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2023 session HP DH rig

bullcrew

3 Dude Approved
2023 Trek Session R3
Fox 40 hybrid air titanium coil with an avalanche damper
Marzocchi bomber shock (ohlins on order)
Canfield brothers cranks 155
One up pedals
Renthal bars
Renthal stem
Industry nine hydra wheelset (mullet)
Schwalbe magic Mary super gravity casing 2.6
Procore inserts
Hope v4 blue brakes
GX drivetrain
Deity saddle
Thomson post
Will be sub 39 finished...which my perfect rig weight is around 38....

I'm keeping the m16 fully built so I'm aquiring more parts..
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Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,927
5,830
UK
Microdrive and XD are 11/12 speed only and both can use 10t smallest sprockets. (a 10t really isn't something I'd want on a DH bike)
I'd just fit an HG freehub body to your hub and run an 11-25 shimano cassette. For DH only I'd remove the largest sprockets to leave 11-21 and limit the mech to suit.
SRAM has a 7 spd 11-25 DH cassette (GX version isn't too pricy). But IIRC the sprocket spacing is 11spd. (my memory's shady on that tho)
 

bullcrew

3 Dude Approved
Appreciate that

I was trying to figure out why it was HG on 10sp.. I could jump to 11 but I agree and I'd rather keep a little size to drivetrain as well...So I'll stick with what you said.

I have XD and micro drive freehub for i9 hydra, apparently my HG is missing so I'll order from I9 tomorrow AM..
 

6thElement

Schrodinger's Immigrant
Jul 29, 2008
16,284
13,560
Microdrive and XD are 11/12 speed only and both can use 10t smallest sprockets. (a 10t really isn't something I'd want on a DH bike)
I'd just fit an HG freehub body to your hub and run an 11-25 shimano cassette. For DH only I'd remove the largest sprockets to leave 11-21 and limit the mech to suit.
SRAM has a 7 spd 11-25 DH cassette (GX version isn't too pricy). But IIRC the sprocket spacing is 11spd. (my memory's shady on that tho)
Appreciate that

I was trying to figure out why it was HG on 10sp.. I could jump to 11 but I agree and I'd rather keep a little size to drivetrain as well...So I'll stick with what you said.

I have XD and micro drive freehub for i9 hydra, apparently my HG is missing so I'll order from I9 tomorrow AM..
SRAM 7 speed DH is 11 speed chains.

GX cassette is 11-25 on HG.
X01 cassette is 10-24 on XD
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,927
5,830
UK
Just to add. an 11 speed chain will work fine on a 10 speed cassette (with 10 speed shifter/mech) and a 10 speed chain will also work on an 11 speed cassette (with 11 spd shifter/mech.
Shifters and mechs should be matched to the cassette so if you're sticking with a 10 speed GX shifter and derailleur you'd ideally want a 10 speed spaced cassette. the difference between 10 and 11 spacing isn't massively different though so your GX 10 may well work reasonably well with GX 7spd DH cassettes
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,467
1,682
Warsaw :/
So why not an avalanche shock?

Also I do not accept you on anything that's not a canfield. This is wrong.
 

bullcrew

3 Dude Approved
Only 3 cracked intense frames (1 was a rock to chainstay, ripped it open)...m16 and 951 are solid as hell (so far)...

@slimshady lol It's not 22424532 it's only 224224531, your getting ahead of yourself ...

Not just intense, got several other brands that failed...not just frames...

Yeah been on horn with Lance lately, but have to try stuff to see what's out there. Besides you guys pushed me to ride bigger bikes and now that's being done...

Love my m9 it's on wall now that bike was flat out fast...m16 feels good till I get some actual abusive time on it for a few different locations...

Avalanche is staying on m16 , may resize to session if I'm not a fan of the m16...but if the m16 rides like the m9 set up this way, I won't change it....
 
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buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,805
4,775
Champery, Switzerland
I rode the m16 and session back to back ripping around by house just to get a feel of cornering and playfulness. The m16 is definitely more pocketed and fast feeling...be curious to see a good real ride..
I have short and long reach bikes too. I’m just curious to hear your thoughts! Enjoy yer toys!
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,467
1,682
Warsaw :/
His 22424532 Intense bikes and cracked frames would like to have a word here.
I assume he rides them because he hates them and loves cracking them. Then again isn't Intense run by Crank Bros people? Or am I remembering it wrong? Because if yes then that's on him.


