[4130biker]

Intense, IH, SC..plenty
hell IIRC, the Sunday's geometry didnt change much (if at all) since it was first made

I don't think sunday is bad geometry- but as an example look at all of the freak outs on this forum over 65 Headtube angles on dh bikes, I wouldn't call it fitting with todays crop of bikes.

Kona was ahead of its time in '07 with a 13.5bb and 64ha static geometry on the stab. Watching the progression of their geometry through the years, and seeing some of his crazy bikes, it apears that Fabien Barel influenced this.

Sunday is a bad example, m6 and v10 with sag may have been close to the stab- so we have four bikes out of how many offerings?

M6 and v10 could be called weak examples since thier modern incarnations sport slack and low static geometry despite the long travel.

I will concede that "led the way" with geometry may have been strong wording- maybe "were one of the first with" would have created less of a sh*t storm.
It's was almost as if I said huffy led the way with geometry

 

[norbar]

for what it's worth, I saw at least half a dozen treks being wheeled through the village here in whistler with broken chainstays (both sides) last season alone, never mind the previous two seasons....never saw anyone with broken kona's......demo_9, you continue to be the biggest laugh on this forum.

I've met a guy In Maribor who if I remember right claimed he went threw 5 himself (chainstays that is) but he was hauling ass and that was Maribor.

 

[demo 9]

You guys are so right, it blows my mind! but think of what would happen if i left?!?!?! You would have nobody to prove you E thug status to, which in turn wouldnt make you look cool to your friends, inclag would have nobody to rep; causing a RM rep depression, and you all would be riding 2007 Stabs. Be happy i am here to save you from yourselves! This is no longer the age of progression, this is the age of KONA! We no longer want R&D, nor gearboxes or shimz, we want the 1999 stinky, back from its prime! Besides, inclag is right, who would pay attention to me

Flip, you dont own a kona do you

 

[jonKranked]

You guys are so right, it blows my mind! but think of what would happen if i left?!?!?! You would have nobody to prove you E thug status to, which in turn wouldnt make you look cool to your friends, inclag would have nobody to rep; causing a RM rep depression, and you all would be riding 2007 Stabs. Be happy i am here to save you from yourselves! This is no longer the age of progression, this is the age of KONA! We no longer want R&D, nor gearboxes or shimz, we want the 1999 stinky, back from its prime! Besides, inclag is right, who would pay attention to me

Flip, you dont own a kona do you

 

[demo 9]

^ thats disturbing

 

[4130biker]

You guys are so right, it blows my mind! but think of what would happen if i left?!?!?! You would have nobody to prove you E thug status to, which in turn wouldnt make you look cool to your friends, inclag would have nobody to rep; causing a RM rep depression, and you all would be riding 2007 Stabs. Be happy i am here to save you from yourselves! This is no longer the age of progression, this is the age of KONA! We no longer want R&D, nor gearboxes or shimz, we want the 1999 stinky, back from its prime! Besides, inclag is right, who would pay attention to me

Flip, you dont own a kona do you

I never said anything about r&d being bad, or even other companies sucking. I am pointing out why I don't think kona deserves the bad rap (which appears to be blasphemy to some around these parts).

I think you're an alright guy- I'm not hating on you here, just typing my unpopular view of kona...

 

[demo 9]

I never said anything about r&d being bad, or even other companies sucking. I am pointing out why I don't think kona deserves the bad rap (which appears to be blasphemy to some around these parts).

I think you're an alright guy- I'm not hating on you here, just typing my unpopular view of kona...

wasnt directed at you, i just had to put the 07 stab in there. More for flipfantasia who hates on all my posts

As for the bad rap, maybe its changing, but i have had only bad experiences with kona, and i would like to say i am not alone, being they have that "huffy" image, i certainly didnt start the hate wagon, although i am on it.

my person 2 problems with mine was the stinky i have (GF bike) has a seat collar that hits the linkage when it bottoms out, with 3 types of collars(irrilavent for her anyway) I had a first year bass (formerly cowan DS) it had retarded sizing and super tall standover for a DJ bike, rode like a 21" hardrock

