[demo 9]

^ you make it seem like i have no idea what geometry i like, i am perfectly happy with my setups (minus the bar height on some of my DS bikes) I said that meaning that i wont say a XXXXX sucks because its too slack FOR ME. I run my forks pretty steep, when i slack them out, i get no advantage, this is why i dont.

As for rearward wheelpaths, in my case it isnt marketing, i ride a place thats flat, and incredibly rocky, i have had more than enough bikes with vert/forwards wheelpaths to be able to tell the difference. I tried throughout the summer taking "race" runs on different bikes (that i own and ride frequently) I found that they all were significantly slower, and way rougher. Its not a perfect science, but if i can tell a big difference in my speed, i wont just get another bike because sam hill has 1.

If we really want to start the wheelpath thing again, ill voice my opinion of why i like rearwards. It slows you down less, it also wont buck you, it rebounds IN and "pulls" at your tire, rather than pushing out out like a forward wheelpath. It is supposed to turn like ****, and i will agree with you on that, but at least on a jedi, i dont notice it. (and i did quite well racing slalom on it) If the jedi was longer, it would be worse. I dont have formulas, but i dont think that my opinion is that far off. I am sure you know more, as you say ur an engineer (and you probably arent making that up)

Your opinion that poor braking is good because it tells you not to slow down has me somewhat confused, not sure where you are going with that, but feel free to elaborate.

Is a jedi on the top of the WC, no, would sam hill still be at the top of the WC if he had a jedi-yes, what bout a kona, yes probably that too.

Edit, for those of you who think i am part of the jedi fan club, not so much, however, i believe it does have quite the ride quality and that the haters should at least try 1, the chainstretch is offset by a pulleywheel, i DO think it has 2.5 inches of rearwards, you notice it when you ride

 

[mullet_dew]

I dislike the kona (and i guess all konas) for a few reasons. 1 of them being brake jack, yes a floater can fix it. However it does not come with one, and one can argue that its not that great since it needs to get 1 in the first place, and that if it was designed better it wouldnt need 1, but thats just merely an opinion.

I also am not a huge fan of the wheelpath (admittedly, im no engineer) It is a single pivot, starting nearly horizontal, working its way rearweards than working its way forward. (from a tad under 9-11 on a clock) I dont see this as ideal, as i would rather see verticle or rearwards the whole time, especially deeper in the travel.

You realize the Operator has a higher main pivot that the Session, giving it more rearward axle movement? Also, your Wildcard has a main pivot in almost the same place, and your Killswitch has zero rearward axle movement. science, lol
I'm done posting in this thread, pointing out retarded logic in demo9's posts is like taking candy from a baby.

 

[demo 9]

You realize the Operator has a higher main pivot that the Session, giving it more rearward axle movement? Also, your Wildcard has a main pivot in almost the same place, and your Killswitch has zero rearward axle movement. science, lol
I'm done posting in this thread, pointing out retarded logic in demo9's posts is like taking candy from a baby.

I dont race the trek,in fact, its not even done being built, i got a great deal on it used from a friend. nor is a killswitch or banshee a DH bike. A slalom bike would never benefit from rearwards. How many rocks do you think are on a DS course, or the local dirt jumps? Are you retarded?

 

[Inclag]

 

[William42]

ugh. I just wrote up a length review on my session and on my roommates stab, but RM decided to delete 90% of it. My conclusion was that the stab is awesome, the operator should be a more refined version, and I like my trek more. I'm too lazy to write that out again

 

[Yowie]

Hey demo 9 I have been riding for about 28 years and the whole time my wheels have been round. Is that bad R&D too? looks like someone at caveman inc got lazy.

Change for the sake of change is stupid.

 

[demo 9]

Hey demo 9 I have been riding for about 28 years and the whole time my wheels have been round. Is that bad R&D too? looks like someone at caveman inc got lazy.

Change for the sake of change is stupid.

Great first post

 

[cableguy]

ugh. I just wrote up a length review on my session and on my roommates stab, but RM decided to delete 90% of it. My conclusion was that the stab is awesome, the operator should be a more refined version, and I like my trek more. I'm too lazy to write that out again

Why did RM edit it down? Did you post on MTBR too?

 

[jonKranked]

In fact, if you ever actually mapped out a wheelpath, you'd be amazed at how similar they all are. Even your precious rearward wheelpath is barely rearward.

^^^this. I'd be really curious to see how this stacked up.

It'd be a relatively simple comparison. get an xy plot of the change in axle location through the travel. start them all at the origin (0). then just compare the difference in the x component at the end points of the wheel path (bottomed out). I'd be willing to bet that for 90% of bikes, the difference (horizontal) is an inch or less.

 

[demo 9]

^^^this. I'd be really curious to see how this stacked up.

