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2013 Demo 8 - 135mm vs 150mm?

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by vikingboy, Jun 8, 2012.

  1. vikingboy

    vikingboy Monkey

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    I held off on buying a Demo8 recently because of the rumours of the carbon model being round the corner which is now confirmed. I'd be interested in any thoughts between the advantages and disadvantages of the 135 vs 150mm rear ends.

    Advantage of 150 rear end is I could use a standard 9/10speed cassette which would make riding to and from the trails easier for me.
    Disadvantage of 135mm rear is that I think I'd be stuck into using the proprietary specialized hub or possibly wheel.
    Disadvantage of the 135mm rear is that I'd have to buy the full team replica bike and then sell off the bits I wouldnt use (probably just front forks, cranks, brakes) which makes it less cost effective than just the sworks frameset.
    Advantage of 135 rear end is I can use a smaller front cog which would improve ground clearance especially in the lower setting

    would be interested to hear any other thoughts which I may not have considered, thanks in adv
     
    #1 -   Jun 8, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2012

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  2. Wa-Aw

    Wa-Aw Monkey

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    If you shell out $10k for a literal world cup race bike and still feel the need to make further modifications, you're gonna have a bad time.

    Unsure about the rear wheel interface, but if it's 12x135 if you can get hubs for those easy. If the cassette space is smaller for their smaller range cassette (kinda doubt it), you can probably compensate with spacers. But I don't see the point since you're probably going to die from running 135 on a DH bike anyway, it's suicide!

    Edit: I don't see why you're averse to the whole 135mm-7 speed-32t chainring idea though. I'm glad they pulled it off and set it on the market. It's absolutely brilliant. The small chainring thing would probably not work as well with other suspension systems out there but you're saving a load of clearance with that. A 32t chainring paired with a 25t on the rear is likely (don't quote me on this) to be equivalent to a 36t on the front and a 32t in the rear. That's about as standard as it gets. I'd be more worried about getting replacement 9t cogs.
     
    #2 -   Jun 8, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2012
  3. Optimax150

    Optimax150 Monkey

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    The article on pinkbike stated the team replica version is 135mm. The standard one , is your regular 150mm.
     
    #3 -   Jun 8, 2012
  4. vikingboy

    vikingboy Monkey

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    From Pinkbikes article, I understand it as follows:- (http://www.pinkbike.com/news/specialized-demo-8-carbon-2013-first-look.html)

    Team replica: FACT 11m carbon, Magnesium link, 12*135 rear,
    S-works frameset: is FACT 11m carbon, Magnesium link?, 12x150 rear
    Demo 8 I: FACT 10m carbon, Aluminum link, 12x150 rear

    The only way to get the 12x135 is the buy the team replica.
    The rear axle is machined down to facilitate the 7 speed, 9-26 tooth rear cassette and supporting 32 front ring.
     
    #4 -   Jun 8, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2012
  5. ianjenn

    ianjenn Turbo Monkey

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    Why don't U buy the non team frame pull apart a 9SPD rear cassette and space it out ala "7SPD" and buy a 32 tooth up front and still use a 150 rear hub?
     
    #5 -   Jun 8, 2012
  6. LOPAN

    LOPAN Chimp

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    i think the frame spacing is 150mm on both frames but the 9t drive takes up the
    15mm difference in the spacing on the s-works complete bike
     
    #6 -   Jun 8, 2012
  7. vikingboy

    vikingboy Monkey

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    Its a different back end on the team replica.

    "It [Team replica] is assembled around the very same carbon frame that is ridden by Hill and Brosnan, incorporating the identical shock eyelet cam that allows the rider access to the same geometry used by the team, as well as the slimmer 12 x 135mm rear end spacing that they requested due to its ability to not get hung up on tight sections of the track."
     
    #7 -   Jun 8, 2012
  8. 4130biker

    4130biker PM me about Tantrum Cycles!

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    Last I heard it was an actual capreo freehub body mated to a custom dt Swiss hub. Capreo (9t) cassettes are easy enough to get. The only thing proprietary you're linked to is the hub, but in a pinch a regular 135 hub w a bigger front ring should (but you may want to ask spec) work. Also Canfield already makes 9t ready hubs in 135. My biggest concern is the freehub going bad because so far, those aren't available without buying a capreo hub ($85). May change now with a couple dh hubs on the market.
     
