[Old Man G Funk]

No. But there is a slippery slope dilemma. Where do you draw the line? You find an easy middle ground and you have done something no lawmaker has ever done. I say do away with it all. Most here would disagree with that but I, quite frankly, don't care.

Um, but that's exactly what has been done. Welfare is a middle ground. We apportion funds out to the needy on the basis of a series of rules and regulations. How is that not a middle ground?

 

[LordOpie]

No. But there is a slippery slope dilemma. Where do you draw the line? You find an easy middle ground and you have done something no lawmaker has ever done. I say do away with it all. Most here would disagree with that but I, quite frankly, don't care.

I honestly hope that you someday fall on hard times and require the govt's help.

 

[Silver]

I honestly hope that you someday fall on hard times and require the govt's help.

And I hope that if that happens to him, he gets the governement he wants to have

 

[Transcend]

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm

"Normally, the U.S. Congress would simply raise the Debt Limit; they haven't done that because they cannot get anyone to buy our debt anymore!

Here's what is happening right now: If they raise the debt limit authorizing the Treasury to sell more T-Notes and Bonds, but no one buys them, it will force the government to monetize the debt again - print money for the debt. If it does that PRIOR to March, the Federal Reserve will have to report how much cash gets put into the economy. This is why the Federal Reserve announced a few months ago it would STOP reproting the M3 Money supply in March. They all knew this day of financial ruin would hit; it just hit before they expected."

Edit: I forgot to add that China has $600 bln US in cash stockpiled. It is getting ready to dump it (recently anounced). They feel it is unstable due to debt and are changing to the Euro.

- US GDP is about $12.7 trillion. National debt is roughly 68% of GDP.
- UK owes 40% of GDP. The rest of europe is about 3.1%.

Edit #2 2005 figures.

 

[LordOpie]

so the dollar is weakened?

If it's not weakened a lot, isn't this good for global economics? Sure, it means the American lifestyles won't be quite as extravagant for the middle class, but since our poor is like the middle class in many countries, well, screw us.

 

[LordOpie]

oh, side note: people say the executive branch doesn't affect the economy, but when spending is out of control to the point where our debt is affecting inflation, well, there ya go... Bush does have influence in the economy. The only problem is, this won't show up for 4-6 years.

 

[gschuette]

You mean like, say, giving you $8000 a year to educate yourself, while you instead just **** around and play all the time?

I actually have a good job that lets me pay for my school and my recreatrion. But hey lets not let that little detail get in the way of the conservative leaning idiot kid bash fest.

I hope it doesn't offend you that I have a job. Maybe I should transfer to Kansas. There isn't **** to do there. I really don't see what is so wrong with me living where there are ample opportunities to do the outdoor activities that I love.

it's preposterous to think that the right is for "small" government and the left is for "big" government.

I don't see where I made that correlation but thanks again for putting words in my mouth.

I said I am personally for small government. I never mentioned the president or parties

 

[Transcend]

I actually have a good job that lets me pay for my school and my recreatrion. But hey lets not let that little detail get in the way of the conservative leaning idiot kid bash fest.

I hope it doesn't offend you that I have a job. Maybe I should transfer to Kansas. There isn't **** to do there. I really don't see what is so wrong with me living where there are ample opportunities to do the outdoor activities that I love.



I don't see where I made that correlation but thanks again for putting words in my mouth.

I said I am personally for small government. I never mentioned the president or parties

You don't get it, do you? You go to a state funded school. Why shoudl US tax payers pay for your education? They didn't give birth to you.

Go to a private institution (harvard, yale etc) then tell me that your part time job will cover it without loans.

 

[gschuette]

I don't really like the Northeast.

Seriously though. Welfare checks in the mail. Medicare. Social Security. Programs like that are what I am against. Not schooling, road building, and other things of that nature. I said small government not zero government. I don't claim to be an anarchist.

 

[Transcend]

I don't really like the Northeast.