I rode an 08 stab, it had potential (maybe?) I just think that a company that wont change their design, doesnt necessarily get such an "easy" second chance. Time will tell, i wont buy 1, im sure some people will, i just wont applaud them offering 5 year changes to the same design. I dont see any marketing as to why their design is good anyway. (ex ABP is awesome braking, jedi rearwards is fast, XXXX is great pedaling) I am sure flip has some kind words that may contradict my opinion though, hopefully i can get more attention

 

[FlipFantasia]

wasnt directed at you, i just had to put the 07 stab in there. More for flipfantasia who hates on all my posts

then stop saying dumb things. the fact that you fail to realize that these bikes are more than adequate for a large number of riders proves this, you can't get beyond the cool factor and like to slag them. fact is, they're good bikes, they perform well, and they last. the number of former rental bikes I see new riders on in this town proves their durability and shows that they are valuable for getting new riders involved in the sport relatively cheaply.....and no I don't ride a kona, (oh my you're so clever with that funny joke!) I rode one about 10 years ago, it won me a few podiums and then I progressed on to other bikes. I'm sure you're a good kid, but seriously, give it a rest once in a while.

 

[demo 9]

the number of former rental bikes I see new riders on in this town proves their durability

the rest isnt bad, but have you seen the amount of jamis BAMs around diablo, the few that dont snap at the headtube, crack at the shock mount, new riders will ride whatever the mountain gives them. I have talked to tons of noobs who think the jamis is the best DH bike out there, most riders on here wouldnt get caught dead with 1. kona is better than jamis, but thats piss poor logic.

Fun fact of the day, on a size small jamis bam, the front tire hits the downtube on bottom out, while the rear hits the seat tube, somebody forgot to add the tire in CAD

 

[mullet_dew]

I rode an 08 stab, it had potential (maybe?) I just think that a company that wont change their design, doesnt necessarily get such an "easy" second chance. Time will tell, i wont buy 1, im sure some people will, i just wont applaud them offering 5 year changes to the same design. I dont see any marketing as to why their design is good anyway. (ex ABP is awesome braking, jedi rearwards is fast, XXXX is great pedaling) I am sure flip has some kind words that may contradict my opinion though, hopefully i can get more attention

Buying bikes based on marketing, brilliant! Also could you explain why changing the design ever year has a benefit?

I'm starting to see why everyone hates on you.

 

[johnnypop]

For the record... Kona's ride like big turds. And Trek's break in half... Go lowball the crap out of someone on Pinkbike for a 2 year old demo and wait for them to get desperate. It worked on me. Sold mine for dirt cheap just to order the new-fandangled bike.

 

[captainspauldin]

Mitch Delfs is on Kona next year, should be interesting to see what he can do:
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/kona-team-2011.html
man, 3 different teams in 3 years on the WC.

No mention of Joe Smith, wonder what's up w/him..

 

[Pslide]

No mention of Joe Smith, wonder what's up w/him..

CRC/Nukeproof

 

[slyfink]

Mitch Delfs is on Kona next year, should be interesting to see what he can do:
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/kona-team-2011.html
man, 3 different teams in 3 years on the WC.

No mention of Joe Smith, wonder what's up w/him..

So who's left on the Pivot team? Strait? wonder if they're going to make an announcement soon...

for the record, and on topic, I find it difficult to believe the OP could go wrong with the Kona. They are solid, well built bikes that have a proven record. They are a big enough company to take care of you should any issues arise, but that is highly unlikely (though not impossible). The Operator is not an entirely new design, simply a major refinement of their proven, reliable, solid system.

There is no doubt the Trek is a more refined product. But I question whether the OP, and for that matter the majority of the posters on this board, would be able to fully appreciate those differences, let alone take advantage of them.

If I were in the OP's shoes, the only way I would consider the Trek is if for some reason it was very close in price to the Kona, say a couple of hundred dollars. But that grand will get you lots of other necessities, especially if you are just getting into the sport and need a full-face helmet, armour, shoes, tires, a seasons pass etc... Of course, if you've got money to burn, then by all means....

However, I also agree with what many people here have suggested in that if you're on a budget, and just getting into the sport, there are lots of great used deals to be had on-line. I've been mountain biking for close to 20 years now, and into DH for only the past 5. My first DH bike was a clapped-out 2005 Norco A-Line, used. I had a blast on it. Now I have a 2008 Demo 8 that I also bought used. With the money I saved buying used, I was able to customize it a bit for my style/weight/preferences. And also buy a little bling for my other bikes (King Hubs )

So I'd suggest digging around on the forums a bit before heading to your shop to pick up the Kona!