    #8 -   Jun 8, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2012
  9. 4130biker

    4130biker PM me about Tantrum Cycles!

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    This would work, as long as you don't need taller gears...
     
    #9 -   Jun 8, 2012
  10. Sandwich

    Sandwich Pig my fish!
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    wouldn't 135 rr with 83mm BB give you a crappy chainline? I wouldn't mind seeing a shift back to 68/73 for a smaller Q factor, but that's just me.
     
  11. jonKranked

    jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

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    i think they were able to pull it off b/c the hub is spaced for 7spd, not 9.
     
  12. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    Nah, it actually works correctly because they use an asymmetrical rearend which moves the entire hub towards the driveside of the frame. So you actually got that crappy chainline on the older frames that had the offset 135 rearend with a normal 73mm BB shell (I know because I'd always wear out chain rings really fast on both bighits and demo 8's of old)... however with an 83mm BB this issue is corrected so you get the benefit of a zero-dish rear wheel (like you would with regular 150x12 spacing) and also the correct chainline.
     
  13. Sandwich

    Sandwich Pig my fish!
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    Neat!
     
  14. vikingboy

    vikingboy Monkey

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    great info guys, thank you. Will be interesting to see how the pricing falls on the frameset vs team-rep for sure.
     
  15. Huck Banzai

    Huck Banzai Turbo Monkey

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    How does the wider rear get 'hung up on tight sections of track'? Sure, its ~1/2" wider - are these guys getting their derailleurs, discs, or such caught on something? I dont get it, your feet sit much wider and mostly on the same place as the axles - I dont see how this can really be an issue.

    So enlighten me please! (or proceed to attack it if its silly.)
     
  16. Nagaredama

    Nagaredama Turbo Monkey

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    If the S-Works frame is only 50 grams lighter I don't see the point. Not much weight savings for the additional cost (whatever it might be). Most of that weight savings would be from the magnesium link.
     
    #16 -   Jun 8, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2012
  17. slyfink

    slyfink Turbo Monkey

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    This might not be enlightening, caus' it's based solely on my opinion, but a 1/2" is a 1/2". You've never bent a derailleur or smacked a disc before? I sure as sh!t have, and I'd take a 1/2" if it was available and had no other detriments...
     
  18. marshalolson

    marshalolson Turbo Monkey

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    agree!

    things to measure:

    outside width of fork

    outside width of cranks @ BB spindle

    outside width of pedals

    outside width of 150mm frame @ axle.
     
  19. 4130biker

    4130biker PM me about Tantrum Cycles!

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    I can see the rear being able to drag in areas where your pedals may not (slyfink explains it better)
    Rare, yes, but I suppose progress goes in small increments.

    You do bring up a good point- how often do you guys think pedals catch in corners? (feet flat) I'm just wondering if a more narrow q-factor could be a good thing for clearance when the bike is leaned over, especially with bikes becoming lower and lower these days.

    edit: I do find it hilarious that everyone clamored for their 150 rear ends, spec gave it to them, then the spec. big boys went to 135.
     
    #19 -   Jun 8, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2012
  20. Dwdrums00

    Dwdrums00 Monkey

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    If I recall correctly, when Hill was originally signed to Spesh the production demo 8 had a 135mm rear. One of the first things he requested on his Demo 8 prototype was a 150mm rear and a slacker seat post angle. I find it very strange that he has since gone back to a 135mm rear.
     
  21. Sandwich

    Sandwich Pig my fish!
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    Maybe it's a way to push their 9t driver initiative? Get the DH crowd to think they need it, then it filters to the AM crowd?
     
  22. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    Must have gotten tired of 'getting hung up in tight sections'. I mean if there's one thing you can say about sam hill, it's that he's known for getting hung up in tight sections

    And by 'hung up', I mean 'floating over'.


    The first time I ever rode a 150mm rear end, I ripped a derailleur off riding a line I've ridden 100+ times cleanly. The whole 'but your fork and feet are wider' argument is silly, unless all your literally just ride in a straight line with your wheels on the ground at all times. (hint: you don't). We all PUT our rear wheel in places while riding. It doesn't always follow your feet, rolling on the ground in a straight line. If that were the case, you'd rip off pedals only and never derailleurs.

    That said, everyone gets used to what they're riding and you learn what works and doesn't. It's not that big of a deal. I haven't knocked a single derailleur on either of the 150mm bikes I've owned.