Seriously though. Welfare checks in the mail. Medicare. Social Security. Programs like that are what I am against. Not schooling, road building, and other things of that nature. I said small government not zero government. I don't claim to be an anarchist.

It's all the same thing. Medicare and Social Security are as or more important then your dirt cheap schooling and interstates to drive your SUV on.

 

[LordOpie]

I don't really like the Northeast.

Seriously though. Welfare checks in the mail. Medicare. Social Security. Programs like that are what I am against. Not schooling, road building, and other things of that nature. I said small government not zero government. I don't claim to be an anarchist.

So you're FOR programs that help you and AGAINST programs you don't need. What a tool

 

[Changleen]

I don't really like the Northeast.

Seriously though. Welfare checks in the mail. Medicare. Social Security. Programs like that are what I am against. Not schooling, road building, and other things of that nature. I said small government not zero government. I don't claim to be an anarchist.

So, you get your wish and Medicare and Social security are abolished tomorrow. What happens next?

 

[ohio]

I actually have a good job that lets me pay for my school and my recreatrion. But hey lets not let that little detail get in the way of the conservative leaning idiot kid bash fest.

I hope it doesn't offend you that I have a job.

Transcend gets it but you don't.
http://www.suu.edu/ss/cashier/tuition-undergrad.html
In state tuition for a normal semester: $1417
Out of state tuition for a normal semester: $4677

Taxpayers are paying two thirds of your bill, and they get nothing directly in return. Whether you pay the ~$1500 yourself or not, you're using ~$3000 in other people money every term you're in school. Explain how this is different than welfare.

Maybe I should transfer to Kansas. There isn't **** to do there. I really don't see what is so wrong with me living where there are ample opportunities to do the outdoor activities that I love.

Oh, I don't think there is anything wrong with recreating, but you better be making the most of the money that Uncle Sam (or Brother Utah, in this case) is giving you. Where is the incentive to make sure you're actually using the education? I would kick you out of the school if you had less than a B average and missed more than 2 classes.

I don't see where I made that correlation but thanks again for putting words in my mouth.

I said I am personally for small government. I never mentioned the president or parties

My apologies, you're right that you didn't mention political parties. You used terms that are commonly used as a line between the two and I assumed (though I never mentioned the president either, but thanks for putting words in my mouth). How about this: you stated that you (gschuette)are for small government and I (ohio) am for big government. Do you agree that this is what you actually said? I never claimed that I like big governnment. In fact I stated specifically that I prefer small government and explained why we have different views of small government. My preferred governement would actually be smaller in bureacracy (personnel), and budget (tax or spend dollars), and have less interference with my daily life than yours. Along what dimensions would your preferred governement be smaller than mine? Do you still think your statement is correct? If so, why?

 

[gschuette]

Reactor quoted the Constitution and claimed that it is the governments responsiblity to promote general welfare, however taxing multiple people to provide a single individual capable of working is exceptional welfare. No where in the constitution does it say that the government is responsible for providing a life (i.e. food, shelter, spending money) for its citizens. In fact in doing so it creates an even greater burden on those who aren't satisfied with being a drain on society. While this may seem harsh it is the truth. In nature those that are to weak, stupid, lazy, or are incapbable of taking care of themselves die. Nature Bitch! Thereby improving the odds that those who excel will procreate and better the species. By not having these consequences we are insuring that the stupid, lazy, and incompetent will be able to pass along their genes and thereby dooming the human race. For those of you who believe that the odds are stacked so greatly against these people that it is impossible to make there own living then you quiet simply are ****ing retards. How hard is it to walk over to your nearest McDonald's and get a job? If this is the adversity which you are speaking of then you should be shot and save everyone a lot of time and money. Will a career in fast food make you millions so you'll have an easy life? No, but at least you won't be a total waste of genetic material.

:mumble: I am just pointing out the extreme of the situation but since most of you seem eager to paint the picture that I am an extreme conservative I guess the anecdote fits.