It'd be a relatively simple comparison. get an xy plot of the change in axle location through the travel. start them all at the origin (0). then just compare the difference in the x component at the end points of the wheel path (bottomed out). I'd be willing to bet that for 90% of bikes, the difference (horizontal) is an inch or less.

yes, i agree with this, however, it is why i support what canfield and superco are doing, as well as brooklyn. Canfield claims 2.5 inches rearward, their products have been innovative and great so far, and i have no reason to believe they are lying. It rides like it has it, no reason not to believe it, idk how to plot it, but if somebody does it, send it over my way

 

[jackalope]

^

I suspect you're right, altho some may claim that the 1/2" difference makes it ZOMG awesome in teh gnar (otherwise described as "east coast rox").

EDIT - Sniped by Demo...And I swear Jon, I did not change my original statement.

 

[no skid marks]

I can't believe I'm wasting my time replying to this(or even reading it for that matter)Yeah, must be hard for you, being so superior, don't step outside, you might get a shock.



Brake jack is a good thing. Brake Jack is lame, very very lame. Brake squat is good. But I'm guessing you meant that, just so tempting to make childish low blows like you seem to revel in beating on demo 9. Keep the sh!t on topic.It tells you when you are riding the brake. Let go of it and either feather/pump the brakes, or go fast and shut it down later. Don't just ride the brakes. You don't go down a mountain pass in a car with the brakes on the whole wayI do if it's steep enough and the gears aren't holding me, this aint the 60s., a bike is no different. It is a good gauge to teach proper braking. I've ridden bikes with and without floating brake adapters. They add unneccessary weight and (usually) create added noise too without providing the rider with any benefit.They do provide the rider with huge bennefits, they keep the rear suspension active(to what level depends on floater set up). But yes, the weigh something, and some people prefer the bike to pack up under brakes, helps keep consistent geo with the diving fork, and provides feel and control of the rear grip.
You have been swayed by marketing under the pretense of "science" You fail to see WHYTake a good look at yourself. How many rearward bikes have YOU actually ridden? let alone actually owned so that your brain can retrain itself to put your bodies weight in different places when needed.. Correct, a single pivot bike arcs forwardDepending where the pivot is. Get it right if coming on like you are.. Failure on your part is to determine why that is bad. Marketing has told you that is bad. Reality proves otherwise.Your reality, probably very peer group and "marketing" driven. How many world cup wins have been on rearward arcing bikes?How many riders have been on them. The Lahar smashed the JNR Worlds, can't think of many other rearward bikes raced. Most bikes wheel paths are moving backwards if you care to take note of the designs, not just the marketing. Your Jedi has a rearward axle path. You believe the rouge marketing that that is a superior design. If it was superior, everyone would be riding it and it would be on every podium. Grow up dude. Most brands don't have rearward wheel paths because it conflicts with their other bike marketing. With such a mass of other bikes Vs rearward, it makes it hard for the concept to be accepted.It excels in certain situations and fails miserably in others. I don't like rearward axle paths. They make the bike corner like sh*tIf you ride it wrong.. You are the type of person that believes specialized has a vertical axle path (like they claim). As an engineer (or any third grader) will tell you, no matter how you do it, when you rotate a parallelagram linkage, it still creates an arc. But the horst link can lesen the arc, I'm nt sure of the wheel path of the specialized bikes, but with the axle far from the horst link, you could make the arc quite large.

The Kona's design is proven to work and has been instituted on hundreds of bike designs. Even the last DH bike Trek produced used a similar wheel path. In fact, if you ever actually mapped out a wheelpath, you'd be amazed at how similar they all are. Even your precious rearward wheelpath is barely rearward. A derrailur can only allow for so much chain growth.A deraileur is irrelevant in nearly all high single pivot/rearward axle path bikes now days, as they all have idlers or gearboxs.
World cup riders are stronger and far superior to most riders, and have the skills to maintain their bodies weight floating above the ground using the bike and it's suspension where needed, otherwise dragging it skipping and bucking benneath them with their mass and momentum overpowering it, and using the forks more than most riders do, letting the back skip more. Still, if you raised a rider on rearward axle paths, and he had the same skill as another rider on a vertical/forward axle path bike, I'd bet the rearward guy would be faster.
Demo9, people dislike you online because you flaunt your bikes, ask dumb questions, then run your mouth like you are gods gift to cycling.Use PMs for this sh!t, don't make personal attacks from your high horse. I could care less, but I've been amazed (as an engineer) how you drink the marketing Kool-aid.I can't believe the irony here. The fact is, if 90% of the riders on this forum traded in their bikes for a 1999 Kona stinky and took the left over money and spent it on a riding camp/lessons, they would be much better riders than trying to have the latest and greatest parts.Very very true. Suspension set up also plays a huge part over the latest and greatest hyped bike. However, the racer in me enjoys the support of the industry that people like you contribute, so if it means I get to travel to races because you think you need a new bike every month, than so be it.