    That 135 offset rear end spec has always done is awesome. You get a narrower footprint and a stronger wheel than a traditional dish. Whether or not it's a big deal in what bike you buy is simple: IT ISN'T
     
  23. frorider

    frorider Monkey

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    what's the flange spacing on this special rear hub?

    in 29er land it's not uncommon to build a rugged AM wheel with a Hope or Hadley single speed 135 hub, and cram 6 or 7 cogs on the short freehub body. definitely makes the wheel stiffer/stronger.

    hadn't heard of these Capreo cogs.
     
  24. NoUseForAName

    NoUseForAName Monkey

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    That's because they are from an obscure folding bike/small wheel bike groupset that shimano did about 10+ years ago.

    P.S you need a special lockring tool too.
     
  25. wood booger

    wood booger Monkey

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    Try and clear some things up:

    The 135 spaced carbon Demo uses a "normal dish" rear wheel, as in it is dished. It is 135X12 so you can use lots of hubs. I just drilled out standard 135mm DT swiss end caps to be 12mm and fits like a charm.

    Chain line if you don't use the special 7 spd micro hub/cassette setup is less that optimal. I am running 9 spd w/ normal DT 240 hub and 36t front ring and the top two gears (largest cogs) pedal fine, but have a tendency to skip if you back pedal. Works fine for me, but not up to "production standards".

    I like the fact that the rear is narrower and does not get hung up as easy going through tight sections (yes you do notice it), but I really like the fact that my heels (w/ 5.10's) do not rub any longer. With the older generation Demo (135mm also) I had major heel rub issues, to the point where I was wearing through all the paint and getting into the alloy quite quickly. I believe that the 150mm rear is also quite a bit narrower at the heel contact area compared to the previous generation Demo (2010).

    The carbon frame takes about 400 grams off the alloy frame. I have one built up w/ steel coils front and rear, carbon XO cranks, light brakes, and SX casing Butchers it comes in at 34.25 lbs. With real tires you should still be under 36 lbs quite easily. With air shocks front/rear it could be ridiculous!:eek:

    Hope that helps.
     
  26. Christiaan

    Christiaan Monkey

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    It is not, it is a normal 135x12mm rear dt 240s hub, with a custom cassette body
     
  27. RUFUS

    RUFUS e-douche of the year

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    :think:
     
  28. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    The first 150mm bike I ever rode wasn't one that I owned.


    SCIENCE!!
     
  29. Orangesicle

    Orangesicle Chimp

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    I read on Bike Radar (or somewhere newsy with pics, not a forum speculation...) that the Demo 8 team replica frame in Fact 11 will be available in the 150 rear spacing. Been thinking this route would be the way for me and gives me the option of using the Canfield Capreo specific hub if I want to commit to it. And use all my existing parts. No word on what will be available when. But ran a few ratio comparisons on a 32 (also 33) vs. 36 front ring.
    Very nice. I think for dh 7 speeds is more than enough. The gearing is more widely spaced than my 11-23 Dura Ace cogset and I can't remember how many times I've thought "down three here, up two here, full drop here" while hammering the bike.
    But still, the narrow rear triangle sounds so derailleur friendly. And chainstay friendly. Might have to pony up for that alone.
     
  30. Verskis

    Verskis Monkey

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    Specialized's marketing works wonderfully, now half of the people here really think they need this "new" rear spacing to be able to ride tight tracks. Just wait until they make the BB narrower so you can rail corners that much more leaned without hitting the pedals, otherwise you will end up buying both versions :D

    To people that want 7 gears with greater difference between the gears than typical DH cassette offers, why not just get regular 32-11 or 28-11 cassette and take two of the largest cogs out? That's what I did, now I regularly use most of the cogs (though 11t is needed quite rarely around here) but don't need to dump several gears at one time.
    If I remember the sizes right, I have now 7 speed 25-11 cassette. Or it could be 23-11, not sure.
     
    #30 -   Jun 8, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2012
  31. NoUseForAName

    NoUseForAName Monkey

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    Because that doesn't allow you to run a 32t chainring for increased ground clearance without sacrificing your top gear. You obviously don't understand the 'why' of this at all.
     