Ohio I acknowledge that I said something about government size but I don't see it right now. I don't know where it is so if you know can you quote it and I will answer your question.

*edit* I let my hyper conservative friend write all but the address to ohio. I left it as is because I think it is funny as hell and true at a very extreme level.

 

[ohio]

Reactor quoted the Constitution and claimed that it is the governments responsiblity to promote general welfare, however taxing multiple people to provide a single individual capable of working is exceptional welfare [sort of like taxing multiple people to pay for the education of someone who can work and pay for it himself?]. No where in the constitution does it say that the government is responsible for providing a life (i.e. food, shelter, spending money) for its citizens [See the Declaration of Independence]. In fact in doing so it creates an even greater burden on those who aren't satisfied with being a drain on society. While this may seem harsh it is the truth. In nature those that are to weak, stupid, lazy, or are incapable of taking care of themselves die [First of all, you need to define your use of the term nature... do you mean animal kingdom? Pre-historic man? We are all functioning within the natural laws of physics and chemistry. Second, you clearly have no understanding of social theory and mutually beneficial behavior as it relates to survival. Take much advanced biology or zoology, Jack Hannah?]. Nature Bitch! Thereby improving the odds that those who excel will procreate and better the species. By not having these consequences we are insuring that the stupid, lazy, and incompetent will be able to pass along their genes and thereby dooming the human race [If this really concerns you, you should be focusing on the fact that the poorest and least educated people in the country have the highest birth rates. How do you propose to fix that? I've got 5 bucks that says your solution borders on Fascism]. For those of you who believe that the odds are stacked so greatly against these people that it is impossible to make there own living then you quiet simply are ****ing retards. How hard is it to walk over to your nearest McDonald's and get a job? [So you're in favor of setting minimum wage as a living wage - one which puts an individual above the poverty line? How do you feel about providing education to these folks so that they can actually do more than work at MacDonalds... contribute more to the economy?] If this is the adversity which you are speaking of then you should be shot and save everyone a lot of time and money. Will a career in fast food make you millions so you'll have an easy life? No, but at least you won't be a total waste of genetic material.

:mumble: I am just pointing out the extreme of the situation but since most of you seem eager to paint the picture that I am an extreme conservative I guess the anecdote fits.


Ohio I acknowledge that I said something about government size but I don't see it right now. I don't know where it is so if you know can you quote it and I will answer your question.

Um, it was the beginning of the statement you quoted:

I am for a smaller government and they are for a bigger one. They disagree with me and that's fine.

I hear this one a lot. Actually where we disagree is on the definition of "big" government. "Big" government to me is bloated budget; someone has already pointed out that the Iraq War is costing us far more than every federal social program combined. We could trim a lot more big government by ending the war than by cutting welfare. Big government to me is a government encroaching on my rights, such as freedom of religion, freedom of expression, or right to privacy.

You see "big" government is any government you disagree with.

editted for full quote

 

[LordOpie]

Reactor quoted the Constitution and claimed that it is the governments responsiblity to promote general welfare, however taxing multiple people to provide a single individual capable of working is exceptional welfare. No where in the constitution does it say that the government is responsible for providing a life (i.e. food, shelter, spending money) for its citizens. In fact in doing so it creates an even greater burden on those who aren't satisfied with being a drain on society. While this may seem harsh it is the truth. In nature those that are to weak, stupid, lazy, or are incapbable of taking care of themselves die. Nature Bitch! Thereby improving the odds that those who excel will procreate and better the species. By not having these consequences we are insuring that the stupid, lazy, and incompetent will be able to pass along their genes and thereby dooming the human race. For those of you who believe that the odds are stacked so greatly against these people that it is impossible to make there own living then you quiet simply are ****ing retards. How hard is it to walk over to your nearest McDonald's and get a job? If this is the adversity which you are speaking of then you should be shot and save everyone a lot of time and money. Will a career in fast food make you millions so you'll have an easy life? No, but at least you won't be a total waste of genetic material.

