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'23 US Open

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,426
5,342
UK
There's been a few instances of people calling others bigots. But I'm yet to see any evidence of bigotry and it's just been a throwaway line... What happened to good faith arguments?
Normally I respect @kidwoo and his views and genuinely tend to agree with his take on most subjects whether that be biking or life in general as its fairly clear from 20 years of reading his posts here he's quite an intelligent guy who tends to use common sense, reasoning and experience before making a bold statement. But I'm really not too sure WTF has happend to him recently or where he's coming from on this one.
I was tempted to let this one go but fuck that! This needs saying.
For reference. I'm actually the parent of an adult trans person. (over 21 but I'll respectfully leave any more personal details out of this).
I'm also the parent of a teenage girl playing football (soccer to you guys) at the highest national level with hopes of one day progressing far enough to have a shot at a professional career. She has played with and against boys from the age of 4 as girls only academy football doesn't become an option until the age of 8 here. But now 14 and playing in U16 National academy program (for the past 5yrs) has to deal with playing Girls football alongside, against and sharing womens only training/changing facilities with biological males claiming to be trans.
I'm not that frequent a user of the lounge but I'm fairly sure you're not a parent (CMIIW?) @kidwoo but surely you can still see the glaringly obvious issue there?
But even forgetting about that 'small' (yeah. Right) matter for a minute. I know you like facts. And it is an undisputable medical fact that changing ones gender, name, birth certificate and even going to the lengths of surgically and chemically altering ones body to appear as the gender you now choose to be seen as will never change your biological birth sex or chromosomes/DNA. One massively worrying thing about the mass uptake of medical transgender treatment as a solution to gender dysphoria is that there is very little mention anywhere of the huge damage even hormone use nevermind full physical transitioning procedures do to ones body. leaving full transitioners with huge new life long medical implications from then on which are wholly irreversible.
Trust me. I'm not some thick knuckle dragging ignorant fuckwit making wild exclusionary statements to middle aged men on a hobby forum. Ive done a shit ton of research on this over a fair few years now. For obvious reasons.

Choosing not to accept another human as a sex which differs to their biological birth sex isn't something to be banded about as some sort of crime.

Let's get this straight. Once and for all. "Gender" has suddenly become a negotiable commodity. "Sex" never will be. And the implications on Women's rights are massive when this is ignored.

As for me being called a bigot. I don't actually care what "gender" anyone wants to call themselves so long as its not harming others or encroaching on others basic human rights. I accept and respect all people whatever race, gender, nationality, sexuality and even religious beliefs. (even if I disagree with the last one)

If you really still think I'm a "bigot" there's really no hope for us to come to any sort of understanding on this.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Let's get this straight. Once and for all. "Gender" has suddenly become a negotiable commodity. "Sex" never will be. And the implications on Women's rights are massive when this is ignored.
"suddenly" just shows how truly ignorant you really are on this

I don't actually care what "gender" anyone wants to call themselves so long as its not harming others or encroaching on others basic human rights.
but you do care. either that or you think placing in a damn mountainbike race is a human right


It's cool. Some of my best friends are black, I can't be racist. That's what you just said.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,426
5,342
UK
Really?

After reading all that. You pick up on the word "Suddenly"? Yes. "Suddenly". in the history of the human race. the shift has been rather sudden.

you think placing in a damn mountainbike race is a human right
Yes. Of course a professional career in a sport competing against the same sex is a human right. FFS!

And seriously?
Some of my best friends are black, I can't be racist. That's what you just said.
Fuck off with this stupid weak unsubstantiated statement.

You just lost a whole load of my respect bud..

I do hope you're doing ok tho.
 
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kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Really?

After reading all that. You pick up on the word "Suddenly"? Yes. "Suddenly". in the history of the human race. the shift has been rather sudden.

Yes. Of course a professional career in a sport competing against the same sex is a human right. FFS!

And seriously?
Fuck off with this stupid weak unsubstantiated statement.

