Leave the crown on while loosening...
2010 Marzocchi 888 Evo tuning thread
- Thread starter Kanye West
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- ideally ideal
d'oh.
I see the error in my ways, thanks for the pointer.
I see the error in my ways, thanks for the pointer.
Im running a 2011 evo ti on my carbon demo, with 63.5 head angle. I weigh 175lbs (80kgs) ish with gear.
I find that my 888 lacks mid travel support, and bottoms out really bad (too often), especially on harsh transitions. Im debating wether I should keep my stock medium 5.5 nm spring and just put 200 mL into the spring side
or
just upgrade to the 6.5 nm firm spring and maybe run 7w fluid (as opposed to 7.5) and 80ish cc into the spring side.
Another thing to consider is that the demo 8 has a rearward weight distribution bias so I keep thinking the firm would be too much. I also race a lot.
Thanks
I find that my 888 lacks mid travel support, and bottoms out really bad (too often), especially on harsh transitions. Im debating wether I should keep my stock medium 5.5 nm spring and just put 200 mL into the spring side
or
just upgrade to the 6.5 nm firm spring and maybe run 7w fluid (as opposed to 7.5) and 80ish cc into the spring side.
Another thing to consider is that the demo 8 has a rearward weight distribution bias so I keep thinking the firm would be too much. I also race a lot.
Thanks
At your weight you should definitely be on a firm spring, no change of oil weight needed. For an elite level rider of that weight, the 6.5 / firm is actually too soft (to give you an idea, the 'firm' is still softer than the 'medium' Fox 40 spring). The stock 5.5 spring in that fork is just far too soft for the majority of riders.
Adding extra oil will just make it ramp up more at EOS, there will be no improvement in initial or mid stroke support - the harder spring is the only real solution. Getting the spring rate correct is the first step in suspension tuning, don't skimp on it.
Adding extra oil will just make it ramp up more at EOS, there will be no improvement in initial or mid stroke support - the harder spring is the only real solution. Getting the spring rate correct is the first step in suspension tuning, don't skimp on it.
So maybe the 2010 evo (steel spring) is valved differently compared to the 2011, but I ran the firm spring in mine, and while it certainly did have better midstoke support, it definitely did lose some small sensitivity and it was all but impossible to get full travel. At the time, I probably weighed over 190 lbs with gear, ran the VAR all the way out, no preload, and comp all the way out. No, it wasn't Geesus fork stiff, but it wasn't particularly compliant either. Not that it means much, but I raced Cat 1 (albeit poorly), and generally rag the sh!t out of my fork. Switched back to the firm spring and 200 ml spring side trick, and I loved it last weekend. Much, much better traction in the high speed chunder, and made my hands very happy. Didn't bottom out like my buddy was with his stock set up. Probably could use some more midstroke support, but it wasn't a deal breaker IMO. In the end, it seems like the best solution would be use the firm spring and let Vorsprung revalve the whole damn thing, but that's a lot to go through to get it "perfect". I also wonder if a firm spring with almost no oil on the spring side would work out ok?
I've been considering getting a firm spring to get a little less dive. I'm also having a hell of a time keeping the bike balanced off of jumps...the fork wants to go straight down. I'm guessing this might be a spring issue, since when I had this identical setup on the yakuza for a weekend, I was jumping everything no problem. That bike differed in geometry, stem length, and a very soft rear end. I'm guessing the firmer fork-than-shock is what allowed the bike to be neutral in the air. Seem accurate?
I don't think the valving would make that much difference, they aren't valved that firmly in stock guise, but it is possible that there is some other factor at play. Maybe the spring rates aren't very accurate and your stock spring is firmer than 5.5 (which would be a good thing).
I've spent some time on a number of them now though (2010-2012) and at 15-20 lbs less than you, I had them diving everywhere with the 5.5 spring unless I ran the compression full in. I set one up for a friend with the 6.5 spring and thought that felt much better, but personally I'd prefer it slightly firmer still.
I think 888s have always been sprung on the soft side and the factory setup has a lot of volume-based ramp up to allow this without bottom out. I always found that resulted a bike that pitches a lot on steep stuff and has a tendency to spring back quite hard (since the progression is spring based, with the ported rebound not helping much).
