that managed to do anything with these forks either.

Blah...

Ever since the 888 came, this has been the most hyped thing ever hit the forums. Now everybody wants lower crowns, even though 99% of the riders that use this fork on dh/freeride bikes won't notice any difference with their skills. But, since everybody talks about, everybody agrees on it and wants it.

Guess the 170 mm 66RC won't sell much then....mine is 1cm (!!) lower than the 200mm 888R, and you can't change the crown. Man...that fork sux! Look how bored I am...not fun at all:

http://pogostick.net/~trygve/biking/66rc/TrygveFFF0403.jpg

My point being...this is the best fork I've tried in a long time. And look at the price! Performance-vice it's up there with the Dorado's. Price-vice it's down below the Shiver DC's. Even if you had to pay another 200$ to fit it on your bike (either because of geometry or just hype influence), it's still the plushest and best fork in it's pricerange from my point of view....

The damn thing sags close to 30% when you climb on...that is the geometry you're actually riding....

 

[Brian HCM#1]

It doesn't improve your skills but will allow some bikes to handle better, I was pessimistic about trying a set for myself, purely for an experiment to actually see what all this hype was about. I've always been the bolt it on and ride it person, and my bike felt pretty good with the stock crowns, however I did get a set of Risse lowering crowns and noticed a huge improvement on the first time it hit the dirt, the bike handled WAY better. I'm not saying everyone should change the crowns from the stock ones, but it made a big improvement for me.

 

[OGRipper]

Although I'm one of the instigators there really is no reason to come down on Brian, he's just an employee. I'm actually surprised he keeps showing up here - maybe he's a bit masochistic. Props to him for coming on here and telling us his version of what's up. As dante said, let's not shoot the messenger, and let's not stray from the fact that Brian is not the fork company and probably has very little say in what the company is pushing (er, selling).

That said, Brian it's pretty lame of you to discount our opinions as the ramblings of a few internet freaks - a lot of us here have a lot of influence on the buying decisions our friends make, and we know what we think we want to buy next. Take that for what it's worth, but I'm not sure how many other rich sources of rider feedback you have, other than fork groupies you meet in person who tell you everthing your company makes is great just to get a couple stickers or meet a marzocchi girl. Yeah, you've got pro riders but haven't they been seen with lowrider crowns?

The lower crowns make a big difference, and they make the 888 work for people that wouldn't otherwise get one. Maybe the company doesn't care about that, and maybe there are a bunch of people who are really happy with the stock crowns. Great. Ignorance is bliss I guess, and maybe a fork that works "fine" is good enough for them.

Anyway, still curious about whether the low speed compression sleeve will be stock on the 888 in the future. The sleeve is another example of a way to make a great product better. (May apply to the 66 too?) In this case, it was actually made by 'Zoke - that seems to be a tacit admission that a legitimate need exists. Any word on whether it will be stock, or if the compression issue will be addressed another way, or if it will remain a performance option only available aftermarket to those of us that have heard about it?

 

[MikeD]

I guess you could also say that for the 'bolt on and ride it' crowd, the lower crowns would be just as good as the taller ones, too...so maybe just offering the lower ones would satisfy everyone.

 

[Espen]

Hey man, take it easy!
This has nothing to do with fun or not.
Have you ever tested a 888 with lower crowns and the comp sleeve???
This is not hype at all, this is about lowspeed compression and getting right geometry on a bike.

E

When I'm riding, everybody I meet up with talks about this. All the 888 owners just stands there and talk about their high forks. They don't ride, they don't have fun anymore...I'm not even sure the bike can actually move at all with these forks.

You can't pedal it on the parkinglot, and nobody in the entire WC rides with the 888 and it's high crowns. Didn't see anybody at the redbull rampage that managed to do anything with these forks either.

Blah...

Ever since the 888 came, this has been the most hyped thing ever hit the forums. Now everybody wants lower crowns, even though 99% of the riders that use this fork on dh/freeride bikes won't notice any difference with their skills. But, since everybody talks about, everybody agrees on it and wants it.

Guess the 170 mm 66RC won't sell much then....mine is 1cm (!!) lower than the 200mm 888R, and you can't change the crown. Man...that fork sux! Look how bored I am...not fun at all:

http://pogostick.net/~trygve/biking/66rc/TrygveFFF0403.jpg

My point being...this is the best fork I've tried in a long time. And look at the price! Performance-vice it's up there with the Dorado's. Price-vice it's down below the Shiver DC's. Even if you had to pay another 200$ to fit it on your bike (either because of geometry or just hype influence), it's still the plushest and best fork in it's pricerange from my point of view....

The damn thing sags close to 30% when you climb on...that is the geometry you're actually riding....

 

[punkassean]

hmmm... Maybe there are people who feel the stock crowns work fine...