You just lost a whole load of my respect bud..

I do hope you're doing ok tho.
Don't tag me if you don't want to hear from me. I obviously have no idea what goes on in your head but I grew up in a town with KKK cross burnings at the bmx track we raced on weekends and 'fag bashing' was a drunk frat boy thing as common as date rape. You may not be a bigot but you sure use the language of one very well. As a trans expert, you should know that post I responded to is equivalent to dead naming. Which of course being the expert you are, you'll know exactly what that means.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,426
5,342
UK
if you don't want to hear from me.
I very much did want to hear from you. Just disappointed at what I read.
You've changed recently. and I'm not the only one to be concerned.
grew up in a town with...
Genuinely sorry to hear that man. But None of that has any relevance at all to anything I said. Where/when I grew up bigotry was far more religion based. But yes. plenty of homophobia, sexism and racism. and some pretty fucked up goings on too. Thank fuck things are changing!

Of course I know what dead naming is FFS! I have very strong views on "dead naming". Having been primary care giver to the trans adult I mentioned earlier from birth until teens. Having a child change gender will do that to you. I don't expect you to unsderstand this.

Suggesting we MUST always refer to a person by their post-transition name when talking about every single thing they did in life prior is actually insane.
Eg. "Guys.Remember that time we had a pissing contest and Katie beat us all pissing clean over the wall"?
Anton's pre-transition racing results still stand in Anton's name. and to change that name would also be insane.
Talking of insanity. surely you're aware that a history of Mental health issues is pretty huge within a large percentage of the trans community.
 
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kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Just disappointed at what I read.
You've changed recently. and I'm not the only one to be concerned.
I'm just over listening to people casually dehumanize whatever 'other' is the hot topic of the day. I mentioned where I grew up because I was literally saturated with it. I'm just not going to listen to it anymore without speaking up. And yes there are some very good reasons for that.


Of course I know what dead naming is FFS! I have very strong views on "dead naming".
Obviously

Asshole.

The need to do that comes from your own insecurity to frame the existence of another human being in only the way in which YOU are comfortable, regardless of god know's what they've already put up with. That makes you a fucking bigot. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt of just sloppy language. Thanks for finally clearing it up.
 

sethimus

neu bizutch
Feb 5, 2006
4,775
2,066
not in Whistler anymore :/
but what if anton wasn‘t into gender changing but legs removing, and a former 100m sprinter. and he won a gold medal. did he then win a gold medal in 100m wheel chair racing after his transition?
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,426
5,342
UK
No. it doesn't come from there at all.
I'm perfectly comfortable with any trans person and their new identity from the moment they transitioned.
I'm not so comfortable with changing history or memories to suit what's in someone elses head.

I've genuinely never thought of misgendering as "dehumanising".
I think that's the wrong word really. (honestly not grammatical point scoring here)

I wasn't going to bring my own experience of homophobiia into this. Being older than you I was in my teens in the 80s and from the age of 14 to about 24 I was subject to physical and emotional abuse including physical assault and hospitalization from homophobes myself. Shit like this is extremely rare here nowadays. Thank fuck!
I may have more personal experience than you think about
god know's what they've already put up with.
.
 
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kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I've genuinely never thought of misgendering as "dehumanising".
Obviously not. Sounds like there's someone you could ask who's opinion carries a little more weight than yours.


I wasn't going to bring my own experience of homophobiia into this. Being older than you I was in my teens in the 80s and from the age of 14 to about 24 I was subject to physical and emotional abuse including physical assault and hospitalization from homophobes myself. Shit like this is extremely rare here nowadays. Thank fuck!
I may have more personal experience than you think about .
Right, so you remember how thegays™ were going to destroy families, come for your kids, somehow got more blood libel shit thrown on them because that's what crazy people do......all if we acknowledged their humanity and *gasp* let people be themselves openly and even marry

So the bigots lost that one. And they know it. Trans issues are a way to relive that fight with a new other. A way to scare idiots that someone's coming for their kids, it's the end of family values, sports, whatever. They know this is an easy target just like homosexuality was in the 80s. Since then the ability for gay people to openly share who they are with people without fear of getting their heads bashed in made everyone realize that they actually have friends and maybe even family are gay. The propaganda doesn't work anymore because people were allowed to be truthful. All the same dynamics apply here. There's nothing 'sudden' about trans issues. The bigots just picked up on the fact that there's another population that makes them uncomfortable. Michelle Dumaresq went through all this same shit 20 years ago.