 

[dropmachine]

Actually, I'd suggest NOT digging around on the forums, since it seems like forums are just a cesspool of crap these days.

If you can throw a leg over one, that goes a hell of a lot further than anything here will.

 

[demo 9]

Also could you explain why changing the design ever year has a benefit?

R&D my friend! I happen to like things that ride better, i would rather take a 2011 demo, than a 1999 stinky. That said, if i am happy with a bike, i wont dump it just to be cool and get RM repz, i rode a demo 9 up until last year, and happily at that, my riding changed, and i no longer felt it was good to keep it, but surely i know nothing, ill start looking for a karpiel with a super monster, time must have flown by, i must have missed the memmo when kona became a good company.

With your logic, we should all be on "refined" bighit 24s, M1s, Trek diesels, and 223s right? Better watch out 2011 bighit 24 coming out soon!

 

[jonKranked]

R&D my friend! I happen to like things that ride better, i would rather take a 2011 demo, than a 1999 stinky. That said, if i am happy with a bike, i wont dump it just to be cool and get RM repz, i rode a demo 9 up until last year, and happily at that, my riding changed, and i no longer felt it was good to keep it, but surely i know nothing, ill start looking for a karpiel with a super monster, time must have flown by, i must have missed the memmo when kona became a good company.

as someone who works in R&D, change just for the sake of change is RE-TAR-TED.

Hence why SC doesn't go by year model on the v10, they go by versions. They don't release it for sale until they've made enough revisions to justify introducing the new model.

In regards to your last comment...

With your logic, we should all be on "refined" bighit 24s, M1s, Trek diesels, and 223s right? Better watch out 2011 bighit 24 coming out soon!

people are riding refined m1's. granted the suspension design changed from the m1 to m3, but then the m3 was refined to the m6, and today we have the m9.

people are riding refined 223's. the 223 was refined into the 224, which is now the 224 evo. and they have been doing more refinement on this in the form of the 225 which some of their riders were racing lately.

what do these examples have in common? each model succeeded its predecessor, but not on an annual basis. they were released when they were ready, not to meet a particular model year and help drive repeat sales.


also, spesh does in fact still make bighits... they are a lower price point dh/fr bike not necessarily marketed toward the race crowd.

 

[captainspauldin]

also, spesh does in fact still make bighits... they are a lower price point dh/fr bike not necessarily marketed toward the race crowd.

Yeap, supposedly it's rides pretty nice also(according to Dirt). I remember seeing one of the race teams at diablo running them(something with GROM in it I forget), so it can't be that bad..

 

[Raingauge]

To the OP:

Go with the Kona they have good CS and build solid bikes. They’re not the flashiest but they get the job done; I’ve ridden a few (with and without floaters) and they ride better than some bikes and worse than others.

I've seen broken Konas, Treks, Specializeds, Evils, Giants, SCs, Rocky Mountains... Nothing is unbreakable.

I hope after 7 pages of this you’ve realized Demo9 has keyboard diarrhea. He’s apparently an expert on everything but bar height.

 

[dropmachine]

He should be an expert on bar heights soon, his mom bought him every bar height in the world.

And a teddy.

 

[slyfink]

I hope after 7 pages of this you’ve realized Demo9 has keyboard diarrhea. He’s apparently an expert on everything but bar height.

for the first time ever, I lol-ed at a forum post. I actually don't mind Demo9, and he seems to ride much better than I do (based on video evidence) but sometimes what he says is funny. and this is a funny way to say it!

 

[jonKranked]

Yeap, supposedly it's rides pretty nice also(according to Dirt). I remember seeing one of the race teams at diablo running them(something with GROM in it I forget), so it can't be that bad..

the last time they made a 24" big hit it was called the grom hit, which was 2008. marketed as a youth bike.

 

[IH8Rice]

the last time they made a 24" big hit it was called the grom hit, which was 2008. marketed as a youth bike.

he is talking about Grom Racing that raced on Big Hits.

http://www.gromracing.com/

 

[jonKranked]

^^^ that's it. But my comment was still somewhat related. derp.