It’ll be interesting if you can still party on the short ones after getting used to the long ones.
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norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,467
1,682
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@norbar apparently yes but mainly in business structure and complete bikes, not involved on change,fab and design etc...my bikes were still made here before they changed manufacturing apparently...
Yeah it just seemed like match in hell given Intense had reliability problems and CB had them too while both companies seemed to really focus on looks instead of fixing those problems. Which is a bummer since I really liked how some Intense bikes looked.
 

bullcrew

3 Dude Approved
Yeah it just seemed like match in hell given Intense had reliability problems and CB had them too while both companies seemed to really focus on looks instead of fixing those problems. Which is a bummer since I really liked how some Intense bikes looked.
Agreed, I love the m9..the m16 alloy is what I have and no desire to swap to a carbon.. looks like they are doing a 951 line, I thought I saw an iteration of another 951 on top of the thing they sold last year...

They had issues with alignment and some good online arguments with the welder years ago, lol...the socom was a scary flimsy frame....you are right I think the hydroform era early on brought in more material confidence looks over reliability ..

That said I do love my 951 Evo (that's a FUN rig) m9 and the m16 are just fast and fun to pocket berms and rip around..
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,467
1,682
Warsaw :/
Agreed, I love the m9..the m16 alloy is what I have and no desire to swap to a carbon.. looks like they are doing a 951 line, I thought I saw an iteration of another 951 on top of the thing they sold last year...

They had issues with alignment and some good online arguments with the welder years ago, lol...the socom was a scary flimsy frame....you are right I think the hydroform era early on brought in more material confidence looks over reliability ..

That said I do love my 951 Evo (that's a FUN rig) m9 and the m16 are just fast and fun to pocket berms and rip around..
The m6's and M9's rode great. Too bad M6 and Socoms were misaligned AF plus the trend of a flat, thin downtube didn't really work well with a bike that received a lot of rockstrikes but everyone was doing that around 2010 (one of the big reasons why I went Banshee and not Trek/Giant/Intense). They were basically as asymetrical in the rear as some frames that did it on purpose.
 

bullcrew

3 Dude Approved
The m6's and M9's rode great. Too bad M6 and Socoms were misaligned AF plus the trend of a flat, thin downtube didn't really work well with a bike that received a lot of rockstrikes but everyone was doing that around 2010 (one of the big reasons why I went Banshee and not Trek/Giant/Intense). They were basically as asymetrical in the rear as some frames that did it on purpose.
2 thumbs up on that Norbar...
Agreed that is exactly my issue with the old stuff when hydroform became the cool thing...a flat thin surface is a weak spot..I prefer tubes...Canfield stayed true to that...the 951 Evo was a big upgrade from that early 951 with g3...buddy snapped head tube off.. socom I got rid of I could press the walls in on it and flex it ..the m9 was a solid frame I smashed it into a lot and the m16 is an jump ahead as well...
Trek Session has a full size downtube guard that's replaceable...plus warranty won't be an issue if I destroy it...but I did flip test the bigger flat sides of the form and it has Ridgidity...it doesn't press in.

Rear triangles are one of my issues my weight and railing a corner flexes the back end and I crack em eventually...the rears on the bikes I have semi stout and I can't feel any nasty flex as of yet...
Lance did a gusset on rear triangle for Jedi, I flexed that rear end all over and it buzzed the stays...he did a gusset and that rear was stout no more buzzing and was stiff ..
 
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norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,467
1,682
Warsaw :/
2 thumbs up on that Norbar...
Agreed that is exactly my issue with the old stuff when hydroform became the cool thing...a flat thin surface is a weak spot..I prefer tubes...Canfield stayed true to that...the 951 Evo was a big upgrade from that early 951 with g3...buddy snapped head tube off.. socom I got rid of I could press the walls in on it and flex it ..the m9 was a solid frame I smashed it into a lot and the m16 is an jump ahead as well...
Trek Session has a full size downtube guard that's replaceable...plus warranty won't be an issue if I destroy it...but I did flip test the bigger flat sides of the form and it has Ridgidity...it doesn't press in.

Rear triangles are one of my issues my weight and railing a corner flexes the back end and I crack em eventually...the rears on the bikes I have semi stout and I can't feel any nasty flex as of yet...
Lance did a gusset on rear triangle for Jedi, I flexed that rear end all over and it buzzed the stays...he did a gusset and that rear was stout no more buzzing and was stiff ..
First year session had no protector (or a very small). Also not sure if it was Giant or Trek that added weight since the frame was too thin. The 3.3-3.4kg alu DH frame trend was dumb af.


As for stiffness - I'm a slow middle aged guy who didn't ride for 3 days but again that's why I liked my Legend. Stiff Af so when I wanted to be stupid and slide into every corner possible the frame felt solid there. I do really want a slacker, 170mm Titan on mullet wheels.
 

canadmos

Cake Tease
May 29, 2011
21,047
20,211
Canaderp
First year session had no protector (or a very small). Also not sure if it was Giant or Trek that added weight since the frame was too thin. The 3.3-3.4kg alu DH frame trend was dumb af.