And like it or not, you talk like one of them when you don't even acknowledge that refusing to even recognize someone for who they are, is dehumanizing.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,426
5,342
UK
Recognising someone for who they are now, but refusing to forgetting who they were previously. is not dehumanising them.
I don't see you (or anyone else) how that person sees themselves. I never will or ever could. and how that person sees me will never align with how I see myself.

Yes. i remember hearing about Michelle back then. And yes of course way before then there were people who also felt they'd been born into the wrong body.
You need to stop fixating on me using the word "sudden".

Your experience of LGBT+ propoganda (negative and positive) is probably very different to mine here. and infact many nations/continents. So we'll be unlikely to have the same view on that.
Running around calling everyone with a slightly different experience to yours an asshole and a bigot probably isn't helping anyone.
 
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kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Recognising someone for who they are now, but refusing to forgetting who they were previously. is not dehumanising them.
I'm not going to defer to you as the arbiter of that. Your insistence on dead naming kate weatherly is you exerting all the biggoted flex I'm going to keep calling out. Unless of course you asked her? In short, it's not really up to you who someone else is. It just looks like you putting someone in their place. Just so YOU are comfortable.

If not you and tahnee's dad can bitch about the trannies™ in sports over beer. Old white men have been doing it for centuries with every other subjugated population. It's a well worn barstool.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,426
5,342
UK
Your insistence on dead naming kate weatherly is you exerting all the biggoted flex I'm going to keep calling out. Unless of course you asked her? In short, it's not really up to you who someone else is. It just looks like you putting someone in their place. Just so YOU are comfortable.
That's bullshit mate.
Any name other than that in reference to those pre-transition results simply makes no fucking sense.
I've no interest in putting anyone in "their place". I'm not uncomfortable in the slightest with any trans person's choice. I don't have a trans/homohobic/hateful molecule in my brain.

Stop judging others based on the bigotry you seem to have around YOU.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,426
5,342
UK
Same as whenever I use the (dead)name I actually chose on delivery into this terrible world to recall any memory of MINE from back when that name was currently in use.

 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
You know how all trans people should be addressed without asking a single one of them, even when one of them is your own family. Got it.

All the effort of a bigot who shall therefore remain as such because simply asking someone involved is too uncomfortable.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,426
5,342
UK
Of course I've asked. that and many many more questions
FFS!

That was my point in my previous reply
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Of course I've asked. that and many many more questions
FFS!

That was my point in my previous reply

Same as whenever I use the (dead)name I actually chose on delivery into this terrible world to recall any memory of MINE from back when that name was currently in use.

sorry that's not exactly clear

Now ask kate

I genuinely hope your kid isn't bothered by it and isn't just lying to their parents like we all did just to get along.

Imma disappear in the desert for a few days with a dirtbike so rather than come back to dumb terrier pics I'll just make my point: if people didn't have a problem with dead naming, you wouldn't know about it. Because lots of people do.
 
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Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,426
5,342
UK
Now ask kate
Again? When Kate lost her shit last time I did?

if people didn't have a problem with dead naming, you wouldn't know about it.
Yes. That's very true. I found out about "deadnaming" because we talked this whole thing through at length. Me and my child.

have a good trip.
 

aaronjb

Turbo Monkey
Jul 22, 2010
1,105
659
Look, Greg Herbold cutting the course in 1990 is the controversy that can unite us if we rally.