 

[norbar]

R&D my friend!

With your logic, we should all be on "refined" bighit 24s, M1s, Trek diesels, and 223s right? Better watch out 2011 bighit 24 coming out soon!

Be honest. The main reason is Marketing. New demo isn't that much different from the 2010 one aside from the weight differance but they changed it because all the kids remember when they advertised them as Freeride huckbikes.
Oranges are a great example of refinement over marketing. Small tweaks over huge bombastic changes and selling out the remaining stock for less than half the price to piss off their existing customers.
Though sure some R&D comes with it but most of the "big" changes in bikes are to increase the hype not because the new design is 105% better (that doesn't apply to Ellsworth of course - their new designs allways are ) or rather it could be made as good with smaller changes but making a bike look "different" gives customers the idea it's super new rocket science space ship while if it looks old it could have jet engines and travel through space and time and be considered crap.

 

[captainspauldin]

he is talking about Grom Racing that raced on Big Hits.

yeap that's it, thanks.

 

[4130biker]

....selling out the remaining stock for less than half the price to piss off their existing customers.

I'd like to get on one of those! Where is this occuring? Those look like cool bikes and you don't see them too often here in the pnw.

 

[demo 9]

what do these examples have in common? each model succeeded its predecessor, but not on an annual basis. they were released when they were ready, not to meet a particular model year and help drive repeat sales.

yes, and that isnt the worst idea,look at spesh, demos change every 3-4 years. Maybe its just me, but i like nice/new tech. Bikes that (depending on what you choose) do something better than the rest. Whether you believe that of not is another story, but they argue the trek has awesome braking,and have proof. i have ridden a few (although mine isnt done yet) and i would believe that, the canfield rearwards, i believe that too. I havent seen kona make any claim (and no proof either) that their bike does anything other than exist. They have never tried (AFAIK) any other kind of suspension. If you go on their website, its a bunch of hardtails and all the fully bikes are linkage driven single pivots, a new bike at Kona HQ consists of changing the geometry and reducing or adding travel. Hell, the best thing to happen to their bikes wasnt even designed by them.

I am not advocating change for the sake of change, but they have been using the same suspension design for over 20 years, the only thing it proved, is that they dont do research, they didnt get a bad image for nothing, i see this whole thread similar to huffy saying "you know what, we are serious now, forget the past, this time it is different" While making the same ****ty bike with a single tweak. Cant speak for the rest of you, but i wouldnt buy in. Anybody buying the new jamis BAM?

 

[cableguy]

New demo isn't that much different from the 2010 one aside from the weight differance

Seems different to me (enough to make a "difference"). Aside from the looks (which I like much better) and the weight difference which you noted, you have a longer stroke shock and 150mm rear. Plus more clearance for your heels. I have seen more of 2011 Demo's here in Socal than any other bike (among new DH bikes).

 

[qikss]

Seems different to me (enough to make a "difference"). Aside from the looks (which I like much better) and the weight difference which you noted, you have a longer stroke shock and 150mm rear. Plus more clearance for your heels. I have seen more of 2011 Demo's here in Socal than any other bike (among new DH bikes).

+1 nEW demos everywhere here...

 

[IH8Rice]

the new Demo is a lot different than the prior gen ones

 

[NoUseForAName]

He's a newbie DH rider - he doesn't need a Demo (or whatever else is cool this week), he needs bang for his buck so he get some use out of the bike.

Kona + Leatt + Decent helmet + lift pass = Win.

Bikes aren't bad these days.

 

[norbar]

I'd like to get on one of those! Where is this occuring? Those look like cool bikes and you don't see them too often here in the pnw.

Intense did that with the ss1 and m6. Now GT Furies pop out at very good prices. Same for Devinci Willsons.

 

[dropmachine]

UNINFORMED BLUBBERING STUPIDITY etc...

You need to get smarter. Or stop posting. One or the other. You're making my head hurt.

You are the prototypical muppet the industry relies on. Whatever marketing crap it ****s out, you stuff down your throat with two hands.

Let me ask you this. When a company comes out with a new design, claiming its lighter/ faster/ more efficient/ will get you laid, and then two years later completely changes everything but claims the same thing yet again, how does that make you feel? Kinda makes you wonder doesn't it?