  32. Huck Banzai

    Huck Banzai Turbo Monkey

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    Happens to me all the time.........

    http://youtu.be/2IlHgbOWj4o
     
  33. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    I stand very much corrected if that's the case, and IMO that's a pretty stupid design. I think if you have to use 135mm on a DH bike, the offset rearend combined with an 83mm shell is the way to go. Having a dished wheel and crappy chainline is going back in time a long way now! Is the wheel/hub perfectly zero in dish if you do use their 7spd setup (custom hub?) or is it still dished?

    If what you say is true, then if I were the OP I'd definitely be getting the 150mm frame. Unless their factory 135 7spd setup has a perfect chainline and zero dish wheel still - in which case I'd still probably avoid it because of all the nonstandard components.
     
  34. Sandwich

    Sandwich Pig my fish!
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    but 4 teeth of chainring clearance!
     
  35. Verskis

    Verskis Monkey

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    Yes, I understand the benefits of the increased ground clearance the 9t cog allows. I got the impression that some people wanted this new system only because it allows 7 not-close ratio gears, and replied to them.
    I may have misunderstood that, though, wouldn't be the first time.
     
  36. vikingboy

    vikingboy Monkey

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    Some great info in this thread, thanks guys.
    The Canfield axle could be a solution that would allow me to run a 9 tooth rear in the 150mm rear end and still use a smaller (32) tooth cog up front providing the additional ground clearance. A side benefit of this setup is I could run some taller gears to help get to and from the trails rather than be constrained to the 7 speed cassette which I would be if I went with the 135mm rear eqipped “team-replica” version. The additional gearing would be more useful than a 15mm reduction in width at the rear I think.

    From a bit of armchair research, it looks like its possible to mate the lower four cogs from the Capreo cassette (9, 10, 11 & 13 teeth) with the upper 5 (or possibly 6?) from a normal Shimano cassette, Dura-ace/ XT/XTR etc.

    Sheldon Brown breaks down the Capreo cassette here
    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/capreo/index.html

    The standard Capreo cassette comes with 9, 10, 11, 13, 15, 17, 20, 23, 26 cogs.

    Theoretically my ideal cog setup would be 9, 10, 11, 13, 15, 17, 20 ,24 ,28, 32 so just a matter of stretching the lower gears out a bit. Dura-ace doesn’t offer anything suitable so will have to look at MTB cassettes and see what can be canabalised. I think 10 speed can work which will provide a smoother transition up to 32 tooth which would provide the same ratio as a 36 / 11-36 setup which I'm used to on my AM bike.


    SOme links which may be interesting for anyone else considering this route.

    Dura-ace 7900 cassette options (bracket where cogs are fixed together)
    The 11-21 includes - 11,12,13,14,15,16, [17,18], [19,21]
    The 11-23 includes - 11,12,13,14,15,16, [17,19], [21,23]
    The 11-25 includes - 11,12,13,14,15, [17,19], [21,23,25]
    The 11-27 includes - 11,12,13,14,15, [17,19], [21,24,27]
    The 11-28 includes - 11,12,13,14,15, [17,19], [21,24,28]
    The 12-23 includes - 12,13,14,15,16, [17,18], [19,21,23]
    The 12-25 includes - 12,13,14,15,16, [17,19], [21,23,25]
    The 12-27 includes - 12,13,14,15,16, [17,19], [21,24,27]

    Capreo
    http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/t...S/EV-CS-HG70-S-2185_v1_m56577569830608769.pdf

    Capreo
    http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/t...lSystem/SI-6J20B-En_v1_m56577569830604456.pdf

    Capreo axle spec
    http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/t...FH/EV-FH-F700-2184C_v1_m56577569830702944.pdf

    Dura-Ace cassette specs
    http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/t...CS/EV-CS-7900-2869A_v1_m56577569830728250.pdf
     
  37. Dogboy

    Dogboy Turbo Monkey

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    It looks like the Capreo is a 9-speed cassette. You'd probably want to mix that with a DA 7700, Ultegra 6500, XTR M970, or XT M770. Otherwise the spacing between cogs would differ.
     
  38. contactjt

    contactjt Monkey

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    I think wood booger is right Udi. From what i heard the 135mm was to add more heal clearance for Hill & Brendan's 5-10s. Offsetting the narrowed rear to one side would defeat this.

    Wouldn't the chain line be addressed by illuminating the top 2 cogs, I.e. it would only need to be centered in 6th and not 5th?