As for stiffness - I'm a slow middle aged guy who didn't ride for 3 days but again that's why I liked my Legend. Stiff Af so when I wanted to be stupid and slide into every corner possible the frame felt solid there. I do really want a slacker, 170mm Titan on mullet wheels.
Those were the 2008/2009 Trek's I believe. Super thing tubing and people were putting holes in the downtube.


Get a Titan on mullet wheels. Mine with 170mm fork is working well. :)

Its a friggin' heavy pig of a bike, but she goes down very well.
 

mykel

closer to Periwinkle
Apr 19, 2013
5,203
3,948
sw ontario canada

canadmos

Cake Tease
May 29, 2011
21,047
20,211
Canaderp
What constitutes a pig? What does it weigh?
My alloy frame and wheeled 150/135mm full coil trailbike is 36.1lbs
I haven't weighed it, but I'm guessing its 37 pounds or somewhere around there. And this is with EXO tires on it.

I'll see if I can weight it sometime this week.

But even with the weight, it pedals pretty well and I'm not worried about any parts on it one bit. Its ready for Bromont and BC this summer. :)
 

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
2,089
1,319
Styria
Mine is sub 16 kg/35 lbs with Smashpot 36, Storia, XT cranks, 11spd X01 drivetrain, DT wheels, Exo+ f DD r tyre and other non stupid parts.
 

bullcrew

3 Dude Approved
Evil is 34lbs, 951 is 37lbs, m16 is 38lbs session is 39lbs (but going to drop a smidge)..

I can't ride a bike that I need to abuse lower than 37 it deflects too much...it's nice for whipping and ripping but when shit gets nasty it's like a damn pinball...

Didn't shave weight on any of them, they all have procore inserts heavier tires, and aside of evil they are coil and session is coil front and rear.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,467
1,682
Warsaw :/
Those were the 2008/2009 Trek's I believe. Super thing tubing and people were putting holes in the downtube.


Get a Titan on mullet wheels. Mine with 170mm fork is working well. :)

Its a friggin' heavy pig of a bike, but she goes down very well.
Ok I missed they made a mullet version and now you made me really tempted. The looks annoy me but I like everything else about it but I just got a bike late 2022 so if I get one it will not be soon.

Re. Treks - yeah I forgot which year sessions first appeared. First year was crap. Local pros seemed not to kill laters models as much.
 

englertracing

you owe me a sandwich
Mar 5, 2012
1,590
1,086
La Verne
I do prefer the look of the m16 over the trekView attachment 192832View attachment 192834
Personally I dont like the looks of the sta on the intense major turn off for me, butterface..... rest of the frame looks nice.

How's the topout clunk on that avalanche with no Hydraulic topout system? Was pretty bad on my mondraker with the chubby.

Are you going to put a lower roller on the trek? Needs one.... or else the derailuer is going to get worked all the time.......
 

bullcrew

3 Dude Approved
Personally I dont like the looks of the sta on the intense major turn off for me, butterface..... rest of the frame looks nice.

How's the topout clunk on that avalanche with no Hydraulic topout system? Was pretty bad on my mondraker with the chubby.

Are you going to put a lower roller on the trek? Needs one.... or else the derailuer is going to get worked all the time.......
Yeah lower guide has been ordered already, brakes I'll slap on still... No top out on avalanche I've launched it a ton of times from compressed to airborn and rocks...it's dead silent...the m9 all you heard was tires thumping on rocks...maybe yours had an issue..
Yeah I need to do a 7 speed on trek as well, the top 2 gears are to angled for the idler ....

Can't fault the woodie, favorite shock I've ran...

IMG_20221012_231005_170.jpg
 
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englertracing

you owe me a sandwich
Mar 5, 2012
1,590
1,086
La Verne
Yeah lower guide has been ordered already, brakes I'll slap on still... No top out on avalanche I've launched it a ton of times from compressed to airborn and rocks...it's dead silent...the m9 all you heard was tires thumping on rocks...maybe yours had an issue..
Yeah I need to do a 7 speed on trek as well, the top 2 gears are to angled for the idler ....

Can't fault the woodie, favorite shock I've ran...

View attachment 192835
Personally I think Craig is a bitch, and his shocks suck. Clunked as delivered, had super low compression damping Mabe enough for a little girl on her first bike, but enough rebound for a spring that belongs in a 1 ton truck, packed like nobody's business. I asked Craig to lighten the rebound he wouldn't do it even for money so I had to use restackor and figured out how to make it work right.

had to make parts to alleviate the clunk, a top out spring system. The parts seen on the shaft, stock part is below.
20210116_191154.jpg


A good coil like a fox rc2 or 4 has the rebound port enter the bushing to create a hydraulic top out. While the avalanche uses nothing but ramming a plate into a quadring. Going back to back on a shock with and without hto is very obvious.