I'm not defending Konas use of the faux bar, I am a VPP fan myself. But they found a design that works for them, and their customers, and they continue to use it and refine it. Just because it ain't the latest and greatest marketing fluff to hit doesn't mean it doesn't work. If you could get past the idea that its the bike and not the rider, you'd see that. The Kona design is simple, works, and offers far better value than most.

Besides, your argument is pretty stupid if you can't see that your beloved Canfeild brothers are using the same system they always have, just modified and refined over the years, JUST LIKE KONA DOES. They;ve done what looks to be a great job on the new Jedi, but really its very similar to the last bike, with some new tricks.

Then to have the audacity to sit here and praise Specialized for finally producing a DH bike with the same standards the rest of the industry has adopted at least 5 years ago...jesus man. They didn't push anything with the new Demo, they just refined it and caught up with a 150mm rear. About time. Oh, and the same suspension system they've used for what, 25 years?

Maybe you should stop holding your breath when you fap to whatever the newest tech blubbering is. It seems to be affecting your brains ability to see through BS.

 

[norbar]

Seems different to me (enough to make a "difference"). Aside from the looks (which I like much better) and the weight difference which you noted, you have a longer stroke shock and 150mm rear. Plus more clearance for your heels. I have seen more of 2011 Demo's here in Socal than any other bike (among new DH bikes).

Yeah because the longer stroke shock will mean thaaaat much now. Also the old spec wheel solution was much better than the 150mm and as stiff. What you mentioned will NOT be noticable by the rider.
If you mentioned slightly changed leverage curve or that you like an even longer TT I would understand but let's be honest you've bought it because it's cool and new

Though I'm not atacking the bike in any way. Demo is a capable bike, even when I think it looks like a fat man sat on it. Simply the only big differance from riders POV is the weight. Others are minor tweaks.

 

[jonKranked]

hey Jeff, do you have any pictures of the 1989 kona stinky? that was a sweet azz bike

 

[dropmachine]

No, I wish I did but all Konas break. Then then they murder your family. Then they spray your friends with teh aidz. Then they go on the internet and erase all trace of themselves. Yes, even back in 1989.

 

[Inclag]

yes, and that isnt the worst idea,look at spesh, demos change every 3-4 years. Maybe its just me, but i like nice/new tech. Bikes that (depending on what you choose) do something better than the rest. Whether you believe that of not is another story, but they argue the trek has awesome braking,and have proof. i have ridden a few (although mine isnt done yet) and i would believe that, the canfield rearwards, i believe that too. I havent seen kona make any claim (and no proof either) that their bike does anything other than exist. They have never tried (AFAIK) any other kind of suspension. If you go on their website, its a bunch of hardtails and all the fully bikes are linkage driven single pivots, a new bike at Kona HQ consists of changing the geometry and reducing or adding travel. Hell, the best thing to happen to their bikes wasnt even designed by them.

I am not advocating change for the sake of change, but they have been using the same suspension design for over 20 years, the only thing it proved, is that they dont do research, they didnt get a bad image for nothing, i see this whole thread similar to huffy saying "you know what, we are serious now, forget the past, this time it is different" While making the same ****ty bike with a single tweak. Cant speak for the rest of you, but i wouldnt buy in. Anybody buying the new jamis BAM?

Marketing people must fap fap fap to this guy

 

[demo 9]

im so angry!

Yes, spesh did finally catch up, co-incidentally i bought 1 for that reason, canfield brothers use the same design, however, for where i ride, that is a good design, kona had a great design back then, in fact a stab was 1 of the bikes i wanted when i got into riding, but times have changed, so have the bikes, except them. Spesh made the demo for 2004 (i had 1 until last year) it was good, needed alot of work, they made the 07-10 demo which i skipped because of a 135 rear end, they now started the 11+ demo, i am back on board, they all may say FSR, but they are different bikes, i dont see much change in the konas. I think canfield has a great design, i would like to see more companies do this, however that isnt up to me, its up to them.

Can i please get 1 more angry rant

 

[jonKranked]

No, I wish I did but all Konas break. Then then they murder your family. Then they spray your friends with teh aidz. Then they go on the internet and erase all trace of themselves. Yes, even back in 1989.

man, they must've designed some kick ass bikes with MS-DOS