I think the ideal setup for racing would involve reducing the progression (maybe using lower oil height, or preferably removing/disabling the volume reducer piston) and increasing spring and damper rates to support the fork. Changing the already minimal spring side oil volume wouldn't affect much though, any worthwhile changes would happen on the damper side.
All that said, you've obviously got a setup you're happy with so stick to it. I just wonder if you've perhaps got a firmer actual spring rate than you think, or some other mystery factor that changed your experience from mine.
Definitely. Front/rear balance changes everything, and a firmer rear will exacerbate forward pitching, especially if the front spring rate is too low to begin with.Sandwich said:
I will also add I've only had one day on the mtn with the current set up, and it was super wet/sloppy that day. In those conditions, I generally prefer a pretty squishy set up to increase traction on the slick stuff, whereas a firmer set up seems better to me in dry conditions (which almost never happen at the place I usually ride). It wouldn't surprise me if the firm spring set up was actually faster for racing purposes, but it seemed bizarre that I had all the adjustments (except for rebound) back all the way out. In theory, I would rather use the damping adjustments (as crude as they may be) to tune the ride characteristics rather than not using them at all. My aforementioned buddy just put my firm spring in his 2011 EVO, so we'll get to compare notes soon. Hopefully next time it will be a little drier, as I'm curious (perhaps more than I should be) about how it will feel on the jumps which were really too sloppy to mess with last time.
Interesting comments Udi.
I have the CR, which I actually really like, but I feel the same way- it's really plush but ramps up well, allowing me to get away with a lighter than appropriate spring rate. I've been thinking about getting the firm spring and dropping some oil in order to reduce ramp up but maintain support. I get tons of dive as it is but I love being able to motor over root sections. I can't help but wonder if, with a firmer spring, I'd be higher in travel and have more room to take up braking bumps though.
The CR has no built in progression adjuster, but uses 400ml of oil in the spring side to compensate. Dumping out half of that and getting a firmer spring might also lighten the fork up, which wouldn't be a bad thing either! I switched from that yakuza with a coil to a morewood with an air shock and the rear end is super light, too.
I have the CR, which I actually really like, but I feel the same way- it's really plush but ramps up well, allowing me to get away with a lighter than appropriate spring rate. I've been thinking about getting the firm spring and dropping some oil in order to reduce ramp up but maintain support. I get tons of dive as it is but I love being able to motor over root sections. I can't help but wonder if, with a firmer spring, I'd be higher in travel and have more room to take up braking bumps though.
The CR has no built in progression adjuster, but uses 400ml of oil in the spring side to compensate. Dumping out half of that and getting a firmer spring might also lighten the fork up, which wouldn't be a bad thing either! I switched from that yakuza with a coil to a morewood with an air shock and the rear end is super light, too.
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what yr is your CR ?? i just switched to a 2012 66CR when i built my Entourage had the guys at Marz give it a quick once over under warranty and it was leaking from the adjusting knob on the bottom of the fork , they worked their magic and i,m running it pretty much the way they set it , i think i have a couple clicks on the spring side and it,s running mint , stuff my 888 bottomed on this fork eats it up and begs for more very happy with my purchase .
Okay - forget this n that.
How much do you weigh, and what spring are you running. If you run stiffer than 'normal' because you're super fast etc.. please note in reply.
Me? 228 currently, on a 6.6, and my bike feels uneven no matter how much knob twisting I do, so considering the 7.7 (I used to run it when I was 250+, and once in a blue bottomed it hard).
Yes, Im a goon, I can ride goodish - but no one will want to film my goofy unstylish, low flying ass, but Im still sorta fast. I think my height influences spring choice somehow as well, but I also know I think too much.
Anyone? Bueller?
How much do you weigh, and what spring are you running. If you run stiffer than 'normal' because you're super fast etc.. please note in reply.
Me? 228 currently, on a 6.6, and my bike feels uneven no matter how much knob twisting I do, so considering the 7.7 (I used to run it when I was 250+, and once in a blue bottomed it hard).
Yes, Im a goon, I can ride goodish - but no one will want to film my goofy unstylish, low flying ass, but Im still sorta fast. I think my height influences spring choice somehow as well, but I also know I think too much.
Anyone? Bueller?