:mumble: I am just pointing out the extreme of the situation but since most of you seem eager to paint the picture that I am an extreme conservative I guess the anecdote fits.


Ohio I acknowledge that I said something about government size but I don't see it right now. I don't know where it is so if you know can you quote it and I will answer your question.

*edit* I let my hyper conservative friend write all but the address to ohio. I left it as is because I think it is funny as hell and true at a very extreme level.

ah, the silver-spoon syndrome.

must be nice to be perfect

 

[fluff]

ah, the silver-spoon syndrome.

must be nice to be perfect

It is.

 

[LordOpie]

It is.

I think we need to hear from your wife

 

[fluff]

I think we need to hear from your wife

Me - "Mrs fluff?"
Mrs fluff - "Yes"
Me - "Is it nice to be perfect?"
Mrs fluff - "Yes"

It appears that she concurs.

 

[BurlyShirley]

My personal budget deficit reached $300 last night as I ordered a bunch more bike parts. The current admin. is wearing off on me.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

My personal budget deficit reached $300 last night as I ordered a bunch more bike parts. The current admin. is wearing off on me.

Except that you can probably pay it off.

 

[LordOpie]

Otherwise we'll have to call him BancruptShirley

PS: why the name change from Surly?

 

[BurlyShirley]

Otherwise we'll have to call him BancruptShirley

PS: why the name change from Surly?

I think "YOU" actually got the ball rolling on that. Remember?

 

[Reactor]

Transcend gets it but you don't.
http://www.suu.edu/ss/cashier/tuition-undergrad.html
In state tuition for a normal semester: $1417
Out of state tuition for a normal semester: $4677

Taxpayers are paying two thirds of your bill, and they get nothing directly in return. Whether you pay the ~$1500 yourself or not, you're using ~$3000 in other people money every term you're in school. Explain how this is different than welfare.

Actually that's not even the full picture, the school in general is 75-80% subsidized. Out of state students are paying about half of what it costs, in state students pay about 15%. So he's getting $8500 a year in educational "welfare".

 

[Reactor]

Reactor quoted the Constitution and claimed that it is the governments responsiblity to promote general welfare, however taxing multiple people to provide a single individual capable of working is exceptional welfare. No where in the constitution does it say that the government is responsible for providing a life (i.e. food, shelter, spending money) for its citizens. In fact in doing so it creates an even greater burden on those who aren't satisfied with being a drain on society. While this may seem harsh it is the truth. In nature those that are to weak, stupid, lazy, or are incapbable of taking care of themselves die. Nature Bitch! Thereby improving the odds that those who excel will procreate and better the species. By not having these consequences we are insuring that the stupid, lazy, and incompetent will be able to pass along their genes and thereby dooming the human race. For those of you who believe that the odds are stacked so greatly against these people that it is impossible to make there own living then you quiet simply are ****ing retards. How hard is it to walk over to your nearest McDonald's and get a job? If this is the adversity which you are speaking of then you should be shot and save everyone a lot of time and money. Will a career in fast food make you millions so you'll have an easy life? No, but at least you won't be a total waste of genetic material.
.

People are supposed to rise above their nature, it's called society. If you believe in natural selection of the human race, how long do you think you'd last if they turned off police and fire services? Next time you rode a pretty bike around town, someone who was bigger, stronger, or better armed would take it away from you. I've heard most of your arguments before, by Hitler, Pol Pot, and others.

Taxing the fortunate, to provide for the needy is the very basis of society. Multiple people are taxed to provide you with a college education, fire department, police protection, your primary education, provide the roads you drive on, and so on and so on.

I'll wager I pay more taxes than you, and I don't complain. If you are reaping the benefits of society, you are obligated to pay for some of the costs.

P.S. for a college kid your spelling sucks.