Not sure if it's just the classic intense who done it leverage ratio but the mondraker is pretty damn progressive and has a very high starting LR.

Also popped based hsc adjusters are dumb.

You won't catch me drooling over or stroking it to woodies or chubbies but Craig can stick em where the sun don't shine.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,467
1,682
Warsaw :/
How much do you think DH frames weigh now?
Alu ones since I spoke about alu ones specifically? It depends on the manufacturer. Some are lighter, some are heavier from what I've seen but at least from the 2008-2011 first batch of lightweight frames all of them had issues. Not all of them cracked but some were prone to rock strikes and were generaly not too happy if you were prone to crashes. I know the Gambler Carbon is light but that's carbon.

Are you saying there are durable 3.3kg frames made from aluminium now? I mean dumb person durable. I know the Gambler Alu is slightly above that at ca 3.5kg but that seems more reasonable and around the weight Trek went up to with their session after first gen issues.
 
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buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,805
4,775
Champery, Switzerland
Alu ones since I spoke about alu ones specifically? It depends on the manufacturer. Some are lighter, some are heavier from what I've seen but at least from the 2008-2011 first batch of lightweight frames all of them had issues. Not all of them cracked but some were prone to rock strikes and were generaly not too happy if you were prone to crashes.

Are you saying there are durable 3.3kg frames made from aluminium now? I mean dumb person durable.
Yeah, I think there are durable frames at that weight. Some frames snap at 4.2kg. You are only as strong as your weakest link and overall frame weight doesn’t mean it won’t break, imo.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,467
1,682
Warsaw :/
Yeah, I think there are durable frames at that weight. Some frames snap at 4.2kg. You are only as strong as your weakest link and overall frame weight doesn’t mean it won’t break, imo.
I think you read to much into my comment and assumed I was saying more than I did.

Never said that more weight guarantees durability. It doesn't. Banshee Scream had durability issues, one year of those old heavy pre 2010 Giant Glories snapped. Hell plenty of modern, rather heavy frames are known for going to snap city. (took a risk on a capra so yeah. I might learn the hard way)

This doesn't change the fact there seems to be a limit to how light you can make an aluminium frame. Sure you can calculate it perfectly so if you use it "correctly" it won't snap but we all make mistakes and that extra weight means a bike may survive them. So what guarantees durability is good engineering and testing. Still if you want a durable frame and know it's well engineered the heavier one might be more abuse resistant if that was the goal of the makers.

Plus what started this talk was the old trend of a perfectly flat, rather thin alu downtube was a very bad idea unless you liked the looks of a 1999 Kona Stab. Modern light alu bikes are better.
 
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Avy

Turbo Monkey
Jan 24, 2006
1,216
415
Personally I think Craig is a bitch, and his shocks suck. Clunked as delivered, had super low compression damping Mabe enough for a little girl on her first bike, but enough rebound for a spring that belongs in a 1 ton truck, packed like nobody's business. I asked Craig to lighten the rebound he wouldn't do it even for money so I had to use restackor and figured out how to make it work right.

had to make parts to alleviate the clunk, a top out spring system. The parts seen on the shaft, stock part is below.
View attachment 192836

A good coil like a fox rc2 or 4 has the rebound port enter the bushing to create a hydraulic top out. While the avalanche uses nothing but ramming a plate into a quadring. Going back to back on a shock with and without hto is very obvious.

Not sure if it's just the classic intense who done it leverage ratio but the mondraker is pretty damn progressive and has a very high starting LR.

Also popped based hsc adjusters are dumb.

You won't catch me drooling over or stroking it to woodies or chubbies but Craig can stick em where the sun don't shine.
I Love the passion Brother. I’m sorry things did not work out for you. I have ran Avy for years and I am happy. I know Craig has a certain way of dealing with people that really piss them off.

What about now? What shock are you Rockin and what Bike? Are you happy? What is the shocks weak spot?
Thank’s.

Avy
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,467
1,682
Warsaw :/
The socom was the scariest frame I have had...it literally was paper thin and you could push the sides in with your fingers...messed with it a smidge and sold it right away


Round tubes is the best structural shape imo...gussets and double shear near high torsional points.
That time was a weird time for low weight bikes. Carbon wasn't in yet and there was a big push for low weights. Not only in DH. In DJ there was the same problem and I remember a viral vid in the dirt community of some mad russian literally kicking off the top tube off a NS suburban steel frame. While not normal riding you should not be able to easily break steel tubes