This is mostly how I approach setting these things up, the stock spring is way too soft for nearly everyone so most riders need at least the 6.5 spring. If they're a pinner and over 80kg, 7.7 spring for sure. Everyone over 90kg gets the 7.7.
The stock valving lacks a little bit of low speed damping but has more than enough high speed. The Evo valve has not had any changes to the shimstack over the years but the addition of V2 gives enough of an improvement to low speed damping that most people should be happy. Some riders could do with a little more, even with the right spring but in general they are better off with the supreme grip you get from the 888 anyway
The high speed damping is maybe too harsh in stock form for most riders, the more solid (90kg) guys that ride hard like the stock valve but most people will have more grip with a slightly lighter shimstack. Put it this way - Brook Macdonalds preffered settings (eg winning at Val di-'sere)were lighter than the stock setting, but with an air assist on the 7.7 spring to get a higher spring rate. The hard spring is the best answer for more support and the reduced damping gives good grip.
I'll usually remove the VA assembly too, and raise the oil height but still make it more linear than the stock form
That's weird. Some people say you have to ride a harder shimstack to get more Mid-stroke support on the fork. I'm happy with the stock--spring (sub 70kg) and try to put in an additional 16/18/20 or 21 shim if I have some time on my hands. But apart from the diving the fork is fine fork extended riding preventing arm pump and stuff. Boxxers are useless after 3 days in Pds. Leaky and sticky as hell.
btw is the slight bushing play normal? Some people yeah other no.
btw is the slight bushing play normal? Some people yeah other no.
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Oops, it's a 2012 CR. It has a compression adjuster, but no volume adjust/progression adjuster. The one I bought apparently went back to zokes after shipping from taiwan due to some OEM mixup. They rebuilt it and sent it to wheelworld, where I bought it from for a ridiculous deal. It's a great fork.
Interesting stuff! I don't feel like I'm riding low in the travel (too much sag) but I do feel the fork dive heavy and I'm having trouble with nose dive off of jumps. I'm running a CR, but I also feel like high speed compression could be reduced and low speed could be added a bit. I've screwed around with settings trying to get it to not feel harsh, but things like braking bumps and rock scree get a little rough on my hands.This is mostly how I approach setting these things up, the stock spring is way too soft for nearly everyone so most riders need at least the 6.5 spring. If they're a pinner and over 80kg, 7.7 spring for sure. Everyone over 90kg gets the 7.7.
The stock valving lacks a little bit of low speed damping but has more than enough high speed. The Evo valve has not had any changes to the shimstack over the years but the addition of V2 gives enough of an improvement to low speed damping that most people should be happy. Some riders could do with a little more, even with the right spring but in general they are better off with the supreme grip you get from the 888 anyway
The high speed damping is maybe too harsh in stock form for most riders, the more solid (90kg) guys that ride hard like the stock valve but most people will have more grip with a slightly lighter shimstack. Put it this way - Brook Macdonalds preffered settings (eg winning at Val di-'sere)were lighter than the stock setting, but with an air assist on the 7.7 spring to get a higher spring rate. The hard spring is the best answer for more support and the reduced damping gives good grip.
I'll usually remove the VA assembly too, and raise the oil height but still make it more linear than the stock form
I'm at 200lbs/90kg, and on the stock spring and oil volume. How much of a change is the firm spring for a guy who usually gravitates towards soft suspension?
Anyone know the colour of the firm steel spring that is equivalent to the 6.5 firm ti spring?? I see a bunch of different ones for sale but I want to make sure I have the right one for the 2011 evo Ti fork. I want to try it out before I pony up the $$$.
Firm spring is green
A harder shimstack would give more mid stroke support for sure but it would also increase the high speed damping which is a trade off I wouldn't recommend, especially at 70kg.
The most common feedback I hear if they are riding a more or less "out of the box" fork, is too much dive and excessive vibration/harshness over braking bumps and the like (sore hands). I've talked to a lot of riders who tried a harder spring but went back because it rode to harsh but to me this is more a damping problem than spring.
Running the right spring is the first thing to fix the early travel support and then lighter damping/more linear progression will take care of any harshness.
A little bushing movement is normal, it means there is room for the oil to sit between and keep it nice and slippery. You shouldn't notice any knocking or binding on the trail though.
A harder shimstack would give more mid stroke support for sure but it would also increase the high speed damping which is a trade off I wouldn't recommend, especially at 70kg.