Brian

No doubt there are people who feel that the stock crowns are fine. In fact, most people probably don't know or care. by offering low rider crowns Marzocchi is acknowledging the fact that there are people who aren't satisfied with the stock crowns. Furthermore by not offering the customer a choice at the time of initial purchase you (not you BP, Marz.) are alienating them. I think that having two crown height options is great and I applaud Marzocchi for recognizing an issue and dealing with it to some extent. But making people who want the low rider crowns buy the complete fork only to pay almost $300 more to get it how they want it is insane. How much more complicated would it be to sell the fork -crowns and let the customer choose their crowns? Rock Shox does this with Boxxer top crowns and Manitou does it with what they call SM or LG (flat crown or drop crown). It would seem to me that manufacturing costs ultimately would be similar for both styles of crowns so why not offer a true choice?

Please don't confuse this for Marz bashing, that's the last thing I want to do, but I really think there is a better solution to this...

Thanks again for always answering our Marz related Q's and maintianig your cool regardless of inflamed opinions.

 

[Brian Peterson]

Ok... Here is the deal...

First off, the works crowns cost us significantly more. Why? Because they are CNC'd instead of being forged like the stock crowns. Why is that? Volume. Currently there is not enough demand to go though the expense of making two new molds. Anyone here involved with manufacturing can confirm, that is not a cheap process.

Second, if specified by the shop ordering the fork at the time of ordering, the crowns will only be $150. However this must be done at the time of ordering. Before you ask about swaps or trade ins, sorry, we can't do that.

Why do I keep coming here? It is one of two reasons... It's like a car wreck and I have to look again, or because I would rather try and provide people with information based on something other than opinion and speculation. I know that takes away from the whole purpose of the Internet....

Brian

 

[Salami]

Second, if specified by the shop ordering the fork at the time of ordering, the crowns will only be $150. However this must be done at the time of ordering.

Brian

Good news. Much better than the prvious option.


What about the picture you were going to post??

 

[RhinofromWA]

Brian,

I respect and enjoy having you on RM....but we (the rest of us) can be pains in the ass sometimes.

I like the fork over all. It is a fine working fork. I just think the lower crown is not as versitile as it could be. That is just an observation.

To me, it is like designing a Ford F150 with a built in non-removable body lift stock to fit huge arse tires and then expecting people who don't want to run huge arse tires to be OK with the higher center of gravity than normal and a big unneeded gap from the std size tires to the wheel wells. Now if the body height was adjsut able (by removing the extra spacers) to deliver a lower ride height relatively easily that would be optimal.

I just don't think that the stock provided crown is optimal for the range of riders...in fact it is optimal if you run the big tires and less if you don't.

Bottom line my only true gripe, about an otherwise great fork, is the lack of adjustibility in the lower crown.

You are a credit to Marzocchi and I hope they treat you well.

Rhino

 

[Brian Peterson]

Good news. Much better than the prvious option.


What about the picture you were going to post??

Let's try it again now that I was able to get the pic resized....

Brian

 

[Brian Peterson]

Brian,

You are a credit to Marzocchi and I hope they treat you well.

Rhino

Please feel free to call or email my boss and tell him how I should get a promotion and big raise...


Brian

 

[banj]

Thanks for the pic Brian. Looks good...nice and simple.

 

[OGRipper]

Thanks Brian, those crowns are looking good.

Any word on the low speed compression issue?

 

[binary visions]

So...

Ditka vs. the new low-rise 888 crowns from Marzocchi.

Who wins?

 

[punkassean]

As a $150 upgrade at time of purchase that's a fair enough deal. I'm sure the stock crowns could be sold to cover the $150.

Thanks for heads up and the pic.

Bryson is lucky to have you around!

Maybe you should get two paychecks, one for your regular job and one for your PR services.

 

[binary visions]

I would be very curious to see who would be buying the stock 888 crowns, considering they're free with the fork purchase...

 

[punkassean]

I would be very curious to see who would be buying the stock 888 crowns, considering they're free with the fork purchase...

people who bought used 888's and need a full length steer tube or people who get a new frame and need a longer steer tube.

 

[Incubus]

As a $150 upgrade at time of purchase that's a fair enough deal. I'm sure the stock crowns could be sold to cover the $150.
....

Are you still getting the stock crowns if you've 'upgraded' them to works crowns?

 

[Brian Peterson]

Are you still getting the stock crowns if you've 'upgraded' them to works crowns?

No... If you want both, you wold need to pay full price for the crowns.

As for the Low Speed Compression situation someone asked about, to my knowledge, the cartridge has been reworked for more low speed compression.

Brian

 

[Trigger]

Hey man, take it easy!
This has nothing to do with fun or not.
Have you ever tested a 888 with lower crowns and the comp sleeve???
This is not hype at all, this is about lowspeed compression and getting right geometry on a bike.

E

For me...having fun on the bike is everything. And if the setup is wrong, the bike handles bad, and parts of the fun is gone. Do you have any other reason for tuning your bike, than to get as much fun as possible out of it?

And yeah, I tested Espen J's bike before he went to the World Cup. But of course, it was another type of bike - so hard to feel a difference. Never tried lower crowns on my old 888/vpfree combo.