-KT

Sell many tickets on yourself?

 

[IH8Rice]

 

[intensified]

I am new to DH and I have a small "hook-up" at my local Trek dealer.

Main question, is the Session 8 worth the extra $1k over the Kona Operator DH? Both bikes have the same forks and rear shocks.

What would you choose?

Thanks!

simple question and the answer is a riot after reading this, it must be winter here. Anyways, if you asked this in July it might have been less bs, so dont think the crew is that bad. Roadies can be less critical than this, dh is the shizzle though. Go get what you can afford and get it dialed in and rock on, I can't say enough good things about a dh new bike.

 

[P.T.W]

Has anyone noticed that just about every thread on RM that's turned to poo lately has one thing in common??? Can anyone guess what that is ????
Oh and you'd think that someone who owns 15 bikes would be able to afford a helmet that's not over 5 years old, and some goggles maybe???

 

[demo 9]

Has anyone noticed that just about every thread on RM that's turned to poo lately has one thing in common??? Can anyone guess what that is ????
Oh and you'd think that someone who owns 15 bikes would be able to afford a helmet that's not over 5 years old, and some goggles maybe???

I guess 6 rounds to 15, what kinda math are they teaching you over there? Sorry my helmet isnt up to date and i dont use goggles, Please dont be mean, im just really sensitive and insecure and talk trash on the internet, it really gets me irritated when somebody uses a different helmet than me, and no goggles! OMFG! But hey, there is good news, your getting your post count up!

 

[Udi]

who does KONA have? Robbie bourdon?

You probably missed a few posts in this thread mentioning a certain two-time DH world champion that rode for them.

The same Kona that everyone hates, owns 2004 and 2005 in the hall of fame.

 

[toodles]

No-one seriously gives two ****s about brake squat or jack. Buy the kona and save the money for gear and lift tickets. If you wanted to spend the money on the Trek, go nuts. But there's better offerings around for that money.

 

[Mo(n)arch]

Since I ride a session, i would say go with a Trek but a used one, because they ride so damn good. And because they are so popular, there are a few used ones out there. And with the saved money buy some lift tickets and ride as much as you can!

 

[no skid marks]

No-one seriously gives two ****s about brake squat or jack. Buy the kona and save the money for gear and lift tickets. If you wanted to spend the money on the Trek, go nuts. But there's better offerings around for that money.

If the guys new to DH, I think the Treks virtual floating brake will help him learn faster, as he'll be able to hold lines in the rough when braking easier.
Yep, I'm sayig the Trek is a better plow bike while braking anyway.

 

[Evo.]

I have been riding XC / All-Mountain for about 9 years. I have limited experience with DH/FR. I have been to Snowshoe, WV and rented a Kona stinky. I have also been to 7 springs downhill park and rented a Jamis Dakar Bam 1. To me, both bikes felt fine but really, WTF do I know right now?

I figure the best thing for me is to learn on the less expensive bike and figure out what I really want/need. After learning more about DH/FR, I will have a better idea what will work best for me and I will be more flexible with my budget.

I decided to go with the Operator FR not DH. I upgraded to a 2011 RC2 DH Totem, 2011 X.9 derailleur / shifter, and Orange Chromag Fubars OSX. My LBS also hooked me up with some tubes, derailleur hanger and some brake levers. Biggest difference between the Operator DH and FR is the dual crown fork. The color on the FR looks better too (IMO).

Out the door for $2900 thanks to my LBS.

Now, I have money for some shoes, a new full face, leatt brace (if I want), season pass to my local park, and a summer trip to Diablo!

I still managed to learn a lot from reading all the posts.

Thanks again for the advice

 

[daisycutter]

"I still managed to learn a lot from reading all the posts."

how?

 

[Evo.]

"I still managed to learn a lot from reading all the posts."

how?

There was some informative information in this thread for a noob. Plus, I was looking stuff up when I was unfamiliar with what people were talking about.

There was some wasted time reading the arguing, but I try and focus on the positive and ignore that part.

 

[captainspauldin]

I figure the best thing for me is to learn on the less expensive bike and figure out what I really want/need. After learning more about DH/FR, I will have a better idea what will work best for me and I will be more flexible with my budget.

I decided to go with the Operator FR not DH. I upgraded to a 2011 RC2 DH Totem, 2011 X.9 derailleur / shifter, and Orange Chromag Fubars OSX. My LBS also hooked me up with some tubes, derailleur hanger and some brake levers. Biggest difference between the Operator DH and FR is the dual crown fork. The color on the FR looks better too (IMO).