The most common feedback I hear if they are riding a more or less "out of the box" fork, is too much dive and excessive vibration/harshness over braking bumps and the like (sore hands). I've talked to a lot of riders who tried a harder spring but went back because it rode to harsh but to me this is more a damping problem than spring.
Running the right spring is the first thing to fix the early travel support and then lighter damping/more linear progression will take care of any harshness.
A little bushing movement is normal, it means there is room for the oil to sit between and keep it nice and slippery. You shouldn't notice any knocking or binding on the trail though.
And therein lies the real issue IMO. Right spring rate at 83kgs and the damping turned all the way out to get it to feel remotely compliant. If you can't tune out the harshness with the comp and VAR back all the way out, then that seems to indicate a valving issue to me.
I'm having a little trouble tuning my '12 evo ti and was wondering if I could get some suggestions. I had this fork feeling pretty good around Utah but I'm now up in Whistler for the remainder of the season and it needs a little work. I'm getting full bottom outs quite often, mostly on the upper mountain trails when it gets fast and rough. I probably weigh around 225 with gear, maybe 230. I've got the Firm Ti spring. Here are my current settings:
16 clicks of pre-load
13 clicks of volume adjust
6 clicks of compression
Am I right in thinking that adding more clicks of volume adjust should in theory help with bottom out and get the fork to ramp up more at the end of the stroke? So far I'm not noticing much of a difference with that adjustment.
I purchased the fork used and haven't taken it apart for service yet as it really doesn't feel like it needs it, everything feels pretty good and smooth, I just need it to be a little more progressive.
I think I could add some oil to help accomplish that? If so, what side leg would I add it to and what would be a reasonable increment to add and test?
16 clicks of pre-load
13 clicks of volume adjust
6 clicks of compression
Am I right in thinking that adding more clicks of volume adjust should in theory help with bottom out and get the fork to ramp up more at the end of the stroke? So far I'm not noticing much of a difference with that adjustment.
I purchased the fork used and haven't taken it apart for service yet as it really doesn't feel like it needs it, everything feels pretty good and smooth, I just need it to be a little more progressive.
I think I could add some oil to help accomplish that? If so, what side leg would I add it to and what would be a reasonable increment to add and test?
I would not use more than 5 clicks of the volume adjust (when Ronnie was still at Marzocchi he said using more was causing problems with the fork), if you want more progression add more oil to the damper side 10cc at a time. I weigh 190 lbs with gear and am running a fox blue spring (sits between marzocchi firm and extra firm) so I think you could possibly be undersprung. I tried the firm, and it was still to soft for me,the extra firm was way to stiff.
Also, is it a harsh "metallic" bottom out? If so check the o-ring on the volume adjuster, if it is shot this could be the problem.
My settings
stock oil levels
fox ti blue spring appr 7.0 N/m
4 clicks compression
11 clicks rebound
2-5 clicks volume adjust (depending on track steepness)
Also, is it a harsh "metallic" bottom out? If so check the o-ring on the volume adjuster, if it is shot this could be the problem.
My settings
stock oil levels
fox ti blue spring appr 7.0 N/m
4 clicks compression
11 clicks rebound
2-5 clicks volume adjust (depending on track steepness)
you can lower the leg after uncsrewing the top cap or take the cartridge out. heres a vid
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I would think that either your oil levels are not to spec, or the volume adjuster o-ring is shot. To check the o-ring
-Remove your rebound adjuster
-slowly remove the volume adjuster (there is a detent ball that will shoot out sideways, so be careful)
-undo your top cap, loosen crown bolts and slowly slide stanchion into lowers( do this slowly, because if that o ring is toast there will be oil above the volume adjust and it will spill out everywhere, possibly including on your front brake).
-the o-ring should be at the bottom of the red volume adjuster body
As far as a fox spring goes, I know people have had mixed results. I just took off he shrink wrap greased the spring up with a liberal amount of slick honey and it has worked great for me.
-Remove your rebound adjuster
-slowly remove the volume adjuster (there is a detent ball that will shoot out sideways, so be careful)
-undo your top cap, loosen crown bolts and slowly slide stanchion into lowers( do this slowly, because if that o ring is toast there will be oil above the volume adjust and it will spill out everywhere, possibly including on your front brake).