And the comp sleeve wasn't in my argument, and has barrely been mentioned in this thread as well. So my comments was on the crowns only.

And another thing. Getting "the right geometry".... Look back 7-8 years, on the DH bikes then that had the "right geometry". But all the steps that has been taken to get the bikes where we are today, has been criticized by the smartypants communities...

Yes, these are some damn tall forks. And when people replace their Shivers, Boxers and Super T's, the bike gets taller. Then, after a short time, before they get used to the bikes new geometry they put on the lower crowns and get back closer to the geometry they had on the previous fork...and they never have to try to get used to riding a taller fork.

No, it won't fit a lot of bikes. But this goes for a lot of equipment....though it feels good on bikes like RM's, Sc's (except the v10) and such.

How do you know it ain't partly(!!!) a hype?
Hype as in "we pay this fact way to much attention compared to how big the problem really is".

 

[Espen]

I have been running many DH forks on my bikes. WB DH3, Dorado, Boxxer and Ava DHF8Ti. Some of these forks have too tall, some too short, and thats why I want right height on my feature forks. Right geometry is what the constructor had in mind when he made the frame. Some adjustments for the spesific rider is good, but not 2" above.
I mentioned the compsleeve, because a 888 with low crowns and the sleeve will feels like your 66 or better!! It weight the same, it's the same height and it got more lowspeed comp. Only difference is the stiffer dual crown chassis.

E

 

[grimm]

If i owned a 888, and needed to lower the fork id go with the M's original replacement crowns and keep my warranty..

 

[tmmccree]

Any ideas how much lower the Marz crowns will be than stock?

The Risse/Go-Ride crowns appear to be completely flat, where as the pic of the Marz crown shows them to be slightly arched (looks it to me at least).

I hope these new crowns will be available world-wide, realistically. Not just send one or two to other countries for the reps to show off. I'm extremely interested in some 888s, but the height has always concerned me (for my particular frame).

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Any ideas how much lower the Marz crowns will be than stock?

The Risse/Go-Ride crowns appear to be completely flat, where as the pic of the Marz crown shows them to be slightly arched (looks it to me at least).

I hope these new crowns will be available world-wide, realistically. Not just send one or two to other countries for the reps to show off. I'm extremely interested in some 888s, but the height has always concerned me (for my particular frame).

They look flat too me, looks like Go-Ride was onto something when they wanted to make a crown for this fork. They seem to be quite popular. Risse told me over the phone when I ordered some crowns that they were totally amazed how sales have been with that one product.

 

[oly]

They look flat too me, looks like Go-Ride was onto something when they wanted to make a crown for this fork. They seem to be quite popular. Risse told me over the phone when I ordered some crowns that they were totally amazed how sales have been with that one product.

Are you happy with the Risse crowns? I remember some critical comments from someone about how the Risse ones wouldnt work, or give you very little difference between old and new.....

Curious as I may be in the same boat of deciding on crowns.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Are you happy with the Risse crowns? I remember some critical comments from someone about how the Risse ones wouldnt work, or give you very little difference between old and new.....

Curious as I may be in the same boat of deciding on crowns.

Mine worked perfect, I no longer have the fork though.

 

[joelsman]

hey oly, I have the risse crowns and am very happy with them, i noticed a big difference on my dh9, handles much better now, with the stock crowns my yeti was a chopper... well still is but not so much. lowers the fork just over 1in.

Brain P- thank you for posting what you know, I am another 888 rider who purchased lower crowns and noticed a difference. many people ask me about mine and how much they cost, and how much of a difference they make. I recommed them to most people.

 

[Castle]

No... If you want both, you wold need to pay full price for the crowns.

As for the Low Speed Compression situation someone asked about, to my knowledge, the cartridge has been reworked for more low speed compression.

Brian

Brian,

I too really appreciate you stoppin in on this board and posting the truth, yes it takes away from the e speculation but it also puts people in there place and slows down some of the garbage some seem to spit from time to time before really doing there homework to know the truth.

I'm glad you hit on this topic, because I was gonna call and ask anyway...
so, Does the low speed compression sleeve not work on the '05 888 or is it just not necessary?

Is this something to be installed on last year's fork only? I installed one on mine from last year and the improvement was huge!

thanks again for being around...

 

[partsbara]

Brian,

I too really appreciate you stoppin in on this board and posting the truth, yes it takes away from the e speculation but it also puts people in there place and slows down some of the garbage some seem to spit from time to time before really doing there homework to know the truth.

I'm glad you hit on this topic, because I was gonna call and ask anyway...
so, Does the low speed compression sleeve not work on the '05 888 or is it just not necessary?

Is this something to be installed on last year's fork only? I installed one on mine from last year and the improvement was huge!

thanks again for being around...

yeah i d like to know this as well... i noticed in my few short rides on my 05 888rc that the front does tend to dive a little in corners... i haven t ridden an 04 so i can t really compare...

i also run rissie clamps ... top stuff, overall i m very stoked on the fork... curious to know if the comp sleeve will work tho'

partsbara