Honestly, I think you made the best choice. Session is nice and all, but I doubt you would be able to really benefit from the extra money spent on it, you're better off with the extra G in your pocket to spend on other stuff. My first FR/DH bike was somewhat similar(Transition Dirtbag w/totem), and I def. felt like it was a great bike to learn on.

 

[KavuRider]

I decided to go with the Operator FR not DH. I upgraded to a 2011 RC2 DH Totem, 2011 X.9 derailleur / shifter, and Orange Chromag Fubars OSX. My LBS also hooked me up with some tubes, derailleur hanger and some brake levers. Biggest difference between the Operator DH and FR is the dual crown fork. The color on the FR looks better too (IMO).

Out the door for $2900 thanks to my LBS.

Awesome, congrats!
Make sure to post pics!!

 

[slyfink]

Awesome, congrats!
Make sure to post pics!!

x2

I'm with him. congrats

 

[FlipFantasia]

enjoy your bike!

 

[4130biker]

Sounds like a sweet set up-- x3 on the pics!

 

[demo 9]

Chrome?

 

[Evo.]

its actually polished silver is what Kona calls it. You can see a better photo of it in the link below.

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/kona-operator-2011.html

 

[NoUseForAName]

You are the type of person that believes specialized has a vertical axle path (like they claim).

They don't claim that the Demo has a vertical axle path. 'Almost vertical but moves forward at the end of travel.'

That's been the line since 2006.

Good job buying the Kona Evo, sounds like a nice switch up that you got done and a great price for a decent bike.

 

[4130biker]

Ok, I have a couple questions about the operator-
Is the geometry between the dh and fr models the same? It appears that way on thier website, but I would be suprised if they are.
Also, how does the headtube junction look in person? It looks so short in the pictures, I'm just curious if anyone has impressions after seeing it in person.
Also, I found dirt review mentioned here on the site:
http://www.konaworld.com/documents/Operator_dirt_2011.pdf

 

[slyfink]

Ok, I have a couple questions about the operator-
Is the geometry between the dh and fr models the same? It appears that way on thier website, but I would be suprised if they are.
Also, how does the headtube junction look in person? It looks so short in the pictures, I'm just curious if anyone has impressions after seeing it in person.
Also, I found dirt review mentioned here on the site:
http://www.konaworld.com/documents/Operator_dirt_2011.pdf

all the details on the Operator are in the pinkbike article that Evo linked to.

 

[4130biker]

Indeed:
The Operator FR uses the same frame as the Supreme, but with a more freeride friendly parts selection that looks burly enough to survive a summer in Whistler bike part under any grom

Anyone see the headtube in person, am I the only one that thinks it looks like a small junction from the pictures?

And holy crap! 35lb claimed wieght on the supreme, crazy

 

[IH8Rice]

I

And holy crap! 35lb claimed wieght on the supreme, crazy

article says 38lbs for a small. chart says 35

 

[slyfink]

I just noticed the tags... took me a while but

 

[Evo.]

Indeed:
The Operator FR uses the same frame as the Supreme, but with a more freeride friendly parts selection that looks burly enough to survive a summer in Whistler bike part under any grom

Anyone see the headtube in person, am I the only one that thinks it looks like a small junction from the pictures?

And holy crap! 35lb claimed wieght on the supreme, crazy

According to Kona, the headtube length on the small is 3.9 and 4.7 on the large. I got the large...

In that picture of the Supreme on pinkbike, the headtube does look small. I am thinking it is a small size frame, with the 3.9 headtube.

I won't see mine in person until about two weeks.

 

[4130biker]

Right on- I didnt know diff ht lengths were used on diff frame sizes. Thanks!

 

[NoUseForAName]

My med Supreme weighed 39lbs with Shimano M647 pedals and stock components.

The headtube is short as heck, but the way the tubes join it doesn't look flexy (!) at all. I don't subscribe to the bars at axle level, so i've got 25mm of spacer below my top crown, but then a Chromag director and OSX low rise bar, so it's still pretty low. I may go lower as i get settled on it. Nice to have the option.

I'm going to weigh it with my chromag gear this afternoon, may post pics.

 

[dhr-racer]

My med Supreme weighed 39lbs with Shimano M647 pedals and stock components.

The headtube is short as heck, but the way the tubes join it doesn't look flexy (!) at all. I don't subscribe to the bars at axle level, so i've got 25mm of spacer below my top crown, but then a Chromag director and OSX low rise bar, so it's still pretty low. I may go lower as i get settled on it. Nice to have the option.

I'm going to weigh it with my chromag gear this afternoon, may post pics.

Can you post a pic? im waiting on my Med but have yet to see an actual pic of the medium, i have a small FR in the shop right now and didnt think it looked flexy at all