-the o-ring should be at the bottom of the red volume adjuster body
As far as a fox spring goes, I know people have had mixed results. I just took off he shrink wrap greased the spring up with a liberal amount of slick honey and it has worked great for me.
o-ring is shot. Anyone know where I might be able to track one of these down in Whistler?
edit: called suspension werx who referred me to 'zoke canada who gave me all the info I need. apparently the o-ring doesn't need to be replaced, this is fairly normal and just means the fork needs to be serviced. gotta love how friendly these canadians are.
edit: called suspension werx who referred me to 'zoke canada who gave me all the info I need. apparently the o-ring doesn't need to be replaced, this is fairly normal and just means the fork needs to be serviced. gotta love how friendly these canadians are.
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o-ring is shot. Anyone know where I might be able to track one of these down in Whistler?
edit: called suspension werx who referred me to 'zoke canada who gave me all the info I need. apparently the o-ring doesn't need to be replaced, this is fairly normal and just means the fork needs to be serviced. gotta love how friendly these canadians are.
Alex is a good guy he will get you sorted out they did my CR66 before i put it on my new build and it works very well have not had to touch the settings yet , i, m gonna try the next heavier spring i have a dozen or more rides on it and it,s a little too lite
2013 Foam Rings and Oil Levels
Just pulled my 2013 888 Evo-Ti apart for the first time.
(The fork was new in box when I received it.)
To my surprise, there were no foam rings installed.
Is this new for 2013 or did they just miss mine?
Not that I care, as they were to be pulled and the space packed with slick-honey.
Next is fluid levels, I checked the Zoke site and it lists 80 and 290? for 2013 and 325 2012-
Everywhere else seems to mention no large changes between 10 and 13, and levels of 325.
So I dumped in 325 ml of 7.5 Redline blend. Packed the foam ring space with Slick-honey and buttoned her up. Have only cycled the fork to fill the damper and to do the handlebar push after putting it together.
Now I'm questioning my choice.
I have a park ride planned for Sunday, but no terrain to test the fork on local - unless dropping curbs counts.
Any thoughts on the fluid levels? - and foam rings?
Cheers!
michael
Just pulled my 2013 888 Evo-Ti apart for the first time.
(The fork was new in box when I received it.)
To my surprise, there were no foam rings installed.
Is this new for 2013 or did they just miss mine?
Not that I care, as they were to be pulled and the space packed with slick-honey.
Next is fluid levels, I checked the Zoke site and it lists 80 and 290? for 2013 and 325 2012-
Everywhere else seems to mention no large changes between 10 and 13, and levels of 325.
So I dumped in 325 ml of 7.5 Redline blend. Packed the foam ring space with Slick-honey and buttoned her up. Have only cycled the fork to fill the damper and to do the handlebar push after putting it together.
Now I'm questioning my choice.
I have a park ride planned for Sunday, but no terrain to test the fork on local - unless dropping curbs counts.
Any thoughts on the fluid levels? - and foam rings?
Cheers!
michael
Don't most people remove their foam rings anyway?
While we're here.... no one has a 6.5 Ti spring collecting dust somewhere, would they??
While we're here.... no one has a 6.5 Ti spring collecting dust somewhere, would they??
FWIW, I think I have a 6.5 steel spring that will likely be available. I say "think", because I'm not entirely convinced it's really a 6.5 spring. Both me and my buddy (190-185lbs with gear) have tried it and had the same jack hammer, no traction having, suckful experience, which seems bizarre given how many (knowledgable) monkeys have repeatedly stated the 6.5 is the right spring for our weight. So I'm beginning to suspect I got the extra-firm somehow (and/or we ride like super-poons). Anyway, my bud still has it, but when I get it back I will try to confirm color, weight, etc...
Marz has stopped fitting the foam rings for 2013 so you're all good there. 325cc is pretty much spot on for the stock oil volume, even with the VA backed out it will sill be reasonably progressive but I find if you lower the oil height much from there you can run in to issues cavitation and/or aeration. If you want the fork to be more linear then take out the VA piston and bring the oil level up a little bit.
Jackalope - the X-Heavy steel spring uses a 4.9mm dia. wire, I don't have a hard at hand right now to check but I'm pretty sure it's thinner. The jackhammer experience you describe is more likely caused by the large amount of high speed damping the fork has (even with the adjuster backed out) so if you would still like to run a firm spring I would take a shim or to out and try that
Wait, wut? Are you suggesting something other than moar shimz? Unpossible, as us monkeys smash rox so hard, we always require moar dampening and moisture. Mods, please strike this blasphemy from the forum.
Thanks for real tho, I will break out my caliper when I get the spring back and see whats up. Maybe once DH season is over I'll use the vid Rice posted and try to play around with the shim stack.
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Just pulled my 2013 RC3 EVO V2 apart only used them about 5 times on local trails and they work well and feel plush but a bit notchy at the top of the travel when you push them down by hand, so I was going to pack the void between the oil and dust seal with grease. Just under 300ml (of pond like) oil came out of the damper side. I run the fork with the volume adjust set to half way. So I was thinking about putting 300ml back in.
But the spring leg has got me a bit confused. There was no oil in the leg at all just a good helping of thin grease. Should I just wipe this off and replace it with 80ml of oil or should they just be running on grease now?
But the spring leg has got me a bit confused. There was no oil in the leg at all just a good helping of thin grease. Should I just wipe this off and replace it with 80ml of oil or should they just be running on grease now?
having trouble with the damper side footnut spinning with the cartridge while trying to tighten it. anyone have any tips? i installed the wheel and tried to push down and then tighten it but that didnt work...should i have removed the spring before doing that?
that thought occurred to me too
edit: cant get the compression adjuster to stop spinning. im sure needle nose vice grips might help..
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That NUT!!!
Taking it off required an impact wrench to spin it off.
Putting it back on, needle-nose on the flats of the compression adjuster, 17mm wrench on the nut turning gently as not to screw the compression adj...got it done up then snugged up nicely.
I also called Zoke Canada, and was confirmed at the 325 ml level, let them know about the website - said that was definitely wrong as fluid levels have not changed. Except for recommending more in the spring leg 125ml and then up from there for tuning progression....
cheers!
michael
Taking it off required an impact wrench to spin it off.
Putting it back on, needle-nose on the flats of the compression adjuster, 17mm wrench on the nut turning gently as not to screw the compression adj...got it done up then snugged up nicely.
I also called Zoke Canada, and was confirmed at the 325 ml level, let them know about the website - said that was definitely wrong as fluid levels have not changed. Except for recommending more in the spring leg 125ml and then up from there for tuning progression....
cheers!
michael
Impact wrench off, impact wrench on. Just be careful putting it on, because if you let it go too long it'll snap the threaded area of the cartridge/dummy rod. Impact wrench is really necessary here though because there's nothing to grip on, as you're finding out. The short impulses of the impact wrench will tighten it, and over-tightening isn't really that big of a deal, in doing this dozens (maybe over 100) of times I did it once.
no impact gun. only battery drill.
how is Garland doing it without a impact wrench in the video?
edit: maybe it is time for a air compressor setup...
how is Garland doing it without a impact wrench in the video?
edit: maybe it is time for a air compressor setup...
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Still don't know what is the right oil volume to put in these forks(2013). Re built them today with 310ml in the RH leg and 100ml in the LH leg. Gave them a good few bounces after putting them back on the bike with the VA backed off and I could only get about two thirds of then available travel. So I removed the spring and had another bounce and still couldn't get full travel with the spring removed. So them I removed 25ml from the damper leg and I could easily get full travel. Put 10ml back in and I could just get full travel with it ramping up. Them playing with the VA could get it to ramp up even more. So I think there is about 295ml in there at the moment so perhaps the new stated oil leaves are correct? I bet I wouldn't be able to get more that half the travel with 325ml in.
I still don't know why there was only grease in the LH leg from new, I have cleaned it all out of the lowers and put 100ml in.
I still don't know why there was only grease in the LH leg from new, I have cleaned it all out of the lowers and put 100ml in.
did you make sure to cycle the cartridge to ensure all the oil was out?
Does anyone know if a ti spring out of a tapered 2012 Evo Ti will fit in a 2013 CR?
I'm not 100% sure if the CR has tapered stanchions or not, or if it would matter. Thanks for any help.
I'm not 100% sure if the CR has tapered stanchions or not, or if it would matter. Thanks for any help.